Being Disarmed Is Really Stupid, Without Even Explaining It.

[Trouvo]

<99% of the time since valkyr came out just uses melee, and only brings other weapons for exp, which was only reason I even noticed...

 

I was like oh hey my guns on the ground...whatevs...and keep hacking and slashing through the map leaving my gun there lol

[sp33chle55]

Exactly what is "fake difficulty"? Is there a definition anywhere i can look up?

Maybe i sound harsh now, but you really should let go of the hand holding yours and learn to accept defeats and learn from it. Some of you guys just sound like losing shouldnt even happen once. It gets me sick.

What is there to be fixed with bleed and toxin? Theres nothing wrong with it in the first place. Those are sources of damage which can surpass shields. Period.

Get a healthpool larger than 200hp and stop calling survival 60+ mins or defense wave 40+ "the game" because it simply isnt. Its another difficulty and the game should get too hard on endless modes, because you just shouldnt play an unlimited time a single mode.

Thats my opinion. I can accept yours but it just feels like holding hands to me. Sorry.

Edited October 26, 2014 by sp33chle55

[BloodArmoredApostle]

i dont really get the arguement for it either way, remember when people complained about the commander grineer swapping spots with you and that that was jarring? Now the grineer have a guy that can disarm you, and there is a marker for your weapon so its not like you cant find it, think its only as jarring as the swapping in my opinion.  Doesnt really bother me either way.

 

I do think its funny tho, next thing you know the grineer will have a decoy ability or invisibility.....LOKI MUST BE ONE OF THE GRINEER QUEENS!

Im sorry but if a game mechanic can justify you losing exp and time with it being broken then no. Wading thru enemies to pickup your weapon is lost time and exp...really isn't cool. Not ontop of your whole squad losing their weapons and not able to pick them up....this is too often and more like 4 out of 5 runs with grineer i have seen my whole squad disarmed and cant fight at all unless melee weapons...really nice weapons falling through the floor lost exp...unranked weapon bug...definitely challenging to the brain cells to contemplate the validity. Obviously, you dont have issues with any bugs of any type and the annoyance of losing time...everything is just peachy on your side correct?

[sp33chle55]

We are not talking bugs here. Its simply about the mechanic of losing your weapon.

Of course you should be able to pick it up again. Sigh...

[Void.Soul]

I think it's a very silly addition to such a fast-paced game. You suddenly have to realize what happened, wade through piles of enemies, and go pick up your weapon. I'd honestly rather have the attack do a knockdown, just because I don't need to break my funky flow to recover.

 

I have no doubt that bugs can be fixed, and the system can be made flawless so that you can always get your weapon back, but I don't feel very confident that it will be fun even if that happens.

Absolutely. They need to hire a guy over at DE to filter through intended changes, looking for "features" that are actually just annoying and shouldn't be implemented.

 

DE is confusing annoyances with challenges.

[DSpite]

I'm waiting for the majority of responses to defend this mechanic as challenge...

 

Seriously, if you have to take away player agency in any form as a game mechanic and not a narrative mechanic, you have made it frustrating and not challenging. This is why enemies knocking us down, us having to weaken our equipment for 'tactical alerts, and this weapon stealing are taking away from the game and not adding to it. Challenge and reward us for playing, don't punish us.

 

I'm normally a person that "defends mechanics", but you won't get a peep from me on this. I mean, technically, a handful of "disarming" units would be more deadly then 500 Toxic Ancients.

[CapricaSix]

The disarm mechanic by far is the worst addition to the game in my opinion, nothing more annoying than noticing your weapons are gone, no clue why, no clue where, they're just gone. Can't get them back by reviving either, once you get disarmed and was unfortunate enough to not notice it amidst all the chaos, you're done for the rest of the mission.

 

It should be removed from the game, no tweaking or fixing, just kill it, burn it and drown it...

Edited October 27, 2014 by CapricaSix

[JapariBun]

If anyone were to disarm Warframes, it would defintely be the Corpus. The Drahk master's ability set fits Corpus, not Grineer. I always see Grineer pumping toxins into ecosystems and slaughtering kubrows. I have no idea why they would have an animal tamer.

