Do Something About Serration And Hornet Strike.

[Dasmir]

That's the idea. 

 

So whats next ? complaing about the new mandatory mods until DE nerf them again ?

 

Tsk-Tsk.......

[izzatuw]

So whats next ? complaing about the new mandatory mods until DE nerf them again ?

 

Tsk-Tsk.......

Than remove the mods ofc

[gnat6]

The problem is not really the mods like serration and hornet strike the problem is that the mod system is being used for both customization and progression and the fact that the limited slots and bullet sponge enemies force you to chose between them

and indirectly part of the problem is due to the ammo system because there are many guns automatic pistols especially that are basically impossible to keep from running out of ammo unless you build for max dps or spam ammo restores which is the main reason I usually build for max dps because there is nothing I hate more than running out of ammo.

[Kruglov]

I think they're fine as they are.

 

The problem is their rarity.

 

You are right, EVERY GUN IN THE GAME needs these mods to be viable.

So why are they so rare? It's silly.

[shut]

Let me explain then.

 

These mods are made "essential" because they are very good at what they are made to do. They raise ALL damage, including physical and elemental damage. When you have a warframe/weapon/mod that is good at what it does, it is going to become seemingly required because it is effective. Serration/Hornet Strike are not required, of course, but, again, people like them a lot.

 

From the OP: "They're overpowered..." They can be, it depends on the base damage of the weapon, but it doesn't do much to an Mk-1 Braton if you want to kill things very quickly before they rip you apart in an endless T4. "...and add nothing to customisation or the game." Total fallacy. They damn well do. I want to customize my weapon to do more overall damage instead of being more accurate or being able to shoot faster. Again, they only seem like they are required mods because "more overall base damage" is very appealing compaired to "reload speed" or "ammo max".

 

As stated many times before, there is nothing stopping you from just removing the mod from your loadout. Drag and drop. You don't need to ask the devs to change parts of the game based on a singular taste.

 

So........ No.

 

It's nice to see that you can actually post your reasoning. Shame that the same can't be said for a good chunk of the other posters in this thread, and this goes for posters on both sides of this discussion.

 

I'm with you in that the mods don't need to be removed from the game or anything (not yet, anyways), but the problem that I see with Serration and Hornet Strike is that they basically are required.

The point of weapons is to be able to kill things, and no matter how much utility they have, they will fail to accomplish this without damage-- and Serration/Hornet Strike do this job better than any other mod in the game, meaning that they are literally the last mod that you will consider removing to free up a slot for Fast Hands. This is what I see as the problem-- it actively discourages build variety.

 

Can builds without Serration and Hornet Strike do well in later levels? Of course-- but, they will only do so in the same way that a well-modded MK1-Braton can hold its own ground in a T4 Survival. The problem isn't that it's ineffective, it's that you are actively gimping yourself for nothing in return. I mean, yeah, you've got that spare slot now (which can't be said for the MK1), but what good is a boost in extra accuracy, or reload speed, or ammo economy on a gun if you reduced the weapon's damage by 60% just to free that slot up? No matter what your playstyle, it's simply not worth it. No mod is.

 

 

 

But, again-- as I said in the original post, removing Serration and Hornet Strike from the game will accomplish nothing without a full overhaul to the mod and enemy scaling systems, such that all mods can be equally viable depending on your playstyle. Until that day comes, I'd much rather simply see buffs to our current utility mods, to at least make them viable options compared to simple damage stacking. And until that day comes, I'm pretty okay with our current system.

Edited October 24, 2014 by SortaRandom

[R34LM]

But, again-- as I said in the original post, removing Serration and Hornet Strike from the game will accomplish nothing without a full overhaul to the mod and enemy scaling systems, such that all mods can be equally viable depending on your playstyle. Until that day comes, I'd much rather simply see buffs to our current utility mods, to at least make them viable options compared to simple damage stacking. And until that day comes, I'm pretty okay with our current system.

Pretty much. It's like Blessing, Radial Blind and other reported overpowered things. The devs kind of let it happen; the mods in question have been around for a long time, so it is deeply rooted into the gameplay.

