Limbo, Development And Feedback

[Rexlars]

What I would like is for Limbo to have a defense buff in the rift.  Maybe that could be an additional effect of Rift Surge?  Something very noticeably ala Mirage's Eclipse when in shadows.  Then it would be worth it to cast Cataclysm + Rift Surge and go in to gun/cut down the enemies inside.  It would make it so the that rift is a place where he really rules, which is not the case right now.  

 

Considering limbo has little ability damage and low health/shields, I feel that I should at least be able to combine these powers in a meaningful way that allows an appropriate payoff for the cost.  Right now that just doesn't happen and it's much safer to just rift walk and banish enemies to kill them one by one.  This is painfully slow and ultimately detrimental to group play because you just aren't getting much done.

 

 

This just my opinion

 

Banish should like Pull - Mag single cast - multi target

 

Combined : Banish + Rift Walk should fine for me

but about you can't pickup anything while you using Rift Walk should fix to aura skill everything in X m will be sent to rift, so that will make sense why you can pickup the resource.

Rift Walk should get some buff while you are in rift like damage reduce , I know you can't get any damage from enemies outside the rift but when you/enemy stand in same dimension you just can't do anything with endgame enemies in 1 vs 1 gameplay like ppl said, you just can survive when enemies not in same dimension..........

 

Rift Surge must reduce cast time, just look at Eclipse - Mirage that skills will get damage multiplier and reduce but that casting times just only 1sec or less !!? and PLEASE try to make this skill can deal multiplier damage to enemies who not the same dimension with yourself.

 

A lot of good suggestions here.

 

First thing I want to note (since the datamass issue was addressed) is that you can't pick up loot while in the Rift. There was an idea up above that said loot within x meters would get pulled into the Rift. This is a great way to add loot pickup to Rift Walking without breaking "immersion". Because as it is now, having to uncast Rift Walk every time I want to pick up loot, which is all the time, is very annoying & troublesome. Especially in survivals. 

 

Additionally, this may be a bug, but explosions, poison auras/clouds, auras in general, still effect you while in the Rift. This shouldn't be, seeing as how I'm in a different plane. 

 

Now, if Banish & Rift Walk were to be made into one ability, it should be done in a way that makes enemies you attack come into the rift with you. 

 

Example: You press the # key for Rift Walk

*Boom* You're in the rift. 

You melee/shoot an enemy

*Boom* They get a stagger/knowckdown effect & now they're in the rift too. 

 

Passing through enemies as a way of making them into the Rift is a BAD. Since enemies can swarm you & things of that nature, this change would make Rift Walk an unsafe means of escape or protection. Just imagine (especially as squishy Limbo) running into a lvl 50+ gunner while in Rift, him knocking you down then shooting the f&@% out of you, Plus, you may just want to run past a mob but the only way to get past them is running through the mob? No thank you. 

 

Also, a MUCH needed change is to allow us to pass through enemies while in the Rift. Many times have I gotten pinned down by infested or couldn't pass through a door because enemies were blocking my way. This would be a great QOL change. No bringing them into the rift or anything like that. Just no collision while I'm in the Rift. 

 

And also, Rift Surge (and whatever possible added benefits), IMO, should be passive. DoT to enemies in the Rift? Should be passive. Limbo getting a defense buff/ dmg reduction while in the Rift? Definitely passive. Things of that nature should be passive. 

 

Rift Surge should become a new power. It could possibly be a larger dmg multiplier, an increase in crit chance or dmg, maybe add random status proc to enemies in Rift. Possibly force enemies in the Rift to bunch up? Idk. Something. The Blink idea up above was cool. It could be really effective if the way I mentioned how to combine Rift Walk & Banish was implemented.

 

My idea for Cataclysm is this: Cataclysm now acts as hole in the continuum & merges the physical realm with the Void realm! Everything inside Cataclysm now exists in a plane stuck in Limbo (meaning in between)! Everything in the bubble now takes MAJOR damage from players inside the Rift & regular damage (possibly reduce it slightly) from players not in the Rift. What this means is you can now be outside of the bubble & still cause damage to enemies inside the bubble! Enemies that enter the bubble can no longer leave it until the duration ends, meaning they will HAVE to suffer the explosion dmg at the end! Enemies can still ENTER, however, even after casting. Players can pass in & out of the Cataclysm zone as they please. Also, if you are in the Cataclysm zone you are not sent to the Rift as that zone is not "the Rift". Enemies inside also suffer from a DoT. Players in the Rift can still enter the Cataclysm bubble & be unharmed by the enemies. 

