A Redundant Rant Concerning U15 And The Deconstruction Of Yet Another Coop Game I Used To Like In General.

[R34LM]

I've been playing since update 7. I remember my first time stepping in with my friend who recommended this to me. We did the first few missions on mercury, killed the red vor, then did a corpus mission. When we did our first infested mission, I looked to the ground to see gross wiggly things and I yelled "OOOOH GOOOD WHAT IS THAT?!". I was scared. And my friend and I would challenge ourselves to do stealth runs and not set off an alarm because, back then, you couldn't turn it off. It was that charm that I spent so much time and money into.

 

Now, as you have said, it has been made to massive horde mode. Enemy spawns are absolutely ridiculous and there are missions that feed off of that. The most popular missions are now Survival, Defense and Interception, plus Excavation. Why? Allows for horde mode. Ironically, not all frames can handle so many enemies in one room. Unless you are a particular frame with a particular moveset (Loki Invis, Ash Bladestorm, Nova MP) you will not survive. It's disgusting. And it is burrowing into the mindset of others. This is one reason why people have given so much negative feedback on Limbo. Why? He handles well in rooms of 8 or so enemies, but not in horde mode 20 to a small hallway.

 

Compared to the charm that I saw back in U7, I now just go in the mission, run around killing stuff as fast as I can before I get torn apart, then get on the ship and do it again, hoping I get closer to making something that makes the process go by faster. My friend doesn't even play the game anymore, no matter how many times I tell him to check it out. He's just done.

 

This game has just been spead too thin for its own good. I will say, Archwing is a welcoming new addition, but it is the same thing still: go here, kill a swarm of enemies...only now IN SPACE. The game needs depth. Start by giving us a reason NOT to kil everyone in the room. Boom, game changed.

 

The main problem is what you have stated: the devs don't know what the future is for this game. More importantly, they are not seeing what will be the FINISHED product, where production ends.

 

I love this game to death. But it needs less new and more girth.

Edited October 27, 2014 by R34LM

[Liminal]

Yeah. I know that feel.

It's a love-hate relationship. I understand how you love the core game and hate all the stuff that's wrong with it.
It has the potential to be so much more that it hurts.

 

I felt like that a bit after U14 was released, on my 3rd or 4th WF burnout. I thought Archwing was going to change that but I see that while the game mode is fun, it's more of the same: grind for basic mods, tons of balance issues, etc. I'm now plowing through the U15 content, but I don't foresee this lasting for a long time. I'll probably take another break soon.

[Xaiux]

Throwing my support as a veteran from U9 with 476 hours in. If it wasn't for my best friend being willing to keep playing this game, I would've quit a long time ago. I got my Odonata today, and I played an Archwing mission. From the general talk, I expected the mission to be nearly unplayable, but thankfully it seemed to go bug free. I probably played more in the summer I discovered this game then I have in the last 6 months. The major issue I'm having lately is that I have a pretty good laptop. Intel i7-4700MQ, Nvidia 750M, so I should be able to play this game at at least medium, if not maxed settings. Nope. I will get 60FPS most of the time in medium settings, sure, but especially in U15, I will have pauses in FPS, and the game will freeze every 20 seconds or so. I like my semi-auto rifles and bows, so this will make the game nearly unplayable when headshots are only possible for a few seconds at a time. The game was more reliable the older it was. As for gameplay, it does seems like DE is fueled up on the hype train it created. So there was a massive Hype train for U14, with its hugely improved melee system. Great. The release came out, was buggy as usual, but was fixed fairly quickly. So what does DE do for U15? Gets a feature no one requested to add to the game created behind the scenes. The late-game everyone is demanding? A future update. Soon. Instead of fixing bugs and adding depth to this already great game, DE adds yet another buggy system to an overloaded game. 