 

The corpus definitely seem like they would be the ones to have an enemy type to disarm you. Maybe something magnetic that pulls your weapon in, or something to scramble the weapon and make it dysfunctional for a few seconds. Also, the summoning definitely fits Corpus infintely better than the Grineer. The Corpus already have the Tech, who summons drones to aid in combat, and crowd control centered robots. The Grineer seem to just want to slaughter enemies. Overall, I feel the Grineer "dogs" idea was a bit random. It doesn't really hold any place in the game.

[Taranis49]

Exactly what is "fake difficulty"? Is there a definition anywhere i can look up?

Maybe i sound harsh now, but you really should let go of the hand holding yours and learn to accept defeats and learn from it. Some of you guys just sound like losing shouldnt even happen once. It gets me sick.

What is there to be fixed with bleed and toxin? Theres nothing wrong with it in the first place. Those are sources of damage which can surpass shields. Period.

Get a healthpool larger than 200hp and stop calling survival 60+ mins or defense wave 40+ "the game" because it simply isnt. Its another difficulty and the game should get too hard on endless modes, because you just shouldnt play an unlimited time a single mode.

Thats my opinion. I can accept yours but it just feels like holding hands to me. Sorry.

 

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FakeDifficulty

 

One of the two main faults I listed is its own category and it's something a lot of the game falls under. Quite a few "challenges" in the game fall under the umbrella of Fake Difficulty simply due to how the spawn system "works" and how the tiles are generated. The procs themselves are likewise random, i.e. not reliably determined by player actions. Regardless of how skilled you are, it's simply not possible to reliably evade attacks and effects through skilled movement in actual practice (e.g. being unfortunate enough to run into shock eximi/energy leeches camping elevators, enemies on the other side of doors/walls where they can't be engaged until you go through and get hit, etc.)

 

As said, there's also a difference between "hard" and "annoying", most "difficult" mechanics in Warframe are in practice simply annoyance mechanics that amount to slapping the controls out of the player's hand... which is the sort of thing I expect of a five year old.

[DrBorris]

Aw, did the mean Grineer take your Boltor Prime? Do you want a hug?

 

Seriously though, we Tenno have been mindlessly able to obliterate the factions, it makes sense for them to start fighting back in more unconventional ways (because look at how well guns are going for them). We need more creative and difficult enemies, we need to pay more attention to our surroundings when in the heat of battle.

[Frostmire]

I can't get my self to understand what kind of challenge do the community want . Some always complain about lack of real challenge but when there's something new that is challenging this kinds of thread just pop-up complaining about how it's a cheap trick .

 

Seriously , all of us space ninja have access to ridiculous crowd control,mass AoE nuke or temporary god mode, enemy taking a weapon from you is too punishing ? really ?

[birdei]

its ok if we do it to them, but when the same tactic is used against us, its cheap and unfair.

but hey atleast we can pick up our weapons back (once bugs are fixed) unlike the things we fight. Also if you are fighting grineers and decided not to bring a melee weapon, well thats on you.

[Krion112]

I can't get my self to understand what kind of challenge do the community want . Some always complain about lack of real challenge but when there's something new that is challenging this kinds of thread just pop-up complaining about how it's a cheap trick .

 

Seriously , all of us space ninja have access to ridiculous crowd control,mass AoE nuke or temporary god mode, enemy taking a weapon from you is too punishing ? really ?

Understand, this isn't fair challenge. Granted, the way Warframe just did weapon stealing isn't even that big of an offender of unfair challenge, in comparison to the way the knockdown used to be and tactical alerts. Just because we can reach extremes in damage and abilities, doesn't excuse knockdown, tactical alerts, weapon stealing, and other forced handicaps or thievery of player agency. In fact, with this, I feel DE has painted themselves in a corner, because now they have to make enemies that fight and fairly treat the player with a good challenge, but unfortunately, it's really hard to balance an enemy against the sort of power we have.

