# Syndicate Syndicate Syndicate - The Math Behind The Grind

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Let me make this note far in advance of everything else I have to say here. I am a long time player and fan of this game, regardless of the changes it all goes through, sometimes there are situations that should be rectified. I believe this is one of those times. I do not come here to complain, simply, to raise the awareness of our community of players. I have poured my love into this game and could not be happier with what I have been given. That being said, I present to you the simply facts and mathematical equations for the lovely syndicates that have been added (and a suggestion on how to perhaps make it achievable)

The Math behind the Grind (or the madness if you will)

Upon reaching Associate rank in your chosen syndicate you will lose the 5,000 reputation points you have acquired. Bye bye.

Considering that, lets break down simply the rewards first (I use The Perrin Sequence as my example - assuming the reward costs line up with the others).

To obtain 1 of every reward from the syndicate it will run you the hefty penny of 416,500 reputation points. (mind you this is without the cost of actually advancing levels... remember that 5000 that  went *poof* ). So how long does 416,500 points take to acquire? Well, I'm glad you asked. For me, when I started getting points I ran everyone's favorite Sechura - Pluto. I found that in about 10 games of 15 rounds I could get about 5,000 points.

So that's,   15 minutes x  10 games  = 5000 points.  150 minutes to achieve 5000 points if you do the math.

So lets take our 416,500 points and divide it by 5000.  That will get you roughly 83.3. You are going to take that number and multiply it by 150 minutes to get your total number of minutes to achieve 416,500 points. Then take those minutes divide by 60 for hours, and then 24 for days.

416,500 / 5000 = 83.3                83.3 x 150 =  12,495 minutes        12,495 / 60 = 208.25 hours      208.25 hours / 24 = 8.7 days

It will take you approximately 8.7 straight days (no sleep, not eating, no working, no playing with fuzzy animals....nothing)  in order to get 416,500 points just to have enough for the rewards. Mind you, that doesn't include ranking up costs. Take that number and lets multiply it by 6 for all 6 syndicates.

8.7 x 6 = 52 days of straight syndicate grinds.

That being said, this does not take into account Syndicate Alerts, Ally Reputation, Opposed Reputation, or Enemy Reputation. Now while I'm all for end-game, this even seems a bit much to me...  and I play the game all the time.

My suggestion to try to make this easier on our players?   Change the rewards for your syndicate into credit purchases. Before you complain that that's too easy and people have money, consider this; Even if we change it to credits, you still have to work for promotion in standing points, that wont change. And if we change do change it to credits... 416,500 is not a laughable amount to the vast majority of players.. that's a huge cost. If that was credit based you are looking at 2,499,000 credits to get all the rewards (just once) from every syndicate.. not to mention the standing points and the points to rank up. Its not a perfect solution, but it will make the players feel the weight of the grind much less, while still adding in the fun elements to the game.

Let me know what you think, remember I'm not bashing the game or DE, I love them both, I'm just concerned with players going to feel weighed down or burned out from grinding.

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I assume once those Syndicate Dailies start showing up the Grind will be reduce significantly - if my experience with rep grinding in WoW is any indication of how this thing may go.

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Upon reaching Associate rank in your chosen syndicate you will lose the 5,000 reputation points you have acquired. Bye bye.

....DE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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I just don't get all of you

New features get released: IT'S A GRIND!!!!! dfsdojgadogp!!!!1111!!!! HOW AM I GOING TO LIVE IF THIS ENDGAME LONG-TERM GOAL IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET IN A FEW DAYS! HOW DARE THEY MAKE ANYTHING THAT TAKES TIME?!

nobody actually said this, i am not pointing fingers at anyone (especially not at OP) but every time there's something like brakk, detron, prime stuff, stances, everything... I can see something like this on the forums. It's calm most of the time and constructive but still, same idea.

Edited by Aure7
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I assume once those Syndicate Dailies start showing up the Grind will be reduce significantly - if my experience with rep grinding in WoW is any indication of how this thing may go.

As a long term player of WoW. I agree. If daily alerts fill in a chunk of the points, its not that much of an issue. I'm just using the facts in front of me at this time.

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I just don't get all of you

New features get released: IT'S A GRIND!!!!! dfsdojgadogp!!!!1111!!!! HOW AM I GOING TO LIVE IF THIS ENDGAME LONG-TERM GOAL IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET IN A FEW DAYS! HOW DARE THEY MAKE ANYTHING THAT TAKES TIME?!

nobody actually said this, i am not pointing fingers at anyone but every time there's something like brakk, detron, prime stuff, stances, everything... I can see something like this on the forums.