[crafturtoemc]

Serration and Hornet strike dont deserve this kind of stuff....NOPE = NOPE, DE's not gonna do it

[Neocyberman]

I agree with the OP. 

 

Could have stated his points better. Absolute raw damage mods take away something from the modding system. They make it about damage output rather than performance. Which leads to other design decisions about scaling. It is partially for the fault of raw damage and raw damage type mods that we don't have gameplay that gets increasingly difficult as you get further into the map.

[Dasmir]

Than remove the mods ofc

 

Soon every damage mod will be removed and only the ultility ones will remain................until people start complaining about mandatory utility mods so they will get rid of them too !

 

pretty much the logic behind this thread.

[Neocyberman]

Soon every damage mod will be removed and only the ultility ones will remain................until people start complaining about mandatory utility mods so they will get rid of them too !

 

pretty much the logic behind this thread.

Maybe the game should not reward one over the other. Also, you know, slippery slope.

[Dasmir]

Maybe the game should not reward one over the other. Also, you know, slippery slope.

 

Warframe is made around progresion and power creep, DE loves power creep as a way to show the player they are getting "further" in the game so isnt going to happen

 

The mod system is the biggest example of this with the weapons.

[Neocyberman]

Warframe is made around progresion and power creep, DE loves power creep as a way to show the player they are getting "further" in the game so isnt going to happen

 

The mod system is the biggest example of this with the weapons.

Judging from your post count and badge you have been here longer than me.

 

I'm not really too new and not old at all. But can I tell you as a newer player that this form of progression burns me the heck out? Because warframes progression is based so much on damage rather than a combination of damage and skill, damage above anything is rewarded. What happens is that armour and health and damage from enemies scale so much that shear utility trumps.

 

The reason this causes burn out from my perspective is that I feel like I have learned not much in terms of skill required to progress and feel like I've essentially gone nowhere. Because the game relies on its scaling, and its repetition and damage over utility or utility above all fun seeps out. My ability to play isnt rewarded. Its made me loose faith in the game direction, and made me not want to contribute.

 

Thats what the focus on this sort of scaling does. It slowly drives a lot of the meta issues with the game.

Edited October 24, 2014 by Neocyberman

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

I think the problem with the OP's post is that s/he doesn't focus enough on how the rest of the game would have to change. I agree that Serration and Hornet Strike should be nerfed all the way down into the +20% damage range, but along with that an entire rebalancing of mods and enemy scaling would have to happen. It's not enough to nerf Serration into the ground but leave multishot and all the elementals the way they are, as you'll quickly find them to be worse; players will end up slapping on all the other damage mods they can and actually decreasing diversity. Multishot would have to split the base damage in half as well, and the benefit would be for giving each half a chance at causing a critical or status hit. Elementals would have to convert a portion of the base damage to the element damage. I don't know if there would be an obvious choice for physical damage mods; giving them the same treatment as elementals would mean the inherent type of physical damage would matter much less. I personally would simply tie them to status, and say equipping those mods increases the chance of that proc happening instead of increasing the damage.

 

Enemy scaling would have to end as well. I would love for this to happen, but realistically I doubt it because everything would need to be rebalanced. Still, as this is the forums and I can hope, I would say that DE would be best off splitting the factions into three or four "levels" that do different amounts of damage and have different amounts of health: a "grunt" level with very weak enemies, a "leader" level with very strong enemies, and some levels in between. That way people who love feeling powerful can beat down on some grunts (not to the degree that we slaughter low level enemies now), while players who like challenge could fight the leaders. And with this, new players wouldn't feel ineffective and older players wouldn't feel bored.

 

But for this to happen, enemies would need to diversify, with occasional enemies that require more advanced skill to defeat. As it is now, players have all the skill they need by Neptune (if they don't learn quickly), and that hampers the sense of progression by making us feel like progression is only a numbers game. It's not about the cool, different mods we equip; it's about the ones that provide the biggest numbers. And without Serration and scaling, we'd quickly realize there's little in the way of difficult enemies that change our approaches to combat. In fact, in most factions players have seen nearly every enemy type by the fourth or fifth planet.