 

Also, we work for what we power up to; we have to grind, rank up, unlock, build, and suffer to RNG's terms to get the power we achieve. The enemy just spawns with what it does on the worlds the game allows it to spawn on, and there's infinitely more of them than there are of us, plus you're comparing punishing computer controlled entities unfairly and punishing players unfairly. Punishing players unfairly is far worse, because it's a risk of pushing away your customers and getting bad reviews on your games. We treat the computer characters poorly, nothing happens.

 

 

its ok if we do it to them, but when the same tactic is used against us, its cheap and unfair. but hey atleast we can pick up our weapons back (once bugs are fixed) unlike the things we fight. Also if you are fighting grineers and decided not to bring a melee weapon, well thats on you.

Player agency is significantly more important than computer-controlled agency. You can't compare players and enemies in this form, you can only compare them in 'how do you make an enemy that suits your player?'. However, what we've been getting constitutes being unfair against the player. I know that's hard to swallow with what we're capable of doing, but unfair mechanics are still unfair.

 

Also, if DE didn't want it to be viable, they wouldn't let you un-equip it, so with no melee weapon, that's not on the player, that's on DE for letting them un-equip it. And vice-verse, sword alone should be just as viable.

[Otakuwolf]

It's the grineer tamer that came along with the new dogs, he throws the new grineer mace.  It has a chance to disarm.

 

But hey, it's not like you can't pick up your weapons afterwards, right?  Right?

 

The funny thing is that the grineer tamer mace ALWAYS disarms, but is the one you craft that has a CHANCE to disarm.

Imo, eighter both should have a chance or both always disarm on hit.

[sp33chle55]

Hmmm... I am still on de's side and defend this mechanic. Its good, its plausible and i like it. It just needs tweaks here and there but its far from being unfair.

Just let us auto equip the weapon on walk over and its all good.

Edited October 27, 2014 by sp33chle55

[Barhandar]

I can't get my self to understand what kind of challenge do the community want . Some always complain about lack of real challenge but when there's something new that is challenging this kinds of thread just pop-up complaining about how it's a cheap trick .

We want challenge. Having absolutely no control over something happening isn't a challenge, it's pure frustration.

 

Examples? Here, have your examples:

 

* Drahk Master would be challenging if it was painted neon pink or was automatically marked on spawning. Alternately, drop their resistances (seriously, these guys are harder to kill than any of the heavies, and stun-resistant to boot) and make them telegraph boomerang attack clearly (raising it, glowing, before attack, having it glow in flight, etc). Alternately, drop the boomerang's disarm entirely.

 

* Toxic Ancient's proximity AoE would be challenging if it was telegraphed before, not after attack and had visible effect other than "OPEN DOOR GET ON FLOOR" (immediately downing everyone who isn't Rhino or Saryn in proximity).

 

* Gathering resources would be challenging if there wasn't a pile of crutches interfering with each other throwing entire resource system out of whack (alloy plate's drop chance + drop amount + SEVEN planets having alloy plate as opposed to only Sedna and one other, Control Module's drop amount + them being in the Void with increased drop chance, etc). If you're going to rebalance resources, you need to do statistics gathering: specifically, take all players with Mastery higher than 2, count relative ratios of their individual resources grouped by supposed rarity (i.e. Ferrite:Salvage:Nano Spores, Polymer Bundle:Circuits:Rubedo:Plastids:Alloy Plate, Control Module:Neural Sensors:Neurodes:Orokin Cells), then average the individual ratios. You're incredibly likely to see alloy plate and control modules dominating everything else.

If the resulting calculation isn't too processing-costly, you could schedule it to run every week and make Void drop Argon Crystal + three resources with lowest ratios. This would make Void desirable not purely for argon and Prime components.

 

* Good example of something actually challenging: Orokin traps. They have clear telegraphing (pressure plate look and sound, laser activation sound, laser activation animation and the beam), are incredibly dangerous if you do not evade them, and actually possible to evade (unlike things like commander switch).

