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So You Say Limbo Is Useless...


Sitchrea
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No one said Limbo was useless.

 

What's up with these "Who said X Warframe is useless..."



That's straight up false. I did a defense alert last night as Mag and a Limbo showed up, who I asked to banish me. I then spent the rest of the match running around pulling people like an angry poltergeist and it was the most fun I've had in Warframe.

I need to try that.

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And i hardly believe that Limbo ability is "immortal". Its more like Loki and Ash invisibility.

Its true invul. As seen in the video linked in the OP enemies will still target the Limbo player while in Riftwalk.

 

And (i cannot overstate this enough) Riftwalk still lets Limbo draw aggro, and it lasts a hell of a lot longer than Invis or Smoke. And can be cancelled at any time.

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Even if you can, you still need to find that enemy (and walk/run to the enemy while hoping not to accidentally target a nearby one), in which someone would have already mowed down that small sea of enemies that contained the target enemy. 

 

Oh, and not to mention that while you are dealing with one enemy, everyone else has cleared out that room and moved on, really. I would say his abilities look good on paper, but falls just a bit short in reality. 

In your scenario, if another Tenno was already at the sea of enemies and could've mowed them down it doesn't matter if you're Limbo, Excalibur, or Volt. That Tenno is gonna take down the sea of enemies. Simply move to the next sea of enemies, banish the big targets and make it easier for the next Tenno to mop up. If no one's coming, you take them down yourself. If you accidentally banish something you don't want you unbanish and banish the target you want. Like I said, the casting time is no where near as long as it once was.

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In your scenario, if another Tenno was already at the sea of enemies and could've mowed them down it doesn't matter if you're Limbo, Excalibur, or Volt. That Tenno is gonna take down the sea of enemies. Simply move to the next sea of enemies, banish the big targets and make it easier for the next Tenno to mop up. If no one's coming, you take them down yourself. If you accidentally banish something you don't want you unbanish and banish the target you want. Like I said, the casting time is no where near as long as it once was.

That is the problem right there. 

 

The Banish thing gets tedious when you use it, even if you have Rift Walk enabled. While you can cast Rift Walk to cast Banish without taking in enemy fire, even if you walk closer and cast, stuff is going to move around. And really, having to press 1 quite a few times just to get Banished enemies unBanished does not constitute to a rather nice ability. 

 

And not to mention Limbo does feel lonely having just him and another enemy in the Rift (I mean, you do get ignored by 90% of the seeable population once you are in the Rift), so why not have a small AoE effect like Ember's Fireball, just to make it into a small party? At least that 1 button could feel a bit easier, and Banish would be a better skill for some CC. 

 

That's the difference between taking 100 bullets to kill something down to 15, and then down to 13. 

That 87% is doing nothing appreciable. 

Still 2 bullets saved. 

 

And 87% is approximately (by a loose tolerance) 100% already. So that means enemies take almost seven times as much damage compared to 600% (six times as much damage). At least those very high armour enemies will still be quaking in their feet from the sheer damage debuff applied to them. 

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The Banish thing gets tedious when you use it, even if you have Rift Walk enabled. While you can cast Rift Walk to cast Banish without taking in enemy fire, even if you walk closer and cast, stuff is going to move around. And really, having to press 1 quite a few times just to get Banished enemies unBanished does not constitute to a rather nice ability. 

I honestly don't see how you can get the wrong target banished so many times that you have to unbanish it which leads to tedium. If you're getting close to your target, how fast and sudden is your enemy really gonna move that you'll miss the entire target and hit something else?  

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I honestly don't see how you can get the wrong target banished so many times that you have to unbanish it which leads to tedium. If you're getting close to your target, how fast and sudden is your enemy really gonna move that you'll miss the entire target and hit something else?  

You move, enemies move, and other moving things are in the way as well.

 

Besides, Limbo could afford a small CC 1 ability, if that meant no damage to Banish, so that his other skills could be complimented a bit better (or at least be more versatile). 

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So, in order to get the 600% damage increase you have to basically make Banish a melee range cast ability. I notice in your video, you're the only one killing things in your 35 waves of T4 Defense. Bravo for being awesome (seriously). I just wonder how effective it would've been if you had a full group of people actually killing things before you had time to Rift Walk, get into melee range, Banish something, and melee it down before it stood up.

 

Sure, you offered your group protection of the cryo pod from ranged abilities, too. I wasn't sure it was working until I watched your video, but it must be!

 

Limbo is an awesome solo frame, no one is debating that. His position as a utility/support frame is what I think is the problem. He creates more problems for his team than he solves, unfortunately.

 

EDIT: I don't think anyone has claimed he is useless. Ineffective (or less-effective than he could/should be) in team-based play? Yes. Useless? No. You proved what we all knew - He's a great solo frame.

Edited by GideonG
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So, in order to get the 600% damage increase you have to basically make Banish a melee range cast ability. I notice in your video, you're the only one killing things in your 35 waves of T4 Defense. Bravo for being awesome (seriously). I just wonder how effective it would've been if you had a full group of people actually killing things before you had time to Rift Walk, get into melee range, Banish something, and melee it down before it stood up.