 

I saw that people were saying not to ask for a rework of mods until enemy scaling was changed. In reality, both would have to happen at the same time. Otherwise, if enemies changed first, either new players would be hopeless or old players would be able to play endless missions without trying.

 

So my point is this: A rework in Serration, Hornet Strike, and the other damage increasing mods would be beneficial for the game. But that would require lots of reworks. I think they'd be better for the game too, but the reality is DE's making money and I doubt they'd risk that by changing the game's foundation.

[DSpite]

EDIT:

Posts like these need to be punishable in the Feedback sections. No matter how many players agree or disagree with your opinion, this is hardly more than mindless spam in terms of how much it contributes to a rational discussion. You are doing nothing to improve the state of our game.

 

I'm sorry, but how many Innocent_Flower threads have you been in?

 

After you come across enough posts, you will discover that a single "no" is more then enough feedback for him as he has already made up his mind, and "feedback" is not what he's after.

 

For the millionth time, this game is about "personal fun" and not about scoreboards or killboards or names up in lights. No one gives a rats if you can go 4 hours on T4  survival using some tactic or even a glitch, other then maybe DE, and then purely to stop people "not playing the game as intended".

 

Let DE deal with "balance" as they see fit - and for the record, they are not blind or stupid, so people need to stop trying to "point out things" like DE is completely unaware of them, because they are not, they have massive amounts of game logs that show exactly what people are using and how they are using them - and instead focus on the fact that this is a free game and is meant to be played for personal entertainment.

 

If you no longer find the game fun or seem to be unable to not equip a maxed Serration or Hornet Strike, rather then sell the damn thing and level a new one for example, then you need to go play something else, because you have no impulse control or even common sense.

 

Every player has already the tools to make their own fun, why they choose not to use them is their problem.

[fatpig84]

Only time i accept their removal is when upon leveling your guns to 30.

They also get 165% and 240% respectively lolwut.

[SIDESTRE4M]

Yeah right, remove one of the few real progress bars and rework them into laziness. :D

[BizarreFetalChimpanzee]

I'm actually gonna have to agree with the OP on this one. Many of us have been asking for genuine difficulty rather than bullet sponges for quite some time, and I personally think that removing the direct damage mods outright is a step toward the direction of genuinely difficult enemies.

[StinkyPygmy]

I like how a lot of the posters that refuse to contribute in any meaningful way except "no" or similar are ignoring the key point behind the idea: That a change like this would obviously lead to an improvement in the modding system and gameplay, including enemy scaling.

No one is suggesting "remove it because I don't like it". What is being suggested is that what we have currently is a case of false choice and effectively redundant content that adds nothing meaningful.

 

If the mechanics were overhauled to not be dependent on pure dmg mods in such a way that more creativity was available without harming those of you that want to be gods 99% of the time, then what would the issue be? Sure I can choose to not use serration, and in fact I rarely do. It still doesn't change the fact endless scaling is still a problem and pure dmg mods add about as much to the gamplay as a wet rag.

 

The argument that people will be suggesting the removal of the next line of essential mods to take its place in an endless loop is laughable, because if its done right that wont be the case. At any rate the next line of essential mods, were pure dmg to be removed (likely elementals) at least add something  a bit more customizable and relevant to gameplay. If they were seen as essential mods, no one would be suggesting their removal or nerf for a lack of dynamics gameplay value at least. That argument holds no water.

 

Alas, the potential rework or addition to a system is scary, because "OH NO CHANGE BAD!".  

Of course if forum goers of that opinion had their way very little would change at all. Something that is only made more evident by the passive aggressiveness directed the way of anyone even suggesting an idea they don't agree with. This could potentially be a step in making things better. 

 

At the end of the day I'm not going to be bothered too much if nothing changes in that regard, but I'll be disappointed that improvements that could potentially benefit everybody wouldn't be made. As much as I love this game there is parctically no sense of progression and very little to reward the player. Its slap on some mods and win till you break the game.

