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Limbo, Development And Feedback


DE_Adam
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Short version:
More fluidity, more payoff, less trolling.

 

Limbo

- Banished allies can clear the effect by attacking non-Banished enemies.

- Rift Walk causes all enemies in the "material world" that the player attacks to enter the rift until Rift Walk ends; using this effect has an energy cost per target.

- Rift Surge roots all enemies who are in the rift at the moment of casting, until Rift Surge ends or they leave the rift. Damage multiplier affects anyone who enters the caster's rift while active.

- Cataclysm can be detonated prematurely by recasting the effect. Deals a second instance of Blast damage to anyone in the initial radius when it ends.

- Being inside the rift also removes collision against entities outside of the rift. Drops can be picked up on either side of the rift.

 

QoL changes like this would solve just about all of Limbo's problems, by making his abilities more fluid and even tweaking Rift Surge into the type of payoff his kit needs, while removing the penalty towards allies.

 

Would be nice if you could throw on a way to Banish Decoys and defense objectives, of course, perhaps with some kind of duration penalty.

Edited by Archwizard
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QoL changes like this would solve just about all of Limbo's problems, by making his abilities more fluid and even tweaking Rift Surge into the type of payoff his kit needs, while removing the penalty towards allies.

 

Would be nice if you could throw on a way to Banish Decoys and defense objectives, of course, perhaps with some kind of duration penalty.

I still would like it if Cataclysm'd enemies could not leave the Cataclysm. It'd be a nice form of CC.

There are many other good suggestions, but so far that one is my favorite.

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I still would like it if Cataclysm'd enemies could not leave the Cataclysm. It'd be a nice form of CC.

There are many other good suggestions, but so far that one is my favorite.

 

Why else would I suggest a root on Rift Surge?

 

The problem is that if you just had Cataclysm keep enemies in and compel them to keep moving toward the center as it shrinks, you'd basically just end up with a less-useful clone of Vortex.

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Why else would I suggest a root on Rift Surge?

 

The problem is that if you just had Cataclysm keep enemies in and compel them to keep moving toward the center as it shrinks, you'd basically just end up with a less-useful clone of Vortex.

If they only stayed rooted whilst inside the Cataclysm, then once it shrank past them they would no longer be affected.

It would be like Vortex, however with a much larger range, and the usual benefits for players who step inside.

Unless you suggest to remove the Cataclysm shrinking.

Edited by GreyEnneract
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A solution for the whole being banished fiasco would be to give Banished players the option to un-banish themselves. Possibly using the Interact key while being Banished would negate the effects imparted by the ability, and this would be a slap in the face to all the Limbo trolls out there.

easy but the inter act button isnt the real deal we need somthing which is not used much but still fitting into  the lore like a back flip.

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Did not feel like reading the whole list but here's what I think could work.

 

For the visuals of any rift activity I don't think the whole spooky dark look is needed, why not just go with the visual effects of the Valkyre's Hysteria without the blurred peripherals, maybe stardust or mathematical equations if you really need to show off that he is a space walking mathematician, the whole dark fog thing though is just a pain though and not to aesthetically pleasing.

 

As for his rift abilities I think a lot of the should be merged or dropped all together.

 

 

Banish needs an update to be an AoE spell instead of just a solo target, also it should be enemy targets only.

 

Rift Walk should be replaced with an ability that allows for Rift Walking for Limbo and  the team and provides the 1.5 damage buff from Rift Surge, team members would just need to hit a key (perhaps a new "abillity" 5) if they don't wish to fight on the astral plane. Exiting the plane prior to the spells duration ending would cause a rift explosion doing X amount of damage (depending on duration left on the buff) and possibly knock down to enemies within range.

 

Cataclysm needs a rework as well, I've only seen the skill used by others (my frame is not high enough yet) but I'd suggest make it more cataclysmic, Instead of just being a giant field that enemies can walk into that would damage them what if it pulsed until it's collapse?

If you let the spell run it's course the pulses in space would go in and out doing it's damage each time the outer wall of the pulse hit an enemy therefore doing the most damage at it's point of origin while the rift shrinks. Then to top things off if you pressed the ability button again while the timer is still ticking it would cancel out the pulses causing an AoE knock down blast such as with what I mentioned earlier. If you let the ability run it's course there would be no explosion because there would be much more base damage at it's center.