 

Let's take a moment to look at the Warframes. My favourite is Volt, and Mag before that. In U9, I could choose Mag as my starter, so I did. She was really cool, cause I could throw enemies around and crush them with my void powers. Awesome! I could even play with my foes in rooms I couldn't see. Fast forward to today. I have Mag Prime, pretty much the same Warframe as my starter, just shinier. I never play her. She's situational at best, and useless at worst. I used to be able to aid allies with my pull, and not have to be tanky enough to actually go in a fight and revive them there. It was another option next to Rhino and Loki's ways of doing things. Now, pull is just a knockdown. I could do the same with most melee jump attacks. Perhaps an option would be that if an ally is down, then they become targetable with pull. This is just an example of how some warframes are being changed into near oblivion. Frost was my second frame. I have (again) Frost Prime now. Same frame with more gold. No physics on his hip-cape, of course, or my Trinity or Volt. But back to Frost. Snow Globe was a fine nerf, it was a pretty overpowered ability. His ult, Avalanche, however, is basically just another AOE damage nuke. Nothing special, nothing screaming out ICE or COLD. Another game I play a lot of is League of Legends. They have a similar problem, simply far farther along then DE. They have over 120 champions, each with four abilities similar to Warframes. The League community is quite different than Warframe's, but the more mature ones recognize the same problem that Warframe is going to find itself in soon. With a large pool of characters, there will be some similarities. How many Warframe ults can be classified at AOE nukes? Frost, Volt, Mag/Prime, Rhino/Prime are the ones I can think of right away. There are a few I think are more unique, like Valkyr. That's a unique and fairly fun ability. (Naming could be better...)

 

The point I'm trying to make is that DE should listen to the veteran players. The massive amount of game experience present among the top players of this game is a huge resource that any developer would love to have. Please, DE, use us. The Design Council is a good start, but I feel like there could be something like a Review Council, or even Bug-Hunting Council. There's got to be a better name, but it's late, and I can't think of one. The requirements would be a minimum MR and number of hours in the game as a start. The point of such a group would be to review how the game has progressed and come together to suggest the biggest issues that need addressing. To an extent, this is what the forums are for, however, the forums are only regulated and reviewed in that they are kept "clean" from language and such. We need a way to make sure DE hears the major suggestions of the experienced players in this game. Maybe something like Community Hot Topics, but more regulated perhaps. Anyway, it's late, and I feel like I'm rambling now. Have a good night everyone.

[SilentCynic]

The most eloquent and true commentary on the state of the game thus far. I could rant with you for hours about this topic, but, ultimately, what's the point? I keep being drawn back to this game, over and over, by potential. Ironically, I'm too optimistic for my own good, thinking that perhaps DE will hit the nail on the head sooner or later, but time and time again, it's disappointing. Hope is a tragic thing.

[Kaian-a-coel]

I don't think that's what the game is. I'd say it's more like DE decided to build the biggest city ever, but all their buildings are just foundations. Every time they sit down and start to seriously think about finishing one, they think of all the other, different buildings they could start and forget about it.

This. They make foundations all over the place, and when we point to an unfinished building that was advertised as a shining spire of glass and steel, they shower us in blueprints for the next building to be erected, an even taller skyscraper of gold and marble. But they did this one time too many. The void. The derelicts. The dojos. The dark sectors. The kubrows. The melee. The syndicates. The archwing. All started, none anywhere near finished. The void is still a mess of cluttered drop tables with a few gimmicks and placeholder ennemies. The derelicts were optimised but otherwise stayed the same. The dojos got a trickle of cosmetics and teleporters, but still has nothing to do in it. Melee 2.0 barely improved anything. The fancy stances are useless and chanelling is just charge attacks costing energy. The syndicates are a ridiculous grind for subpar mods and cosmetics. The archwing... Well it's archwing. Wyrmius would be more entertaining.

[Sylaenius]

The worst thing about the situation with Warframe, is when I have gotten the ear of a mid level dev who shall not be named, and we were having discussion about it and things I dislike or things I'd like to see, he/she/they got pissed off and in no uncertain terms told me I simply wanted the game to be easier, everything I was asking for "Is already in the game" etcetera.

 

Basically, I was told I'm unreasonable, I'm not playing the game properly and if I want challenge I just have to try harder, and I can go screw myself.

 

Which seems to be the attitude in general in livestreams, though through a mix of apologetic placation and deflection, or outright ignoring things.