Edited October 24, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[SIDESTRE4M]

So people will just equip another elemental instead... or more fire rate. Genius.

 

Then let's remove progress and levels and introduce "genuinely difficult" enemies that at the highest difficulty punish everything with one-hit kills... wait. we already have that.

 

Please describe genuinely difficulty.

 

Is it patterns? Mechanics? More punishments?

 

Do people even know what they are asking for?

 

I only read: remove those mods and everything will be better.

 

EDIT: To be more precise:

 

Just removing one game component does only worse for the game.

So it creates a chain reaction of things to be done.

 

Step 1: Remove simple damage mods.

Step X:

Final step: Better game.

 

... just doesn't cut it.

 

You guys want the change, so it's up to you to come up with a concept. This step will cause a chain reaction until we have warframe 2.0, so just one step won't do.

Edited October 24, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[Liminal]

IMO the whole game needs to be rebalanced, and these mods are part of the problem.

[Innocent_Flower]

I like how supporting arguments for such a change seem to be better thought out than the "No"'s from people who haven't considered the posibilities. 

 

 

 

I think I'll take on that my OP isn't great and will take some steps to better it. 

[SleepingSentry]

So remove hornet strike and use another elemental mod in it's place?  That would sure fix a lot, for a lot of work.  May as well remove split chamber while you're at it, so we can replace that with another damage increasing mod.

 

What we need are new mods and mod buffs, new mods are coming in U15 we'll see how that goes.

 

As for adding difficulty, there are a ton of different ways to go about that even within the standard RPG formula.  Too numerous for me to list again.

Edited October 24, 2014 by SleepingSentry

[(PSN)jwernecke]

I agree... Completely rework the entire game structure.. The mods are op so take them away... On second thought the guns could hurt people so let's remove those... Oh and we don't want anyone to cut themselves so cut all the blades, clubs, staffs, whips... From the game... Now change the title of the game too because warframe sounds mean and violent... How about rainbow debates... We can sit at multicolored tables and talk about our issues with the grineer and corpus like good little balls of light...oh I missed taking the frames out too because they were only designed for violence.

Edited October 24, 2014 by (PS4)jwernecke

[SIDESTRE4M]

I like how supporting arguments for such a change seem to be better thought out than the "No"'s from people who haven't considered the posibilities. 

 

 

 

I think I'll take on that my OP isn't great and will take some steps to better it. 

The problem is not, that you aren't wrong. But you aren't exactly right either.

 

First you have to understand what purpose Serration or Hornet Strike have.

 

Serration for example is a mod, that accompanies you through the game. At first it boosts you a little bit, and then more and more through out the game. So in a way it is your progress that results in more damage.

 

It also already comes with a downside. It uses up many points. So you have to put more work into weapons when it is maxed. It all ends up in an equation like this: result through work. And this is progress. People who are playing longer have access to more damage, which also comes at a higher price.

 

Your suggestion with dual stat mods isn't bad, but it does nothing more than making other mods obsolete as well.

 

No one would equip more damage if it isn't needed so, if you don't need it for T4, then utility would take the place of Serration and other auto-includes would see the light.

 

It isn't really that simple and it creates a huge chain reactions of thing to be done.

Edited October 24, 2014 by SIDESTRE4M

[Innocent_Flower]

Dual stat mods would probably make more mods neccessary. You might want an anti-recoil mod to deal with the extra recoil- You could have a more powerful gorgon with mighty kick or a mighty gorgon with a slower rate of fire. You could have an extremely inaccurate gorgon that could still be very effective at short ranges and against crowds. 

 

With the +damage+recoil mod You might be fine with the extra recoil. You might take steps to counter it. I don't see how it could make other mods obsolete. 

 

 

People would equip more damage, even if it wasn't neccessary. Maybe increasing your rate of fire rather than damage per bullet is a better path to a better DPS... But it'd also be more ammo inefficient and some weapons just can't deal with that. 

Edited October 24, 2014 by Innocent_Flower