 

As for a replacement skill for Rift Surge, Limbo was supposed to be some space jumper, why not give him a teleporting ability that acts like a Rift Vacuum? For instance, say you were surrounded and Cast the "Rift Jump" ability. The enemies around you would be sucked into the rift at your point of origin aslo being drawn into each other like a Vaubans Vortex. They would only collide with each other (or no one) and become knocked down with no damage done outside of entering the rift. But the point that Limbo jumps to opens up much more violently hitting enemies around that area with void energy doing X amount of damage without putting them into the rift.

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I'd say give rifted enemeis a DoT that scales with power damage, maybe like 200 radiation or corrosive damage per second, as enemeis cant handle the conditions in the rift as good as Warframes can (we actually regenrate energy).

 

Also Limbos fourth skill doesnt do what is describes, there is no second explosion when the cataclysm closes, aslo the rift enter and exit damage doesnt properly scale with power strength.

 

If you let allies collect and pick up stuff while in rift additionally to what I wrote above, I'd actually already be happy.

Edited by Genoscythe
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i like the idea of banish goes in a cone for extra area affect, then u can easily cast many enemies out in the rift, but shall they stay in the rift? or how should u be able to bring them back. recasting  the spell to unbanish or to banish more in a different location? and if u want to banish more in a new direction, should u automaticually unbanish a target if he happens to be in line of sight for the new cone or should he remain in the rift?

 

rift walk i think is really good the way it is, just a little clumpsy with the casting animation, should be almost instant or no animation for more flexibility for my taste. would be great for dodging enemy napalms for example.

 

3 need a serious buff effect of any type, or complete reworke if in the rift u are buffed even without ability 3. either having it the way it is and buffing u, or like have a huge knockback or something to all enemies in the rift close to, or just knockdown.

 

4. i love this spell, dosen´t deal good damage but that is okej, though i hate that u are not able to recast/cancel the ability to be ablel to cast it in a different location or multi cast it, because of the shrinking size it would be really good if u could multi cast it. or u will find the same problem as before with trinity, finding a good balance between duratation and other mods, and if u cut down the duratation u are lowering the effectivness of thet other abilitys.

 

then i have a question, should allies be able to cast spells trough the rift plane to the other plane or is that just a bugg? and should slash damage and fire damage remain on u after  u have entered the rift.

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How limbo should be, without changing much. Your teammates should be able to get out of limbo with a melee attack.

 

Banish - Single target removal, slight damage, and tool to put your teammates into limbo. It's fine but keeping it up on your teammates gets old fast, so it should last indefinitely on them. Could use a cast time boost because even with natural its slow to use on enemies.

 

Rift Walk - Fine, very lazy after the first skill, again it should last until you choose to end it

 

Rift Surge - Boring skill, but acceptable skill on its own.

 

Cataclysm - This is his defensive skill and his skill to isolate multiple targets, the bubble unnecessarily shrinks, it really feels like it only shrinks because we don't have that yet and not for any particular reason, but its biggest offense is that it can't be recast while it's active, it must have a 0 cd and preferably lower cast time because again it takes long even with natural talent.

Edited by Nadrac
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Easy fixes for Limbo that won't require his abilities to change much.

 

Banish:

 

- Now a small area of affect akin to Mag's pull or Oberon's Smite.

- Instead of 500 impact damage have it do 300 blast and 300 puncture with a 100% proc chance on both types.

- Allies who have banished get a special buff allowing them to fire weapons at enemies outside of the rift with a 20% damage debuff. Does not work on Limbo only allies.

- Allies can leave the rift if they want by hitting X.

 

Rift Walk:

 

- Limbo can pass through enemies that are not in the rift.

- Passing through enemies gives them a heavy move speed slow and attack speed slow. Thus, a Limbo who is using Rift Walk to escape danger or heal, can still help by running through enemies and slowing them down for his team.

- Every enemy Limbo slows eats 5 energy.

 

Rift Surge:

 

- Limbo and Allies convert 10% of their outgoing damage while in the rift into shields and health. Similar to leech eximus.

- Damage bonus brought down from 300% to 200%

- The buff allies receive from Banish allowing them to fire on enemies outside the rift stacks with the life leech and shield leech caused by Surge.

 

Cataclysm:

 

- Have it shrink at half the speed it currently shrinks if allies or Limbo are inside.

- Have it shrink at twice the speed it currently shrinks if no allies are within it.

