[Discussion] Cooldowns Vs. Energy Orbs (Again)

[PaperAlien]

You don't address the original problem of people waiting around. Nukes will still have to have long cooldowns, even with reduction mods, and will still cause small delays in gameplay.

 

Its fine for small skills, but I imagine it was never a problem for those skills in the beginning.

 

So I vote no, sorry.

Isn't the point of an ultimate to frontload damage/effect? Under the current system, using an ultimate would generally leave you rather short on energy as well.

 

I also thought of a kind of hybrid system (although someone's probably thought of it before)... well, mainly energy system. My idea is to use the current energy system, but give energy a significant passive regen, somewhere around 10-20/ second is my guess, but that number could be better fine-tuned with playtesting. The energy regen artifact would be changed or buffed, and energy orbs would be changed or removed entirely. The end result would be a system similar to the current one, but solving several current issues.

 

Thoughts?

[J-SHERIDAN]

It would be more sensible to break up powers into two seperate groups - Some that use Cooldowns and others that use Energy.

 

Things that use energy would be the Ultimates while the lesser utility skills use cooldowns. Mostly the 1 / 2 powers thus people can happily be using Shurikan, Force Bolts, Fireball, Sonar, Well of Life without getting into issues of them not being cost effective.

[DataShade]

An interesting idea, but how would the idea of cooldowns be incorporated with the energy system?  In this case, the utility of one system seems to preclude the utility of the other.

 

Make the orbs reduce remaining cooldown by the same proportion of the power's energy cost that their 25-energy would have restored; I don't feel like it's a needed change but it wouldn't be hard to code.

[TunaMayo]

although i don't like the idea of cooldowns, the only thing i would like it for is ultimates.

 

So the first three powers can be spammed, energy coming from energy pool and blue orbs.

 

The ultimates however do not use energy, instead have say 45 - 60 second cooldown. I feel this would prevent people not using certain powers in order to save up for the ulti, Volt not bothering with shield/speed so can save for overload, but would prevent spamming of ultis.

[WingsOfGryphin]

You can't cast 3 ultimates in a row with CD system, while with orbs you just save them up until needed. 
 

[Hippaforalkus]

Has anyone considered passive energy regeneration + current orb pickup system? This is essentially the best of both worlds - instead of individual cooldowns, they all use the same resource, and the resource regenerates. Burst capability is limited by total energy pool, and sustained capability is dependent upon orb pickups + regeneration.

Mods that increase your passive regeneration (possibly to incredibly awesome levels)?

Mods that increase the energy you get from orbs (with equally awesome results?)

We already know that the warframes have reactors in them. Regenerating energy makes a lot of sense.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Hippaforalkus

[Tsukinoki]

Has anyone considered passive energy regeneration + current orb pickup system? This is essentially the best of both worlds - instead of individual cooldowns, they all use the same resource, and the resource regenerates. Burst capability is limited by total energy pool, and sustained capability is dependent upon orb pickups + regeneration.

Mods that increase your passive regeneration (possibly to incredibly awesome levels)?

Mods that increase the energy you get from orbs (with equally awesome results?)

We already know that the warframes have reactors in them. Regenerating energy makes a lot of sense.

The only issue with this is that like a CD system it would slow the game down quite a bit.  People would start hiding in cover until their energy is fully regenerated.  The reason people don't do this commonly with energy siphon is that it is such a small effect that no one wants to cuddle in a corner for 200 seconds.  And if you make the energy regeneration a fast one all you would see is pure ability spam through all of the levels + waiting in corners when someone finally does run dry.

That would require nerfs to quite a few powerful abilities so that you cant just faceroll everything even easier than you can now.   The reason for the nerfs? So that people actually would use their guns and not just be able to ability spam a boss and win, though tbh a loki, rhino, or trinity would be able to easily do that under an energy regen system pretty easily even at slower regeneration rates because of their lower cost abilities that make them nearly invulnerable.

They need to find a balance between using guns and using abilities, and Im sorry, but the system and the mods that you are suggesting would make abilities far too spammable.  Much more so than they already are.

[TunaMayo]

Just out of interest does energy siphon stack?

[Tsukinoki]

Just out of interest does energy siphon stack?

Yes it does.  If you have 4 energy siphon artifacts you are regenerating 4 energy every other second.

[Retroperspect]

you need four people with Energy Siphon for that though but yes it's possible

[Earl.Grey]

You can play as a caster type you just need a Rare mod (Flow) and a team of 4 players with Energy Siphon, you will rarely run out of Energy this way. Hell I barely shoot anything with my Banshee and it's seldom that I run out of Energy, only thing I need to shoot are heavies/ancients.

Edited April 24, 2013 by Earl.Grey

[ST_III]

The only issue with this is that like a CD system it would slow the game down quite a bit.  People would start hiding in cover until their energy is fully regenerated.  The reason people don't do this commonly with energy siphon is that it is such a small effect that no one wants to cuddle in a corner for 200 seconds.  And if you make the energy regeneration a fast one all you would see is pure ability spam through all of the levels + waiting in corners when someone finally does run dry.