 

So Limbo's power tray may look something like this:

 

#1. Banish: Can send players, specific enemies, AND objective targets (i.e. cryopods, etc but cryopods cost more power with a shorter duration) to the Rift. Still single target cast (maybe because of power 2). 

#2. Rift Walk 2.0 (Banish Fusion): Limbo sends himself to the Void & any target he attacks (melee or gun) is staggered/knocked down & sent to the Rift (this makes it much easier to send enemies to the Void, whether it be a crowd or just one & still keeping you safe). Limbo also gets a significant dmg reduction while Rift Walking. No target cap.

#3. Rift Surge 2.0 .... or Blink: Can add some suggested changes to Rift Surge or replace it with Soulswipe's Blink idea which would work well with Rift Walk 2.0

#.4 Cataclysm 2.0: Cataclysm now acts as hole in the continuum & merges the physical realm with the Void realm.....(the changes are listed right above this part). 

 

I believe these changes can encompass a lot of other players' desires while still keeping Limbo very synergized power wise. 

Edit: typos

Edited October 28, 2014 by Rexlars

[Meenmu]

Just dropping in real quick to throw some ideas into the mix:

Make banish work like ember's fireball. Anything besides allies that gets caught in the blast gets banished/unbanished based on which plane it is in at the time. This includes limbo himself, so rift walk can be replaced. 

Second ability can be replaced with an ability to drop a portal type of thing (something like a crack in the air). Allies/Limbo can run through it to jump back and forth between rift as needed. Could also be dropped in strategic positions to "banish" any enemies that run through it.

Rift surge should, rather than being a damage boost, be pure utility. Any enemy in the rift is stunned for some amount of time (like the blind effect).

Cataclysm is cool as is, but I'd like it even more if the bubble didn't shrink. The damage from the popping isn't really that significant and it works much better as an ability that establishes a sort of "rift arena."

[(PSN)Shadow_Of_Hunhow]

I don't have Limbo yet, since we don't have U15 yet, but here's how I think his abilities should be.

1. Banish: Either have a very small aoe or stay single target, because sending three or four heavies and a couple smaller enemies to the rift at the same time sounds like a bad idea. Also, add damage over time to any enemies within the rift.

2. Rift Walk: Stays as is, but add rift surges 1.5 damage to it by default, as well as a 50% damage reduction from enemies in the rift.

3. Rift Gate: Essentially cataclysm.

4. Collapse: Forces all allies, Limbo, and any enemies out of the rift, causing a large amount of damage to enemies, as well as giving them "void sickness" a proc that causes a 25% damage and accuracy decrease. Allies and Limbo will be given full shields upon exiting the rift. Energy cost is determined by the number of targets within the plane at the time of activation.

I think this would make him have more synergy, and make his abilites a little more diverse and make him more powerful.

[DarthBane1]

Yeah no on the combining Riftwalk and banish. Reason being is that it can go two ways.

 

A>could make it so it is dependant on the enemy it is cast upon. 

B> Would take your "defense power" away from you.(Which trust me all frames should have)

 

In truth his first two powers are pretty good. I agree it's not cool when someone tries to troll you and you can't get out however a simpler way to fix it without causing issues is let friendlies fire from the void. Possibly make it so they have a damage buff???

 

I think this should be the case anyways. 

[KrazyKubrowLady]

Things I would add to help Limbo's rep.

 

1. You should be able to pick objects up even if you're in the rift.

 

If this is added it would dull down the troll factor from banish and cataclysm by just a bit. I support that we should be able to pick up datamasses, power cores, mods and resources because one of the reasons people are complaining about being in the rift is that they can't pick anything up or they're rendered useless. It was also annoying that I couldn't pick up life supports in survival and I kept forgetting about the small fact that I would drop anything in my hand when I used rift walk. We're able to hold and shoot our weapons in the rift so why can't we pick up and/or hold objects on the same account. Troll problem #1 avoided

 

2. Rift Surge needs a damage output on cast effecting what is already in the rift at the time but the extra damage multiplier still applies to any enemy entering the rift after cast during the elapsed time.