- Slightly lessen the particle effects, or more appropriately, have them based more off Limbo's energy color

- The same buff allies receive from Banish allowing them to fire out of the rift plane works in the Cataclysm sphere

- Damage lowered from 500 Blast to 200 Blast and 200 Puncture with 100% proc chance

- Enemies can no longer wander out of the Cataclysm.

- Enemies are trapped inside and slowly pushed together as the sphere shrinks. This allows Limbo to temporarily hold enemies in place similar to Vauban's Bastille or Hydroid's Puddle.

- When the sphere finally collapses all enemies within take 400 Puncture instead of 300 impact.

- Enemies within a 5 meter radius of the collapsing sphere take a 100% Blast proc.

 

Dis. Especially enemies not being able to leave Cataclysm sounds great.

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I think cataclysm could be changed just slightly.

 

At its core, cataclysm is a portal between planes. Passing through the event horizon damages foes, but the portal shrinks rapidly placing tea mates in a position where they can no longer harm those within the bubble.

 

Why not allow gunfire to pass through the event horizon too?

 

then to incentivize being inside the bubble, all enemies inside could take increased damage, similar to Molecular Prime.

 

This would remove the inconvenience of the ability and add benefits to make it a viable power.

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I think cataclysm could be changed just slightly.

 

At its core, cataclysm is a portal between planes. Passing through the event horizon damages foes, but the portal shrinks rapidly placing tea mates in a position where they can no longer harm those within the bubble.

 

Why not allow gunfire to pass through the event horizon too?

 

then to incentivize being inside the bubble, all enemies inside could take increased damage, similar to Molecular Prime.

 

This would remove the inconvenience of the ability and add benefits to make it a viable power.

Taking into account that this is a portal, by your own words, should cataclysm activate rift walk for teammates should they pass through it (ie walking out of it will keep them in the Rift, but walking back in will take them out of the Rift)?

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What I'd like to see.

 

General Rift stuff:

Being able to grab pickups. Preferably regardless of whether they're in a cataclysm or something, but at least inside cataclysms.

Effectively infinite punch-through. All that nice cover isn't in the Rift after all.

Ability for allies to leave the Rift using a double-tap of the Interact key. Like, if there's nothing in front of them to interact with, and they hit the interact key, they get a pop-up thing for the interact button like they would for any console or datamass or whatever. Then, if they hit the button again in a 1-2 second window, they leave the Rift.

 

Banish: honestly, I think it's about fine as it is, so long as the other abilities receive some changes. Yeah, being able to bring a lot of stuff into the Rift at once would be good, but single-targeting is often quite nice.

 

Rift Walk: faster cast speed. Even a literal zero cast time may not be too fast. Or really, I think what I'd like to see most is a zero cast time, but a 0.7 second delay or so after casting before you actually enter the void (with the delay reduced by +cast speed). So there's no interruption in moving and shooting and casting, but you can't dodge everything without a bit of planning.

 

Rift Surge: Something. Something more than a damage multiplier. Maybe something survival or control related. Or just a chunk of up-front damage. But something more.

 

Cataclysm: Cancel with a second button-press. The inability to break and/or reposition it is problematic.

Edited by Drazhya
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Short version:

More fluidity, more payoff, less trolling.

 

 

Limbo

- Banished allies can clear the effect by attacking non-Banished enemies.

- Rift Walk causes all enemies in the "material world" that the player attacks to enter the rift until Rift Walk ends; using this effect has an energy cost per target.

- Rift Surge roots all enemies who are in the rift at the moment of casting, until Rift Surge ends or they leave the rift. Damage multiplier affects anyone who enters the caster's rift while active.

- Cataclysm can be detonated prematurely by recasting the effect. Deals a second instance of Blast damage to anyone in the initial radius when it ends.

- Being inside the rift also removes collision against entities outside of the rift. Drops can be picked up on either side of the rift.

QoL changes like this would solve just about all of Limbo's problems, by making his abilities more fluid and even tweaking Rift Surge into the type of payoff his kit needs, while removing the penalty towards allies.

 

Would be nice if you could throw on a way to Banish Decoys and defense objectives, of course, perhaps with some kind of duration penalty.

 

I like your ideas, but instead of the root, I would change Rift Surge in some kind of enhancement with a toggle that consumes energy per second. It should be something like this:

Your 3rd ability (name here) enhances your other abilites while active

-Banish sends all units in a cone in front of you into the Rift, instead of a single target

-Rift Walk causes all enemies hit by your weapons will enter the Rift until you leave

-Cataclysm will do another instance of damage at the end of the ability. Enemies inside Cataclysm will take 300% increased damage.Cataclysm can be detonated before the end of the duration.