 

This is the feedback subforum, where people go to report issues, give feedback and criticism, or make suggestions, but time and again the only things addressed on stream are from a "Dev stream question thread", and the only time in recent memory a feedback topic has been in any way affiliated with a dev stream has been a thread linked to a question, and usually it's some inane crap about kubrows or cosmetics.

 

 

I'll wait for 5 or 6 streams to have the Devs finally talk about Parkour, Melee, Difficulty, Balance, Damage, Enemy Diversity, or any number of topics that need to be dealt with, and it gets a bloody 10 second to one minute footnote that inevitably segues into a new warframe, discussion about kubrows, or sentinels, or cosmetics, or whatever. The entire focus is always the new shiny bullS#&$ and everything else can go get screwed.

 

I've pretty much given up by now, there just isn't any point, is there?

[Exodess]

DE seems to have decided having a "wide" game--one with lots of shallow content, is better than having a deep game. That's what's killing all of us on this thread. There are so many things Warframe has that scream potential when they're released, but are never given the depth necessary to make them special.

 

Look at Invasions. Players here on the Forums have been suggesting multiple battles, minibosses, a raid as the last completion, and many other things to improve them since they were first implemented. Yet it's still "complete 5 missions for 35000 credits."

 

Look at Nightmare Missions. So much potential, yet all we get is "run a mission without shields for a chance at a mod."

 

Look at the Void. That new Limbo frame seems to be calling to the Void, begging it to do strange things with players and enemies moving throughout dimensions, with crazy impossible geometry and challenging traps. We also could use more enemy variety and bosses. But we just get "play Survival in a white room, to get a key for another one of these missions as a reward."

 

Look at Quests. I said "story!" DE said "normal missions with some dialogue".

 

Look at Dark Sectors. For a little while, PvP seemed like it would bring something different. Yet the system is still nearly as flawed and shallow as it was at implementation.

 

Look at many of the frames: Excalibur, Nekros, Ember. So much potential for these concepts, but ultimately not special at anything.

 

Look at the mods: all they do is increase stats. Very few make a meaningful difference to the game.

 

Look at the base combat itself: Enemies come in two varieties: low health and low damage, and moderate health and high damage. Few change combat in a meaningful way, or make players approach them differently. Stealth is a good joke, as is not using any of a select 10 or so weapons in each category.

 

But DE is, slowly, adding depth. The Infested are better enemies than they were before, and the Drahk sounds promising. Melee is coming together finally. Bosses are more fun now.

 

The question is will they ever prioritize that depth, and build their game around that rather than width. If not, all the game will become is a collection of half-baked ideas.

 

This is a perfect description of the problem.

 

D-E is improving on this, but progress is painfully slow for those of us who've been here a year or more. Bear in mind the quest system just came out a few months ago with Update 14. Updated Rescue missions (arguably a genius implementation of Stealth, at least at the final part) were also a recent addition. The Sling Stone mission, among other time-limited events, had an interesting gimmick that was never built upon. The last mission of The Archwing quest is unparalleled genius in my opinion. Confrontations with bosses like those between the player and Alad V in his assassination mission feels personal. More random Assassins like the Harvestor and Gustraag Three make for an interesting distraction during missions. These are all hints that D-E is edging towards depth. They know how to build a scene, they simply fail to build up to or follow-up on them. There's little sense of continuity and narrative.

 

I really hope they elaborate and add story quests to the Syndicates, that player lobbies will lead to NPC "town"-like locales where players can go and interact with the world beyond blowing things up, and, as was discussed in a recent Devstream, invasions where players defend colonists to hold onto neutral or allied territory and get to see an actual urban environment. Now if Steve would just reconsider adding little kid NPCs clinging to stuffed bears for us to rescue! :D

 

D-E needs to realize that Warframe is currently too "dungeon" heavy, and that the world needs to come to the player every once and a while instead of the player taking all the initiative. The Archwing's last mission was a step in that direction, because it had narrative, surprise (for the characters), rising action and a climax. Unfortunately, it lacked a proper resolution, with Tenno councils and NPCs discussing this most recent development as the player looks on and considers their next move. Instead, it was sort of a "oh well, that's over with" moment.