That would require nerfs to quite a few powerful abilities so that you cant just faceroll everything even easier than you can now.   The reason for the nerfs? So that people actually would use their guns and not just be able to ability spam a boss and win, though tbh a loki, rhino, or trinity would be able to easily do that under an energy regen system pretty easily even at slower regeneration rates because of their lower cost abilities that make them nearly invulnerable.

They need to find a balance between using guns and using abilities, and Im sorry, but the system and the mods that you are suggesting would make abilities far too spammable.  Much more so than they already are.

No, people would use thier guns and swords while it is on cd.

People right now are using solely guns/swords and saving energy, so it wouldn't break the game or make it impossibly hard.

The only thing that forces people to hide around corners is to wait for shields to recharge

Edited April 24, 2013 by ST_III

[rhoenix]

You can play as a caster type you just need a Rare mod (Flow) and a team of 4 players with Energy Siphon, you will rarely run out of Energy this way. Hell I barely shoot anything with my Banshee and it's seldom that I run out of Energy, only thing I need to shoot are heavies/ancients.

 

True, but it doesn't help a solo player as much, given only one Energy Siphon.

 

After playing on the Frost for the past few days as I was clearing out Europa and Sedna solo, the mods available do help bias a given Warframe toward being more a tank, or more of a caster.  Once I set Frost up as a caster (with Flow, Streamline, Focus, and Reach), along with my single Energy Siphon, I was able to clear most of each mission operating mostly as a caster first, using guns and melee to finish off weakened opponents.  Before, I'd seen the obvious utility of setting Frost mostly up as a tank, and just stomping my way through a level.

 

So, as a test, I decided to set up Mag first as a tank, then as a caster, to see if her playing style can variate the same way - and it can.  So, the main issue as it comes down to gameplay choice of caster versus assault, is mod rarity.  With Streamline, Reach, and Flow made uncommon instead of rare, a player would be more easily able to choose between playing as one or the other - and even mix and match to an extent.

[fishworshipper]

I'd say keep the energy orbs, because:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

There are much bigger problems to be dealt with.

And certain abilities (like Slash Dash) become WORTHLESS if we can't spam em.

[Beelzebubbles]

You can play as a caster type you just need a Rare mod (Flow) and a team of 4 players with Energy Siphon, you will rarely run out of Energy this way. Hell I barely shoot anything with my Banshee and it's seldom that I run out of Energy, only thing I need to shoot are heavies/ancients.

 

Yeah..rare mods.. I've been having a hell of a time trying to get Flow to drop.  What you've described is far too situational to make it a general play style unfortunately. :(

[MetalGerbil]

i like it as it is.

 

currently skills supplement your SITUATIONAL options and i think thats fine. its boring to have a nuke always on demand because its just a skill at that point. what i mean is you wouldnt use an ult like rhino stomp all the time, or whenever its off cooldown. you read the situation and react accordingly, most of the really powerful skills in this game change the flow of a fight, either by ending it completely or by buying you time.

 

in that sense having a limited resource to work with forces the player to think about how to best use their skills. both in terms of outright damage or for survival.

 

a cooldown based system would basicly either turn skills into spamfest or people would forget to use them completely if the cooldown is too long.

 

there is something very tactical and rewarding about thinking of managing energy. there is nothing of the sort when you simply match things like killing skills with entering a busy room. why bother holding on to your cooldown and thinking about it? run in and use it fast, it will be off cooldown next time you need it.

 

or have energy and think "should i use my ult now? no ill save the energy for defense. let me drop a decoy here to gun down some of the herd and have the rest be manageable. and still have energy for invis in case i need it."

 

so its either that or "lols just use everything now, its not like any skill affects any of the others. any consequence of that decision will only last as long as the cooldown for it."

 

no thanks. i like it as it is.

[ST_III]

i like it as it is.

 

currently skills supplement your SITUATIONAL options and i think thats fine. its boring to have a nuke always on demand because its just a skill at that point. what i mean is you wouldnt use an ult like rhino stomp all the time, or whenever its off cooldown. you read the situation and react accordingly, most of the really powerful skills in this game change the flow of a fight, either by ending it completely or by buying you time.

 

in that sense having a limited resource to work with forces the player to think about how to best use their skills. both in terms of outright damage or for survival.

 

a cooldown based system would basicly either turn skills into spamfest or people would forget to use them completely if the cooldown is too long.

 

there is something very tactical and rewarding about thinking of managing energy. there is nothing of the sort when you simply match things like killing skills with entering a busy room. why bother holding on to your cooldown and thinking about it? run in and use it fast, it will be off cooldown next time you need it.

 

or have energy and think "should i use my ult now? no ill save the energy for defense. let me drop a decoy here to gun down some of the herd and have the rest be manageable. and still have energy for invis in case i need it."

 

so its either that or "lols just use everything now, its not like any skill affects any of the others. any consequence of that decision will only last as long as the cooldown for it."

 

no thanks. i like it as it is.