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I like your ideas, but instead of the root, I would change Rift Surge in some kind of enhancement with a toggle that consumes energy per second. It should be something like this:

Your 3rd ability (name here) enhances your other abilites while active

-Banish sends all units in a cone in front of you into the Rift, instead of a single target

-Rift Walk causes all enemies hit by your weapons will enter the Rift until you leave

-Cataclysm will do another instance of damage at the end of the ability. Enemies inside Cataclysm will take 300% increased damage.Cataclysm can be detonated before the end of the duration.

The problem with that is that you'd have to cast that, in which case your energy starts draining at a certain rate, THEN you cast your enhanced abilities. In no time flat you're going to be out of energy, void energy restore or no.

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The problem with that is that you'd have to cast that, in which case your energy starts draining at a certain rate, THEN you cast your enhanced abilities. In no time flat you're going to be out of energy, void energy restore or no.

Actually i was thinking about an ability without cast animation, with a visual effect like the melee channeling, this should make it way more viable. About the energy consumption per second, I was thinking about 1-2 max per second. The energy regeneration from the Rift would really help. It shold be like if Limbo is unable to gain energy from the Rift and in exchange he will gain more powerful abilities.

Do you think that this would work?

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Though I was initially a supporter of the suggestion to combine Banish and Rift Walk, I do realize now that it would be detrimental. That said, Limbo needs greater support of his rift abilities than he currently does.

 

Rift Walk: I would suggest that this ability becomes toggle-able. Players could have a form of ghosting playstyle; they could hide away and regenerate energy, while avoiding damage, but enemies they pass through take away chunks of energy to avoid being completely overpowered. It would help Limbo players against enemies they pull in with Banish, and would help make being in the rift feel better, and more reliable.

 

Rift Surge: A surge is defined, usually, as greater-than-normal power levels travelling through a medium. Though this is portrayed by a damage multiplier, I think an ability where a pulse is sent out through the rift to hit all enemies affected, and/or buff all allies affected, would be much better. Builds could consist of great efficiency, where the player could just spam pulses to fry rifted enemies, or great strength, to send out a powerful pulse, one that could give considerable buffs to allies. Buffs could consist of health regen, better armor, better damage buffs, or a status chance multiplier.

 

Cataclysm is currently considered a problem to navigate around rather than a field to gain bonuses from. Either you're in it, or you're out of it, and its constantly shrinking radius means that you're more likely out of it. A few comments have suggested that Cataclysm prevent enemies from leaving it; this offers much better crowd control than it currently does, as well as offer some creative builds. A player could mod for max duration and low range, and by the end of Cataclysm's duration, it's crushed all enemies within it into a tiny ball, and players have spent the last couple seconds flinging abilities into it. It could also synergize well with the suggested Rift Surge as a damaging element, since enemies caught within Cataclysm wouldn't be able to avoid repeated surging.

 

Tatersail and Gizogen pointed out that on the surface Limbo may be viewed as crowd control, when in reality there's no real way to stop enemies from coming or going from Cataclysm, and Banishing one enemy at a time can't be considered 'crowd' control, as well as there is no one better for 1v1 fighting than Limbo. As a comparable example: the game Warhammer allows heroes to challenge one another. While challenging, no units from either side may interfere with their duel. Any hero can challenge another hero, but typically you'd only challenge, or accept a challenge from, an enemy hero you could reasonably defeat.

This is effectively what Limbo does, with Banish/Rift Walk. He creates a field on which he and another unit can duel, without outside interference. This would be great, if Limbo wasn't as squishy as he was, and any enemy easily defeated wouldn't be worth banishing in the first place. It's a slow combination of mechanics, and Warframe doesn't do slow. If you aren't fast, you're left behind, which is part of why Limbo and his abilities are so disliked right now.

Edited by Wurdyburd
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but we’re currently thinking about combining Banish and Rift Walk into the same power to help minimize mandatory ability rotations.

I feel that Rift walk and rift surge should be murged instead because banish if changed to be used as a cone AOE would be a great way to mitigate damage to yourself rather then banish+riftwalk would completly take away from that.

 

Regardless how unloved I feel playing as a limbo (mostly can't get in capture matches cause people think I will grief them)I love how unique he is.GJ DE :D

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