 

And seriously, we need random mid-boss rooms to pop up in missions (Mega Man X style) to break up monotony. Having all these mission types and barring rare exception keeping them on relatively static objectives is wasted potential because the player is never engaged or surprised. Everything is a fetch quest.

 

This recent stock deal has me worried about D-E's future priorities, but I hope they will maintain the course and start building up the world they've so carefully seeded.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Exodess

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

I think people are misunderstanding that it isn't "quality over quantity" but "quality OR quantity."

[MichaelSD]

The Excalibur changes were quite stupid. There several thread about it,

[[DE]Drew]

I can appreciate a healthy rant, but I do not appreciate profanity and attempts to bypass the word filter. Please, keep the language appropriate. 

Even though the OP called it a "redundant rant" I noticed the constructive feedback buried in there. Example:

Just because I don't like ranting about something without ever providing constructive feedback:

 

Buzlok is:

- A short- to mid-range spam gun. Projectiles make hitting enemies harder, lack of zoom for dumbfire.

- Its homing beacon is used for attracting bullets to one target to enable a different type of high-accuracy attack.

 

Current problems:

- Beacon costs 10 rounds per shot, at least one beacon per enemy, meaning it is a waste of ammo and is therefore never used except for joking around or on enemies that sponge bullets.

- Therefore: Either Buzlok is too strong, so the beacon is pointless as it costs more than dumbfire. Or Buzlok is too weak which just creates huge ammo consumption for little effect. It just takes a lot of time to kill a single enemy and is therefore hard to use in Warframe.

- Beacon is offset from target location. Rounds home into the beacon, often missing the target and striking into the beacon antenna protruding from the enemy's head instead of the head itself. So no damage.

- There is no forced dumbfire. Once a beacon has been placed, shots cannot be fire normally without the beacon getting reset by firing it at an enemy and killing that enemy or waiting for a very long time.

- Beacon counts as attack, spoiling stealth. I think it was noted somewhere that this shouldn't be the case.

- Shots have a fast turning speed, giving the player only a bit of control over the path a round takes.

 

> Make beacon free or 1-round cost.

> Make sure beacon is not noticed by enemies.

> Beacon offset = 0 so shots hit where the beacon hits.

> Give rounds more inertia in their initial firing direction to give players more control over the path of the projectile. Meaning slightly less turning speed to emphasize player control and roughly aiming into the enemy direction for best accuracy. Even better: Increase turning speed with distance travelled.

> Reset beacon on right-click (zoom) if beacon has been spawned 1 second or longer ago. This allows players to enable dumbfire again and shoot straight to where the crosshair is pointing.

[Necr0Ra1se]

I am not totaly agree but i would say that DE must stop adding new content ang go back and redesign old Like invasions\infestation. Warframe is already oversaturated with content I acn't name other F2P game with so many Game mods, content and mechanics.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Necr0Ra1se

[Cemges]

Despite your manners you seem to in the end touch a fine point which is a general lack of retrospective vision and refinements due to lack of time and money, and also you might be right about somefeatures being added simply on hype. Kubrow overall was poor and dedicating yourself to keep that dog alive everyday is just like a deature from korean mmorpgs; the place I escaped from to find warframe. Yeah we could probably use a slower development pace probably. But, say, archwing is not a such feature, I just hope it isn't discarded like dark sectors and invasions. Maybe they all get tied up at one point.

[--Q--JoeTheBanshee]

Before we start harshly judging U15 right out the door, we should give it a week or two. No update for this game has been completely stable and balanced, and with an update as large as U15 we need to give it a while to fully form. Archwing in its current state is only the beginning, and as we can obviously see the developers consistently monitor each and every forum and sub-forum. The best way to help them is by providing constructive criticism and reporting bugs.

 

Stay optimistic and vigilant, Tenno.

[Satinpuppies]

I wish the gunplay had more weight to it, I wish we had less to be honest... Imagine Warframe at a slightly slower based covering room to room shooter, where powers did less but more at the same time.