 

I've been playing Limbo since Saturday and just raw 300% extra damage really doesn't make it all that much easier to take down enemies within cataclysm at higher levels. However if this were added defense type missions (intersception, mobile defense, defense, excavation) would be more appreciative of Limbo.

 

3. Allies banished should be able to send enemies to the rift by shooting them.

 

I use banish regularly on allies if they're having trouble or they need to go afk for a short time. I don't agree that giving other tenno/warframes the ability to come out of the rift at their leisure would solve problems but only cause more. So my solution to this would be why not give allies the ability to shoot enemies they want to kill and send those enemies to the void? Troll problem #2 avoided

 

I would change nothing about his Cataclysm because essentially it's about the same as Snowglobe when looking at it from a ranged enemies perspective.

 

My complaints:

 

Why is it that everyone complains about Limbo's Banish and Cataclysm being troll abilities when essentially these have already been put into existance.

 

1 Vauban's Bounce, Tesla(allows the Trollban to steal your kills and xp if they are stuck on you) and Vortex (Lowers framerate).

2 Loki's Switch Teleport.

3 Frost's Snowglobe.

4 Trinity's Well of Life.

5 Mirage's Hall of Mirrors + High particle/explosive weapons.

 

Why is it everyone puts out more stink about Limbo's abilities than these abilities posted here...? Cataclysm ultimately acts as a Snowglobe. Banish on allies act as a switch teleport/bounce alternative (I have actually gotten stuck inside of a door and a wall from an a@# of a vauban's bounce before) and Banish on an enemy is essentially like Trinity's Well of Life to other players who are not in the rift to kill these enemies.

 

Stop complaining about the Troll factor. The more you complain about it, the more ideas you give said trolls which encourages the children to keep doing it. Please. Stop.

[Cradicias]

Maybe make Rift Walk have a passive ability that auto Banishes enemies he hits? That way, it's a bit faster to attack enemies while you're doing your rift walkin' thang, and Banish can be reserved for damage/CC.

 

As for Banishing allies, maybe it extends this effect to people on your team, so they can auto-drag enemies into the rift when they attack them too?

 

Edit: Oh, and Rift Walk should auto pull your sentinel or Kubrow into the Rift as well.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Cradicias

[Arcane_Intelligence]

I´m very excited for upcoming changes (whatever they are gonna be).

 

I might even say that I "main" Limbo.

[Archwizard]

 

• Banish has already been updated to receive ‘a recast’, but we’re currently thinking about combining Banish and Rift Walk into the same power to help minimize mandatory ability rotations.

 

I am all for this. Transitioning would be much easier with the ability to simply tag an enemy with your weapon while in Rift Walk to take them with you. 

 

Not entirely sure about the step beyond that, though - Banish does have potential as its own ability as far as making allies invulnerable, or singling out enemies you just don't want to deal with. The trouble is that it's also disproportionately useful for trolling (especially as far as its unique applications to isolating an ally); sure, you should expect your allies to show restraint, but misuses of Loki/old Mag/Vauban/Valkyr have already shown that's not always the case. On top of that, its role could easily be overshadowed by Cataclysm and the above suggestion to Rift Walk (although just making Banish an AoE would send this a long way - but could also make worse issues for banishing your whole group in one cast, and risks making Cataclysm obsolete in terms of cost-effectiveness).

 

My big fear going into U15 was that Limbo's entire skillset would just focus on the one gimmick - phasing targets - on every ability, which has already been a major potential-limiting issue with Ember. Admittedly, the way he does it has some unique tactical implications, but at the same time he has room for some expansion; the set needs something intuitive to incent the player for sending enemies (or himself, or allies) into the rift, a payoff for all of his complexity to build up to. Frames like Loki, Zephyr, and Banshee have all the tools (via different methods) to set the player up to fight foes who cannot sufficiently fight back, and given he has control of a pocket universe, that's right up Limbo's alley.