Being fine with grind =/= being fine with ridiculous grind.

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Thanks for all the information. Quick question: Can you confirm or deny that higher-ranked Sigils reward more reputation points?

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I just don't get all of you

New features get released: IT'S A GRIND!!!!! dfsdojgadogp!!!!1111!!!! HOW AM I GOING TO LIVE IF THIS ENDGAME LONG-TERM GOAL IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET IN A FEW DAYS! HOW DARE THEY MAKE ANYTHING THAT TAKES TIME?!

nobody actually said this, i am not pointing fingers at anyone (especially not at OP) but every time there's something like brakk, detron, prime stuff, stances, everything... I can see something like this on the forums. It's calm most of the time and constructive but still, same idea.

I'm not opposed to taking a decent amount of time in order to obtain something, I'm just saying that 52 straight days of that can burn anyone out.

Thanks for all the information. Quick question: Can you confirm or deny that higher-ranked Sigils reward more reputation points?

No i can not, we will have to see if that is the case, if so, my argument for the time spent goes out of the window.

I just want some more info on this situation, if the DE will inform us just a tad more on how this will work.

Edited by Lludu
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Syndicates are not worth it as they are now. I didnt expect that ranking up with them will eat our reputation.

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I agree with the original poster. The experience points required just to rank up is already enough grind and switching to credits for the rewards will not undermine its nature as a long term gameplay goal.

Edited by dancingknight
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Syndicates are not worth it as they are now. I didnt expect that ranking up with them will eat our reputation.

Me neither. They only told us that purchasing the rewards would drain our reputation.

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Everything takes credits already. I disagree with Syndicate Rewards taking JUST credits. However, Syndicate Ranks not using up Reputation, combined with Syndicate Rewards taking symbolic amount of Credits (say, same or double the amount of Reputation - i.e. Syndicate Mods taking 25000 Reputation, 25000 Credits) would've been nice.

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No i can not, we will have to see if that is the case, if so, my argument for the time spent goes out of the window.

I just want some more info on this situation, if the DE will inform us just a tad more on how this will work.

Alright, thanks for the reply. Second question, if you don't mind: Let's say I obtain a rank promotion in a Syndicate, but then subsequently start working for the enemy Syndicate. Is it possible for me to lose the acquired rank of the first Syndicate?

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Everything takes credits already. I disagree with Syndicate Rewards taking JUST credits. However, Syndicate Ranks not using up Reputation, combined with Syndicate Rewards taking symbolic amount of Credits (say, same or double the amount of Reputation - i.e. Syndicate Mods taking 25000 Reputation, 25000 Credits) would've been nice.

If they directly split them into credits & reputation, i would still hope the number of reputation points required would dramatically go down from 416,500.

Alright, thanks for the reply. Second question, if you don't mind: Let's say I obtain a rank promotion in a Syndicate, but then subsequently start working for the enemy Syndicate. Is it possible for me to lose the acquired rank of the first Syndicate?

I wouldnt think you would lose the rank, but again, im not sure. However I would assume you would have to work out of the deficit points you would gain with the enemy.  You would be putting yourself in a hole if you did that.

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I wouldnt think you would lose the rank, but again, im not sure. However I would assume you would have to work out of the deficit points you would gain with the enemy.  You would be putting yourself in a hole if you did that.

That makes sense. However, if we never lose the rank, then we could just obtain first rank across all Syndicates and never have to worry about being targeted by the squads.

There's far too much up in the air regarding this system...a clarification post from DE would help greatly. But thanks for your time, mate.

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That makes sense. However, if we never lose the rank, then we could just obtain first rank across all Syndicates and never have to worry about being targeted by the squads.

There's far too much up in the air regarding this system...a clarification post from DE would help greatly. But thanks for your time, mate.

I believe you would have to achieve the third rank across all syndicates to stop the squads. Though they may still come after you even after that.

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Progression is needed. Meaningful progression the player can keep and use to make getting up there less frustrating.

I say have the sigil you wear modify the rate of favour gain. The more complex the sigil the faster your gain as they are essentially symbols of your allegiance. Why not, they do nothing for you currently but drain your points. If they served to modify the gain rate of faction XP then a player who HAS to loose out of thousands of hard earned points and loose rank has reason to continue with that faction.

Doesnt seem to make sense that you fight for a syndicate for so long and then get looked at as if you just joined because you cashed in a favour.