[sp33chle55]

Yeah, i am totally going to hunt you down with a pink glowing boomerang and wave it around for 5 secs before i throw it in your direction just so i make sure you can avoid my special boomerang.

Thats just hilarious and it doesnt make it a better difficulty.

The drahk look so much different and stand out between the other grineer its your own fault ignoring them. And you dont suddenly lose all your weapons out of nowhere.

[Barhandar]

Yeah, i am totally going to hunt you down with a pink glowing boomerang and wave it around for 5 secs before i throw it in your direction just so i make sure you can avoid my special boomerang.

Thats just hilarious and it doesnt make it a better difficulty.

The drahk look so much different and stand out between the other grineer its your own fault ignoring them. And you dont suddenly lose all your weapons out of nowhere.

Just as hilarious as "oh, you didn't notice near-black, small, enemy that is incredibly hard to hit? your weapons are now gone, enjoy".

...except you do. Weapon loss wouldn't happen if you could detect the Drahk Master, therefore, losing your weapon DOES happen out of nowhere.

[Azawarau]

Its not bad as it is

 

At the very most it could have an auto change to secondary function

[unknow99]

It's buggy, but I like this feature. Why?

 

Oh god you just lose you Boltor Prime ohhhhhhhhhhhh you cant kill anything now even with you secondary or melee what a cruel world fulled with filthy grineer taking yours boltor primes !

 

Get disarmed once, shame on that Drahk master.

 

Get disarmed twice..play better! 

 

Their attacks should be more telegraphed. However this feature changes your playstyle, may take you away from your comfort zone where you just aim with your mouse and hold left-click.

 

If they disarm you in a predictable way and you still got ways to attack & recover your stolen weapon afterwards,then what's the matter?

[Barhandar]

If they disarm you in a predictable way and you still got ways to attack & recover your stolen weapon afterwards,then what's the matter?

They can leave you with no ways to attack, dropped weapons can be removed from existence, recovering your weapon takes few seconds - which is death on the levels where disarm matters.

 

Honestly, it would immediately become non-issue if, either, you automatically picked up _your_ weapon on walking nearby without any waiting time, or, your weapon just got locked out for certain duration instead of dropped.

They could be also unable to disarm your last weapon (more energy available for attaching it to your hands - it not wasted for sticking your other weapons to your back/thighs), which would deal with "can leave with no way to fight back" issue.

[unknow99]

They can leave you with no ways to attack, dropped weapons can be removed from existence, recovering your weapon takes few seconds - which is death on the levels where disarm matters.

 

Honestly, it would immediately become non-issue if, either, you automatically picked up _your_ weapon on walking nearby without any waiting time, or, your weapon just got locked out for certain duration instead of dropped.

They could be also unable to disarm your last weapon (more energy available for attaching it to your hands - it not wasted for sticking your other weapons to your back/thighs), which would deal with "can leave with no way to fight back" issue.

[Taranis49]

I can't get my self to understand what kind of challenge do the community want . Some always complain about lack of real challenge but when there's something new that is challenging this kinds of thread just pop-up complaining about how it's a cheap trick .

 

Seriously , all of us space ninja have access to ridiculous crowd control,mass AoE nuke or temporary god mode, enemy taking a weapon from you is too punishing ? really ?

 

A decent primer, since it's been posted around here enough:

 

 

Consistency, telegraphing and options with how to deal with problems is a big sticking point that the game suffers from in general when it comes to challenge. The level design/spawn system is partly to blame (e.g. enemies spawning in locations where they can't be engaged until you take a hit, broken lights were infamous for it, it's still an issue with other enemies).

[MichaelSD]

I think, in this case, less is more. Not that I dislike drahks per see, just when I have Scorpion, different heavies, flame throwers having a disarming drahk thrown in is just chaotic, not tactical or enjoyable for me.

[OHyeahWF]

You need to be sensitive in warframe, it like you playing modern warfare, you need to be sharp on what happening. Just like disarm your weapon,  I think the only problem is, the bug behind this new system need to be fix.