Where gunplay was the main feature where blasting a grineer in the face with a shotgun actually felt cool and he sploded all over the place, and it wasn't just a crap ton of numbers and affinity pouring out of it. and then he falls to the ground with the same animation every other grineer does, I wish DE would focus on the real motion physics and hit detection to areas of the enemies bodies to give the guns a real life like sensation.

[Exodess]

Despite your manners you seem to in the end touch a fine point which is a general lack of retrospective vision and refinements due to lack of time and money, and also you might be right about somefeatures being added simply on hype. Kubrow overall was poor and dedicating yourself to keep that dog alive everyday is just like a deature from korean mmorpgs; the place I escaped from to find warframe. Yeah we could probably use a slower development pace probably. But, say, archwing is not a such feature, I just hope it isn't discarded like dark sectors and invasions. Maybe they all get tied up at one point.

 

I'm still trying to grasp the complaints about Kubrows personally. I've always felt like the Kubrow is something of a trophy rather than a required piece of equipment, as properly-modded Sentinels can outclass Kubrows in various situations, and the Kubrows' high upkeep and mod-heavy nature all scream "sink feature". I also believe Kubrows were a test bed for a behavioral technology rather than the ends, and I hope they elaborate on them further at some point along with adding more possibilities with Sentinels.

 

I think the complaints on Kubrows originate from the fact that they were driven as a major feature, yet it doesn't feel like more is being planned for them. I like a game that spreads itself out to give players plenty to experiment on without forcing players down a linear path, but features should also exist to be built on and granted further depth and purpose while also not locking out new players. That said, if the Sumpo buyout is really worth everything Steve claims it will be, they would be wise to start spending that cash infusion expanding their team to work on increasing the depth of existing features to make it feel like our time and commitment to building up our Warframes is headed toward something.

 

Warframe is at its core a simple lobby/mission game, but it has grown to have the potential to be so much more. 

Edited October 29, 2014 by Exodess

[(PSN)vinster]

Thanks to the OP for his rant.  Being close to 1100 hours spent on the game on the PS4, I can't help but empathize.  I've never ever spent so much time on one single game before and Warframe has been it for me.  I'm happy and sad at the same time that I decided to play Warframe.  Happy because I had a lot fun with the game earlier on, sad because of some of the changes upcoming in U15 and what the OP was ranting about.

 

Here's hoping that DE will at least take to heart some of the issues discussed here, and not plod along just to pander to corporate desires or personal achievements for promotion.  Go go DE, I still have faith that you'll do right by your customers (and eh, give me back my 9 or 10 warframe slots when U15 hits the PS4. :)

[Cemges]

I'm still trying to grasp the complaints about Kubrows personally. I've always felt like the Kubrow is something of a trophy rather than a required piece of equipment, as properly-modded Sentinels can outclass Kubrows in various situations, and the Kubrows' high upkeep and mod-heavy nature all scream "sink feature". I also believe Kubrows were a test bed for a behavioral technology rather than the ends, and I hope they elaborate on them further at some point along with adding more possibilities with Sentinels.

 

I think the complaints on Kubrows originate from the fact that they were driven as a major feature, yet it doesn't feel like more is being planned for them. I like a game that spreads itself out to give players plenty to experiment on without forcing players down a linear path, but features should also exist to be built on and granted further depth and purpose while also not locking out new players. That said, if the Sumpo buyout is really worth everything Steve claims it will be, they would be wise to start spending that cash infusion expanding their team to work on increasing the depth of existing features to make it feel like our time and commitment to building up our Warframes is headed toward something.

 

Warframe is at its core a simple lobby/mission game, but it has grown to have the potential to be so much more.

Let me tell why why cash infusion isn't all that matters; destiny as an example. Activision has showed the world, multiple times, that you can't turn a billion dollar franchise over night. It is simple, how much money, different studios and PR budget you might have, if the core development team does not get nearly enough time for procedural creation of core content, the result always seems to turn out lackluster. That is also an issue most commom with all yearly franchises. Time shpuld be the least of constraints if it is your wish to fully realise your project. That much is clear.

