Syndicate Syndicate Syndicate - The Math Behind The Grind

[Neocyberman]

Guys, this is supposed to be end game content. something you slowly work towards, not whiz through in a day.

It just doesnt seem like something worth working towards. I've spent most of my warframe time mashing my face against a grind wall to get a mod I need to progress and now it just feels like I'm doing the same thing but in a only slightly more interesting but all the less involved manner with a cosmetic strapped to me.

 

I feel like I lack agency in my progression. Not that you are meant to speed through this content, its that there isnt much incentive or control along the way.

[SilentCircle]

Funny side note: If you look closely at the U15 announcement video on youtube you can see that the original rep goal was 9000.

[Davoodoo]

Guys, this is supposed to be end game content. something you slowly work towards, not whiz through in a day.

Thats why i will depend on koreans without souls to grind my rewards for me on this marvelous failed attempt at something that "had no qualities to be endgame but was still called so by devs".

Ye gg, everything from that so called endgame can be bought from trade channel, once someone without life farmed enough to get these.

 

 

 

You want to know how these could be made into endgame??

Instead of grinding rep, syndicate sends you on missions.

 

Difficult missions which actually require some gear and game experience from you, after lets say 3 of these missions you gain higher rank and rewards with it, then you get another set of these missions but this time except of being naturally harder than before you also have other factions which should hate you by now interfere and try to stop you and that goes on until you get max rank.

These missions might be anything, boss, scripted challenge, anything other than steamrolling dozens of grineer.

If they also get some story behind them you may also please guys who want some backstory and better narrative.

 

But no de did this lazy and thats how it looks like now.

Also dont bullS#&$ me, you could monetize my idea the same way as this one so it isnt about money.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Davoodoo

[SilentCircle]

-- snip --

I know that's a joke, but dude...

Edited October 27, 2014 by SilentCircle

[Barhandar]

Funny side note: If you look closely at the U15 announcement video on youtube you can see that the original rep goal was 9000.

And that 9000 wasn't lost on rank-up. Unlike now.

 

That totals to a whopping 51,120 hours of gameplay. That's right, over fifty-thousand hours to get every Syndicate reward. End-game, my @$$.

 

Edit: In case it isn't clear, 51,120 hours is more than five years. Of in-mission time.

Also known as "whoever designed Syndicates system wasn't willing or able to do basic math".

[Latronico]

Well, good to know that Sechura works well. I wil use that map for Syndicates I really don't like like Perrin Sequence, Cephalon Suda and so on. 

But you didn't consider the fact that generally people will not claim every single reward. For example, I'm not interested in Specters, Blueprints and Void Keys (just mods and sigils). 

However, I think that one thing is clear: if an 'higher' sigil doesn't grant the possibility to earn more points, it's really too much grind. 

[Davoodoo]

I know that's a joke, but dude...

Someone doesnt like south park humour it seems.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Davoodoo

[Squiintts]

Everyone here seems to have a much better grasp on this syndicate stuff than I do.  I hate to hijack this thread, but I have a quick question:

 

If the 1ST rank up costs 30,000 credits for every syndicate except Perrin Sequence (which costs a whopping 300,000), how much does the 2ND rank up cost? 

 

thx, sorry for the hijack.

[RoninJed]

Considering the things that OP said, and assuming a proportionally similar amount of XP for each rank to max:

 

Cost to max out each Syndicate's Reputation for level-up:

2423768/5000 = 484.8 * 150 = 72713.04 minutes / 60 = 1211.9 hours / 24 = 50.1 days per Syndicate to get the level-up costs per Syndicate.

 

You also have to dig out of the 27,000 Rep hole you make leveling for five of the six Syndicates, which is about 0.56 days each.

 

Adding this with OP's original value: 8.7 * 6 + 50.1 * 6 + 0.56 * 5 = 355.6 days straight of grinding at the rate of 333.3 rep per minute (which is unrealistically high for sustained periods of time for the average player).

 

That totals to a whopping 51,120 hours of gameplay. That's right, over fifty-thousand hours to get every Syndicate reward. End-game, my @$$.

 

Edit: In case it isn't clear, 51,120 hours is more than five years. Of in-mission time.