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As a long term player of WoW. I agree. If daily alerts fill in a chunk of the points, its not that much of an issue. I'm just using the facts in front of me at this time.

And a fair point it is, I just look further ahead than what is currently available when making up my mind on things.

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Keep in mind those calculations are on what is basically close to the best place to gain the reputation, so your lookin at the 500 per missions being about the best you will get, realistically it will be much lower than that (most claims for endless missions are about 200-300 per mission, for the 15/20 mark)

Having done a few non endless T2/3 voids and derelicts, your lucky to break 100 reputation on these and thats with killing just about everything you come across along the way as well (most gave me around 50 or less reputation), the worst I did was for the pluto capture alert (again killing most of what i came across) netting in only 13 reputation.

Personally I liked the way DE_Steve explained it (in Dev stream 39) in that your reputation goes down when you buy stuff (calling in favours), but your rank is determined by your current amount of reputation (not spent to get it).  So you have to juggle the do I buy or rank up in the Syndicate.

That seemed like quite a nice way to do things with the Syndicates, and it's disapointing to hear is just another currency.

I'd like to see it not become just credits, and more as was explained in the Dev Stream.  Either way it needs some kind of tweaking.

Edited by Loswaith
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Keep in mind those calculations are on what is basically close to the best place to gain the reputation, so your lookin at the 500 per missions being about the best you will get, realistically it will be much lower than that (most claims for endless missions are about 200-300 per mission, for the 15/20 mark)

Having done a few non endless T2/3 voids and derelicts, your lucky to break 100 reputation on these and thats with killing just about everything you come across along the way as well (most gave me around 50 or less reputation), the worst I did was for the pluto capture alert (again killing most of what i came across) netting in only 13 reputation.

Personally I liked the way DE_Steve explained it (in Dev stream 39) in that your reputation goes down when you buy stuff (calling in favours), but your rank is determined by your current amount of reputation (not spent to get it).  So you have to juggle the do I buy or rank up in the Syndicate.

That seemed like quite a nice way to do things with the Syndicates, and it's disapointing to hear is just another currency.

I'd like to see it not become just credits, and more as was explained in the Dev Stream.  Either way it needs some kind of tweaking.

you also would then have to add in the amount of reputation points it takes to rank up fully in the syndicate to the 416,500 it cost to buy everything once... in the long run.. you are still probably looking at 10-13 days of straight nonstop playing to achieve it all for 1 syndicate.

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Keep in mind those calculations are on what is basically close to the best place to gain the reputation, so your lookin at the 500 per missions being about the best you will get, realistically it will be much lower than that (most claims for endless missions are about 200-300 per mission, for the 15/20 mark)

It seems to be related to personal/Warframe kills. I'm getting 300-500 on Xini as Ember, spamming World on Fire, while running Xini as other frames, not killing much due to lack of such ability, nets me less than 200.

Presumably Mutalist Nova (negative power strength) would face similar results as Ember, or make other players have similar results if they trigger the explosion sequences.

EDIT: Correction - Reputation gain seems to be entirely and utterly random, alternately, is based off having everything maxed (i.e. only experience spoils ever add to reputation).

Edited by Barhandar
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It is a grind indeed. Maybe the Syndicate alerts will provide huge boosts in reputation? Or maybe the other sigils will give more reputation, like some of the mods? I hope it will.^^'

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I think the one huge flaw with this system is that there are no other means of getting the stuff ( including sigils ) other syndicates have to offer other than via plat trade. Thats why we all try to plan on how to grind every syndicate ( which is impossible / never ending - a single new sigil / item will mean years of grinding from grounds up for all syndicates again which in turn means we will never ever be satisfied by / with syndicate grinding ).

Choosing a syndicate should show my in game personality ( Lord of War vs. Angel of peace, etc. ) and not what I am currently grinding for.

A solution might be that once other syndicates hate you or at higher levels of the syndicate you chose there might be really hard missions available that allow you some kind of infiltration ( involving fighting those cool looking syndicate members ) and stealing what they have to offer for their members ...

Edit : A way of acquiring opposing syndicate's sigils might be part of some syndicate PvP at some time - just a loose idea.

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I agree, this is beyond rediculous. I lost motivation to get 1 mod when I lost my well earned 5k points, and then realized I would have to earn about 90k more because I have to rank up 3 more times, and THEN buy it for 25k points. i'm not doing that.

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Guys, this is supposed to be end game content. something you slowly work towards, not whiz through in a day.