[Llyssa]

Onebig difference I'd suggest versus the OP: Beacons should be reset by zooming in and hitting reload.

 

I actually like using zoom to see what's going on, losing my beacon to it would suck. However, a reset option is badly needed.

[DantX]

In fact this game has monstruous, absurdes flaws and equally incredible qualities, that's why its so hard to stop playing it, because maybe one day, it could be a truly smart and good game. +1 to you

[sanj66]

I wish the gunplay had more weight to it, I wish we had less to be honest... Imagine Warframe at a slightly slower based covering room to room shooter, where powers did less but more at the same time.

Where gunplay was the main feature where blasting a grineer in the face with a shotgun actually felt cool and he sploded all over the place, and it wasn't just a crap ton of numbers and affinity pouring out of it. and then he falls to the ground with the same animation every other grineer does, I wish DE would focus on the real motion physics and hit detection to areas of the enemies bodies to give the guns a real life like sensation.

you do realize making it more gun play would just bury the game in the already saturated genre of online shooters or just shooters on the whole, the warframes are the highlight of the game, it is what they are based on so why would they make the game more focused on gun play to out shadow the main point of the game/title?

[Garuger]

I can appreciate a healthy rant, but I do not appreciate profanity and attempts to bypass the word filter. Please, keep the language appropriate. 

 

Well if you had higher quality control and released proper contect maybe j ppl would not have to rant to get your attetion . You really need some test servers for founders at least because the fiasco with the syndicate grind is insane and obviously no one tested it or saw it because i consider ridiculous to put a mod at 25 k which is a skana/jaw mod wihle at the same range is a hek multishot mod . Along with a lot of other stuff with syndicate that makes totally no sense what so ever . If you want me to give you a full constractive analysis because that is what you consider "valid" tell me to do so. Or is this game still consider a beta? because i saw no release notes whatsoever . But i may be wrong

 

Edit: I was wrong it is indeed in Beta so more stuff to try out i guess huh? Lucky us

Edited October 29, 2014 by Garuger

[sanj66]

I'm in the same boat -- played for a day of U15 stuff and it's just the same incoherent mess as it was a year ago, a half-year ago, few months ago.

DE just adds more superficial stuff, again and again, while the core of the game haven't been updated in a while.

And since the game is actually growing, there is no incentive for DE to change their ways.

 

Also, funny DE's habit -- when in doubt, use more RNG. (hence Syndicate grind and much more.)

syndicates are not rng.....did you even play it? none of the syndicate rewards are rng you earn rep and exchange for what you want. also to the op i dunno about you but i everytime i had a problem staff were willing and able to help, never had an issue with support problems. 

[sanj66]

Well if you had higher quality control and released proper contect maybe j ppl would not have to rant to get your attetion . You really need some test servers for founders at least because the fiasco with the syndicate grind is insane and obviously no one tested it or saw it because i consider ridiculous to put a mod at 25 k which is a skana/jaw mod wihle at the same range is a hek multishot mod . Along with a lot of other stuff with syndicate that makes totally no sense what so ever . If you want me to give you a full constractive analysis because that is what you consider "valid" tell me to do so

i also looked at this but if you look at the rewards what they did, well atleast to me, was they looked at weapons and skills people dont really use and used those for the mutator mods as a means of getting people interested again in using them. cuz i mean why use a hek or sobek if there is boar prime in the game, why use skana if there is the nikana etc. but by making these the weapons that benefit from the syndicates it might get people to use them more, i guess that was the ideology they went with.

[vaugahn]

Or is this game still consider a beta? because i saw no release notes whatsoever . But i may be wrong

 

Still in beta. 

 

When you run the launcher for the first time, you're forced to click through the Open Beta Agreement. It's in big print, you'd be hard-pressed to miss it.

[Garuger]

Still in beta. 

 

When you run the launcher for the first time, you're forced to click through the Open Beta Agreement. It's in big print, you'd be hard-pressed to miss it.

Well i have not run he launcher since i joined in U5 but srs in beta? In 2 major consoles releases,fully developed market   and in beta? Well then they can do whatever they want since it is still in "beta" . They can even make everything pink and say it is "beta"