 

... Also, I don't think anybody knows why Cataclysm shrinks.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Archwizard

[blazingcobalt]

Banish has already been updated to receive ‘a recast’, but we’re currently thinking about combining Banish and Rift Walk into the same power to help minimize mandatory ability rotations.

 

If you combine the two abilities, what will be the new ability?

[(PSN)Hiero_Glyph]

I'm skipping ahead a bit so sorry if I am rehashing ideas.

 

1) Give the entire team a reason to want to fight in the Rift.  Energy regeneration is nice but taking the time to move enemies and allies to the Rift does very little since they deal the same damage and are not debuffed.  The Rift should have some sort of benefit on its own more than just energy regeneration; maybe a reduction of armor/shields.

 

2a) Banish needs a major rework as it is currently the best troll ability in the game.  Also, there should be a way to Banish more than one enemy at a time.  Perhaps we can have the first charged ability where the radius increased the longer the ability is charged.

 

2b) Allies need a way to manually exit the Rift when Banished.

 

3) Rift Surge is very lackluster as it is outdone by almost every damage buff in the game (and those do not require the use of other skills to activate).  Something like making it work both inside (+100%) and outside (+50%) of the Rift, adding an exclusive status effect for Rift damage, or make activating Rift Surge provide the buff to any allies already inside the Rift (Banished or inside Cataclysm).

 

4) Limbo and allies should be able to pick up items while in the Rift.  If an item is dropped while in the Rift it would revert back to its regular state allowing any player to pick it up.

 

5) Rift Walk should be a toggled ability allowing Limbo to enter/exit the Rift at will.  When Rift Walk is active a passive buff should be applied to Limbo such as a speed boost, armor/shield increase, or shield regen bonus.  When Limbo is inside Cataclsym's Rift area he can activate Rift Walk to gain this bonus, or make it similar to Rift Surge where it gives to bonus to any allies already inside the Rift.

 

This would make Limbo the true master of the Rift and make his allies want to fight in the Rift as well.

[Arlayn]

Banishing them one at a time is good for tactical combat. If I was forced to MASS banish them I wouldn't use it at all. I like to bring one enemy at a time into the rift to pick them off. If anything I think Rift walk needs more time, and Limbo as a whole needs more energy to allow staying in Rift walk mode longer, and banish enemies one at a time to pick them off from the rest of the crowd as taking on an entire army while a napalm, kubrow, or bombard is tanking you all at once can become quite a heavy burden on a light armored Limbo.

 

Being able to control who you fight is where Limbo should excel, and should be extended to who should, and shouldn't be able to fight during a rift control fight. Such as moving certain enemies into the rift with limbo, and one other player who are light armored to pick off light enemies like scorpions, shields, and various lancers while the heavy units stay within real space to fight heavy units, or vice versa picking off one heavy unit at a time while heavies like Rhino, and friends smash through the weak small fry.

 

edit: Also the 4th ability should be left as is. Its basically so much better than Frost Snow globe. I can trap a group of enemies who can now no longer shoot me till they come out of the rift in which I can cut them down one at a time as they come out with Dragon nikana, or Boltor prime. It makes controlling the enemy coming at me more easy.

Edited October 28, 2014 by Arlayn

[unknow99]

I'd also like his abilities visual effects to be more impressive...

 

Compared to Loki's invisibility, it's a little underwhelming. Moreover, the long-duration flickering lights give people headaches... :/

 

Like a toned down negative dimension, for instance.

 

Edited October 28, 2014 by unknow99

[Brynslustafir]

Take away his ability to affect other players. 

[unknow99]

Take away his ability to affect other players. 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/334516-limbo-development-and-feedback/#entry3753360

 

I think this post is genius for that issue.

[RiouHotaru]

I do think Banish and Rift Walk should remain separate abilities.  Rift Walk has it's own uses outside of targeting enemies in the Rift:

 

- Limbo can use Rift Walk to safely revive allies

 

- Limbo can use Rift Walk to escape from situations where he is being overwhelmed by the enemy

 

- Limbo can use Rift Walk to reposition themselves to flank enemies and attack from other angles

 

I do agree that Banish should be greater than single target, but at the same time, I worry that making it an AoE might create situations where you use it to save an ally and then accidentally drag the enemies you were trying to save your friend from into the Rift with them, which would defeat the purpose.