If this is all true then I don't want to be on this planet anymore.

[Fruchtpudding]

What would you say is the average reputation gain per normal solar chart mission, averaged out over all mission types?

About 100 if you're generous? With 253 mission currently in the game you would gain 100*253 = 25300 reputation. That is not even enough to get to rank 2 in one Syndicate. And that is for completing the ENTIRE star chart. And that is quite frankly ridiculous. Most new players don't even play the game for that long, Warframe does not have very high player retention.

This is bad game design, plain and simple. That's not even a matter of opinion.

 

I sure hope these numbers are not intentional, it looks like someone didn't do the basic math behind it.

[Genji]

Being fine with grind =/= being fine with ridiculous grind.

 

Yeah 5 years to grind all of that out is madness

[RIOT]

+1 I agree with OP

the grind IS REAL and this time TO MUCH FOR ME!

[Archistopheles]

The only saving grace for Syndicates is that you can passively gain rep while doing other things.

[(PSN)Swiggey]

Why shorten the grind? Why GRIND for this? Isn't this supposed to make the game more sustainable in the long-term? As far as I understand, you don't NEED any of the rewards in a Syndicate to get top-tier stuff, that's been achievable for a very long time in the core game, these new additions are just flavoring so you can differentiate yourself from other players and forge an identity to your own frames, even further more with the added effects to the abilities, which again you don't NEED. And this gives some permanence to your choices and alliances, much like actual causes you'd fight for, and is supposed to be a long-standing effort that correlates with you just simply playing the game as you would otherwise. But everyone likes to get their rocks off to an update's content in like 1-2 days and be on their way or grind Void keys for eternity, so nevermind I guess. I suppose a marginal decrease is okay, but beyond that I don't think DE should change this. It gives you a reason to come back and, I dunno, just play without a new event baiting us back in. If you're a dedicated player you shouldn't have a problem with this. It also incentives really mastering and connecting with a few frames, and if you have a main or even a few mains you won't feel the need to get everything for every warframe.

[Erdhan]

Uhh... Weren't syndicates meant to be part of the end game content? Something you can look foward to after you have done everything else? It obviously is meant to take long. You gain the reputation passively while playing whatever mission you want in the game. If you got all the prizes in 1-2 weeks the whole thing would be pointless and broken. It isn't meant to be something to do and forget. It is meant to be something that's always there in the background, something showing you that there are still things you can achieve and get. To get ONE of the top ranked items should already take weeks of time.

[.Monarch]

I just don't get all of you

 

New features get released: IT'S A GRIND!!!!! dfsdojgadogp!!!!1111!!!! HOW AM I GOING TO LIVE IF THIS ENDGAME LONG-TERM GOAL IS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET IN A FEW DAYS! HOW DARE THEY MAKE ANYTHING THAT TAKES TIME?!

 

nobody actually said this, i am not pointing fingers at anyone (especially not at OP) but every time there's something like brakk, detron, prime stuff, stances, everything... I can see something like this on the forums. It's calm most of the time and constructive but still, same idea.

 

IMO

Video Games aren't meant for enjoyment, fun.

 

Nowadays gaming industry seems to expect all their customers are people living off of their parent's support, gaming 24/7.

 

We have jobs, we have a life. While I personally LOVE DE, and Warframe. This is a little bit too much for me.

Especially when you're a veteran, been here since the beginning.

 

To gain standing, the only way is to tattoo yourself and run missions.

Missions some of us ran over 900 times already, missions we can close our eyes (Exaggeration) and be done within minutes, with minimal rewards / payout.

 

It is not fun for us to run the same thing over and over. Till the end of time.

 

Game contents should be something enjoyable to replay even after a certain amount of time.

Honestly, for those of us players who have a life out there, it's kinda bummer for us to not able to enjoy this game to its fullest, to enjoy all the possible rewards we can get.

 

TL:DR;

I would be much less upset if these things are purchasable through Platinum, not in a RNG sense obviously.