That's the thing, people would be able to actually use their powers and enjoy them. You wouldn't have to worry about getting punished for using your powers and be able to use it more freely. And if that's such a bad thing, then they can just increase the cd until appropriate. And as for now, "managing energy" is just saving until you're about to die, then hitting the ults or abilities necessary to survive. There isn't much tactics in that. The thing with orbs is that it greatly encourages people to save their energy until absolutely necessary. Even if an ability could kill an enemy more efficiently, if you can use your gun/sword, why do it? You might need that energy later. Not to mention orb drop rates are random and random isn't reliable.

[ST_III]

I'd say keep the energy orbs, because:

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

There are much bigger problems to be dealt with.

And certain abilities (like Slash Dash) become WORTHLESS if we can't spam em.

But it is broken...

People aren't using their powers, they just save their energy which isn't fun.

If slash dash becomes worthless, then they can apply the appropriate buffs/nerfs to the mods to accommodate cd's.

[Soulfighter]

i want to see a system like path of exile, we get a power "potion" and it replenish a bit everytime we get kill stuff.

 

It's less random than energy orb, meaning you can use power regulary because you know you're going to get power for sure but you still have to progress and kill stuff to use your powers

[Shaftronics]

Dear people who support cooldowns.

Please do not assume that -Everyone- shares the issue of not using powers often. I play Frost and I use my powers with wicked abandon, knowing that it's my responsibility as a player to watch energy consumption vs energy orbs acquired. If anything, it's just you being unable to adapt to actually having to manage a limited resource and would prefer having a cooldown to lean on.

The devs have already stepped away from cooldowns and have given a reason for it.

If you would like cooldown on skills, kindly return to Mass Effect 3. Otherwise, let's do it the old-fashoned way and ADAPT.

You guys are beginning to sound like certain beta testers in Killing Floor; comparing every aspect of it with another different game like Call of Duty, isn't feedback.

[Effusion-]

One thing is was thinking of is separate bars for each ability.  They would not fill passively.  Damage or kills would refill all the bars a little.  Some skills would have larger bars.  Using a skill (like shock) would not drain the bar for another (like overload).

This is my favorite idea.  It gives the devs fine control over how often abilities can be used without slowing down the game (as with regen/cooldowns), removes the random factor of orbs, and lets you use your weaker abilities without detracting from your stronger ones (eg Nyx could be balanced around regular use of mind control and psychic bolts without letting her use chaos for every fight.  Suddenly psychic bolts is no longer worthless and chaos isn't a balance problem).  If the devs want to let players spam certain abilities then those abilities could drain only a portion of their charge bar, letting you store up multiple activations.

 

Someone proposed letting kills/damage add to your energy and I ask you this: What happens when you start to fall behind in kills/damage? You'll find that the others are able to use abilities more to deal more damage and kill more enemies to use abilities more...and you would be very hard pressed to ever keep up in a mechanic like that.

Simple, have the amount of charge gained from attacking depend on how the damage was dealt.  For example, ultimates would probably give little to no charge to prevent you from jumping into a huge crowd and filling up all your abilities by wiping everyone out.

Edited April 25, 2013 by Effusion-

[ST_III]

Dear people who support cooldowns.

Please do not assume that -Everyone- shares the issue of not using powers often. I play Frost and I use my powers with wicked abandon, knowing that it's my responsibility as a player to watch energy consumption vs energy orbs acquired. If anything, it's just you being unable to adapt to actually having to manage a limited resource and would prefer having a cooldown to lean on.

The devs have already stepped away from cooldowns and have given a reason for it.

If you would like cooldown on skills, kindly return to Mass Effect 3. Otherwise, let's do it the old-fashoned way and ADAPT.

You guys are beginning to sound like certain beta testers in Killing Floor; comparing every aspect of it with another different game like Call of Duty, isn't feedback.

Yes, you can do that. But what I'm saying is that it isn't smart to do so. The game encourages people to save their energy and never use their abilities unless absolutely necessary. Sure, you can use powers fairly frequently with the current drop system, but I don't want to have to be afraid about using every power because I may or may not be caught in a worse situation later. The devs stepped away from cd's because people hid behind corners until powers are off cd, now people just outright don't use powers. And some people may use powers often, but the vast majority don't.

And I don't call gritting my teeth through bad mechanics of a game adapting. I'm not a fan of cod myself, but when mw2 first came out, they did a lot of things right. Comparing games is just a way of helping people understand what we believe makes a good game.

[Zeddypanda]

My apologies if this has been mentioned before, but what if we had two energy bars similar to how we have two health bars?

You would have the standard energy bar as it is now, only refillable by orbs. In addition, a much smaller energy bar would be stacked on top of it. This second energy bar would refill on its own. Power-focused warframes would probably have more and faster refillable energy than, say, Excalibur, which would probably have less.

 

As an example, we could say an average warframe starts with 25 regen energy and 75 regular energy. This would let you use your 25 ability at no actual cost. Excalibur would have 10 regen energy and be able to super jump frequently.

Edited May 2, 2013 by Zeddypanda