 

Would it be possible to make it single target on allies, and AoE on enemies (but only effect enemies, in the same way that Fire Blast doesn't hurt allies)?  That way you could use it to save a friend.  Either by Banishing the enemies, or displacing your ally.

 

Or make it possible to cast Banish while under Rift Walking, so I can drag enemies into the Rift with me while I'm there, allowing me to pick them off at my leisure (instead of Banishing and then Walking)

 

I also think Cataclysm is a sound idea, but the fact pickups don't cross over doesn't make any sense, and the shrinking area makes it's uses awkward.  However, I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that making Cataclysm static or a toggle helps either, because then you risk overlap with Frost's Snow Globe.

 

Rift Surge definitely needs to either offer additional boosts or increased damage beyond the 1.5x multiplier.

Edited October 28, 2014 by RiouHotaru

[Brynslustafir]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/334516-limbo-development-and-feedback/#entry3753360

 

I think this post is genius for that issue.

Instead of providing a solution to the problem, it would be better to prevent the problem from occuring in the first place. 

 

Take away his ability to affect other players and you uproot the problem, not just suppress it. That way, players can't even banish each other to begin with. 

Edited October 28, 2014 by Plasmaface

[RiouHotaru]

Instead of providing a solution to the problem, it would be better to prevent the problem from occuring in the first place. 

 

Take away his ability to affect other players and you uproot the problem, not just suppress it. That way, players can't even banish each other to begin with. 

 

Taking away his ability to banish players turns him from support into a Ash-style Caster Frame where his abilities only benefit himself, which isn't the design goal for Limbo in the first place.

 

There are uses to banishing allies, you just need to tweak it.  Besides, there are plenty of other powers, listed earlier, which can be used to troll people JUST as badly as Banish.

[GideonG]

Thank you for looking into his powerset. I do think Banish and Riftwalk should be rolled into one ability, since they function exactly the same just on seperate targets.

[Brynslustafir]

Taking away his ability to banish players turns him from support into a Ash-style Caster Frame where his abilities only benefit himself, which isn't the design goal for Limbo in the first place.

 

There are uses to banishing allies, you just need to tweak it.  Besides, there are plenty of other powers, listed earlier, which can be used to troll people JUST as badly as Banish.

None of the other powers can take away your ability to fight for an extended period of time. 

 

If DE wants limbo to be a team support frame, they need to take things like trolling potential into account long before releasing him. You can't just let Limbo freely banish players, that's simply ridiculous. The fact that we still dont have a fix to let us escape from it ourselves only adds to the frustration and sours my opinion of him even further. I honestly don't care about the benefits of banishing as long as the benefits are so heavily outweighed by the costs. And when the costs outweigh the benefits, you'd be better off removing it all together. So instead of deleting banishing, just remove limbos ability to cast it on other players.

 

Problem solved. 

Edited October 28, 2014 by Plasmaface

[RiouHotaru]

None of the other powers can take away your ability to fight for an extended period of time. 

 

- Vauban putting Bounces around an entire room making it impossible to walk in a straight line

- Loki constantly Switch Teleporting which disorients and makes it difficult face enemies

- Volt's Speed changing the perspective which gives some players motion issues

- Frost's Snow Globe making it difficult to see anything, not to mention being impossible to shoot into

- Hall of Mirrors particle spam which can toss FPS into the toilet or cause people to crash

 

Need I go on?

[direcyphre]

 

Everyone hates banish being use by trolls, and the skills giving the frame a bad name. By the way I freaking love Limbo as a support frame.

 

What if Banish was a buff that sat on the friendly player and went off when they took lethal damage. Throws them into the rift to recharge shields and get out of dodge.

 

The benefit of this the new Rep mod that was added for it would still work, and make banish even a better tool to saving people.

 

Now thats a feature I could get behind: An activated enchantment that would put a friendly player in the rift if they hit a certain health threshold.

[unknow99]

None of the other powers can take away your ability to fight for an extended period of time. 