I was completely bummed out after leveling up one Syndicate, only to realize if I want the "rewards", I have to spend hard earned Standing as a currency. I simply find this method backwards. ( I work for you, and I still have to pay you? What? )

[Barhandar]

Uhh... Weren't syndicates meant to be part of the end game content? Something you can look foward to after you have done everything else? It obviously is meant to take long. You gain the reputation passively while playing whatever mission you want in the game. If you got all the prizes in 1-2 weeks the whole thing would be pointless and broken. It isn't meant to be something to do and forget. It is meant to be something that's always there in the background, something showing you that there are still things you can achieve and get. To get ONE of the top ranked items should already take weeks of time.

1: "end game content" and "takes YEARS to get" are mutually exclusive ideas.

2: When I've done everything else, I have no incentive to actually play anymore. Syndicate doesn't give that incentive, because it's completely off to the side with progress-as-you-normally-play Reputation and completely useless rewards.

[Mak_Gohae]

As a long term player of WoW. I agree. If daily alerts fill in a chunk of the points, its not that much of an issue. I'm just using the facts in front of me at this time. 

 

But this isnt actually a rep grind, this is a token system.

It uses reputations as a term but this is really just a token system.

Get the point and use them.... then start again.

 

The problem is that the rate is pretty much even with everything you do so it gets boring, right?

 

So maybe DE can tune certain task that will give more points if you do them.

New Loki is about healing and all that jazz so if you play with frames that heal you get double points!

And for every healing ability used that ACTUALLY heals you get another bonus.

But im sure people will find some sort of combo where they can stay all day in a mission healing getting points.

 

The Suda is about finding stuff so if you open lockers you get more points.

Red Veil is about breaking stuff so when you break containers, cameras, and explosive barrels you get more points.

The Arbiters give you point if you do 25 hit melee combos.

 

They can expand this.

[Othergrunty]

I think the item for favors thing is a good idea.

 

However i do agree that DE should do some tweaking to how much reputation points should be rewarded.

 

Especialy when compared to mods you can get in the meantime through regular or void activities.

 

While some of the syndicate new mods are nice (or that downright overpowered sounding Mirage one), most are not groundbreaking.

 

Especialy when we got oddball things for weapons like a 0.1% chance for bolts to explode on Bolto or a mod which only fits on the Mire(?) a sword so mediocre and underused one might forget it exist at all.

 

By the time you can get one of these, you could have allready got your hands on all T-IV Vor mods, plus the corrupted mods, which are a lot more powerfull and fit on all weapons.

 

Now of course we might get some sweeter rewards down the line from the syndicates. But still even with that in mind the progression for the Syndicates seems painfully slow and could need some tweaking.
 

[DSpite]

I fail to understand why everyone keeps thinking that the idea behind Syndicates was to hop from one to the other like grasshoppers and collect everything.

 

Pretty sure - based on the fact you get NEGATIVES from other Syndicates - that you are supposed to stick to one, maybe two by switching to the other "friendly one" on the list.

 

DE just copied what EvE Online more or less has with the factions there, just with larger numbers. With a WF population of hundred of thousands of players, we will be swimming in Syndicate mods in a couple of months tops.

[Ronyn]

If we want to tweak things here and there to make it better I am all for that.

But let's keep in mind that getting full rank with all syndicates is supposed to be absurd.

We are supposed to be making a choice, one that has weight and matters.

In time I expect DE to bring more relevance to the syndicate we have allegiance to.

If all we are doing is viewing these syndicates as "roads to new rewards" then we aren't understanding their goal or their potential.

[xkillo32]

you also would then have to add in the amount of reputation points it takes to rank up fully in the syndicate to the 416,500 it cost to buy everything once... in the long run.. you are still probably looking at 10-13 days of straight nonstop playing to achieve it all for 1 syndicate.

and then double that when u go ally urself with the enemy syndicate

[Auramaru]

Sounds like joining a Syndicate is something you do "in the long haul".  Not something to do overnight or out-right grinded... 

[Brimir]

Sounds like joining a Syndicate is something you do "in the long haul".  Not something to do overnight or out-right grinded... 

 

Five years worth of "long haul".

[Feallike]

OK so apparently the lower your conclave the more Rep. you get.

 

Or atleast having less weapons makes your rep. go up faster.

 

 

Edit: I am going to go buy MK1_Braton unequip all mods and go kill vor and see how much rep. i get.

Edited October 25, 2014 by Feallike