 

If DE wants limbo to be a team support frame, they need to take things like trolling potential into account long before releasing him. You can't just let Limbo freely banish players, that's simply ridiculous. The fact that we still dont have a fix to let us escape from it ourselves only adds to the frustration and sours my opinion of him even further. I honestly don't care about the benefits of banishing as long as the benefits are so heavily outweighed by the costs. And when the costs outweigh the benefits, you'd be better off removing it all together. So instead of deleting banishing, just remove limbos ability to cast it on other players.

 

Problem solved. 

But that'd drastically add a -100 to his coop value,unfortunately... :/

[GideonG]

None of the other powers can take away your ability to fight for an extended period of time.

 

I agree, this also needs to be addressed. Not just for trolling purposes. Banishing an ally for 1 minute can really be a detriment to your team, even if by accident. I understand we will be able to bring them back, but it really shouldn't work that way. Either they should be able to return themselves, or it should still allow them to effect enemies outside the void to some degree.

[Lynxh]

I do think Banish and Rift Walk should remain separate abilities.  Rift Walk has it's own uses outside of targeting enemies in the Rift:

 

- Limbo can use Rift Walk to safely revive allies

 

- Limbo can use Rift Walk to escape from situations where he is being overwhelmed by the enemy

 

- Limbo can use Rift Walk to reposition themselves to flank enemies and attack from other angles

 

I do agree that Banish should be greater than single target, but at the same time, I worry that making it an AoE might create situations where you use it to save an ally and then accidentally drag the enemies you were trying to save your friend from into the Rift with them, which would defeat the purpose.

 

Would it be possible to make it single target on allies, and AoE on enemies (but only effect enemies, in the same way that Fire Blast doesn't hurt allies)?  That way you could use it to save a friend.  Either by Banishing the enemies, or displacing your ally.

 

Or make it possible to cast Banish while under Rift Walking, so I can drag enemies into the Rift with me while I'm there, allowing me to pick them off at my leisure (instead of Banishing and then Walking)

 

I also think Cataclysm is a sound idea, but the fact pickups don't cross over doesn't make any sense, and the shrinking area makes it's uses awkward.  However, I wouldn't feel comfortable saying that making Cataclysm static or a toggle helps either, because then you risk overlap with Frost's Snow Globe.

 

Rift Surge definitely needs to either offer additional boosts or increased damage beyond the 1.5x multiplier.

 

 

You already can use Banish while in the Rift btw, that's one the primary ways I've been using it :D.

 

Also, prefer Banish and Rift walk to be separate. They don't serve the same function or use. Making them one just makes using both functions/uses more of a hassle. In the same way I am against making Banish AoE, Cataclysm serves for the purpose of mass banishing(among others). And making Banish AoE means having LESS control over what and whom you banish. So I am fundamentally against it since it negates more uses then it adds.

 

Rift Surge feels out of place to me, at first the description made me think that it would cause enemies within the Rift to suffer damage by form of a DoT. Which seemed fitting. Only to find out it's a personal damage buff. Which is odd considering that all his other abilities can serve team purposes imo and this one doesn't. From that standpoint (and the fact I personally find it a boring skill) I'd rather see something more fitting to his Lore/image.

[direcyphre]

- Vauban putting Bounces around an entire room making it impossible to walk in a straight line

- Loki constantly Switch Teleporting which disorients and makes it difficult face enemies

- Volt's Speed changing the perspective which gives some players motion issues

- Frost's Snow Globe making it difficult to see anything, not to mention being impossible to shoot into

- Hall of Mirrors particle spam which can toss FPS into the toilet or cause people to crash

 

Need I go on?

And none of those make you do 0 damage by default. Visuals are just visuals, you can still shoot at any point. Its fairly minor:

-Bounce has a fixed number of bounces.

-Switch teleporting is the only troll ability, but ultimately it is only done while not in combat (else the loki get caught amidst the horde)

-I can't recall the last time Volt's speed changed perspective, it just makes you faster in everything.

-Snowglobe hasn't done anything detrimental because it is a fixed deployable in a very mobile game. If anyone were to try and block your shots, you can just enter it.

-Hall of Mirrors is just plain awesome, even moreso with shiny disco balls.