 

Sure, you offered your group protection of the cryo pod from ranged abilities, too. I wasn't sure it was working until I watched your video, but it must be!

 

Limbo is an awesome solo frame, no one is debating that. His position as a utility/support frame is what I think is the problem. He creates more problems for his team than he solves, unfortunately.

 

EDIT: I don't think anyone has claimed he is useless. Ineffective (or less-effective than he could/should be) in team-based play? Yes. Useless? No. You proved what we all knew - He's a great solo frame.

This exactly. This sums up everything.

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You move, enemies move, and other moving things are in the way as well.

Depending on positioning and how your aiming at the enemy, that could be something that you can overcome easily.

 

And I would rather have Rift Surge become a passive when entering the Rift so he has room for his 3 to be the CC ability.

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And I would rather have Rift Surge become a passive when entering the Rift so he has room for his 3 to be the CC ability.

The Rift already gives out quite a lot of nice buffs to players (energy regeneration, sprint speed increase, ghost mode [almost] etc.). And really, Rift Surge is just 50 Energy.

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And 87% is approximately (by a loose tolerance) 100% already. So that means enemies take almost seven times as much damage compared to 600% (six times as much damage). At least those very high armour enemies will still be quaking in their feet from the sheer damage debuff applied to them. 

Those 100 bullets are considering a single target. Split amongst individual enemies you're only hitting effective savings if you're lucky with breakpoints. Technically 100% is 2x, so it'd be the difference between 7 and 8x damage. Or about 14% more for 20ish% more energy consumed on every ability, not something I'd want on a frame who guzzles energy like a Hummer.   

Sure you can have 687%, but it's largely unrealistic, no one would actually use that.

I'd say 471% or 555% with the new transient fortitude would be more realistic extremes.

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The Rift already gives out quite a lot of nice buffs to players (energy regeneration, sprint speed increase, ghost mode [almost] etc.). And really, Rift Surge is just 50 Energy.

It doesn't bother you that a simple damage increase ability could've just been another passive in Rift mode while something more creative and meaningful like a CC ability could have been in that slot?

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And you dont see any value in making a fragile CC frame effectively invulnerable?

 

He's not a CC frame. He can isolate single targets out of seas of enemies while protecting the cryopod from ranged attacks. Also, while "effectively invulnerable" he becomes "largely useless" against that sea of enemies, while his allies do not.

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It doesn't bother you that a simple damage increase ability could've just been another passive in Rift mode while something more creative and meaningful like a CC ability could have been in that slot?

Not at 300% base damage increase I don't. You know if it was a passive Rift feature it would be like 50% and unscalable.

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Sure you can have 687%, but it's largely unrealistic, no one would actually use that.

I'd say 471% or 555% with the new transient fortitude would be more realistic extremes.

Then again, the -55% Power Efficiency can be softened quite nicely with a Streamline. And given that how Limbo can regenerate energy in the Rift Plane (and with Energy Siphon helping him out), I would say 687% is still a viable choice. 

 

It doesn't bother you that a simple damage increase ability could've just been another passive in Rift mode while something more creative and meaningful like a CC ability could have been in that slot?

I see Rift Plane as a support, not for specialised offence or defence, as the buffs really just support the Warframes in the Rift Plane (alright, besides not having to take damage for around a minute or so). 

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He's not a CC frame. He can isolate single targets out of seas of enemies while protecting the cryopod from ranged attacks. Also, while "effectively invulnerable" he becomes "largely useless" against that sea of enemies, while his allies do not.

You missed my point. By miles.

 

I meant making other players invulnerable.

 

A Banshee that doesnt need to Soundquake from behind cover? Lokis that dont need to RD while invisible? Vaubans that could walk up to a crowd and place Teslas on every single mob (might be good when we get that aug).

 

And that says nothing for what a Volt can get up to with Electric Shields.

 

Do you ever think about teamwork anymore?

Edited by Dualstar
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Not at 300% base damage increase I don't. You know if it was a passive Rift feature it would be like 50% and unscalable.

 

I see Rift Plane as a support, not for specialised offence or defence, as the buffs really just support the Warframes in the Rift Plane (alright, besides not having to take damage for around a minute or so). 

I guess I'll have to agree to disagree then. I don't know about you guys, but Rift Surge, as great as the damage is, is waste of potential to me and could've had potential for something more. It just feels like a wasted opportunity.

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You missed my point. By miles.

 

I meant making other players invulnerable.

 

A Banshee that doesnt need to Soundquake from behind cover? Lokis that dont need to RD while invisible? Vaubans that could walk up to a crowd and place Teslas on every single mob (might be good when we get that aug).

 

Do you ever think about teamwork anymore?

 

Yes, I do actually. I've thought about that scenario, and while it does sound fun, it completely limits him to being a Teamspeak Frame and also require a very specific team make up (to be effective). It also assumes that the fact that Warframe abilities can effect enemies outside the rift is not a bug. I would assume it is.

Edited by GideonG
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Yes, I do actually. I've thought about that scenario, and while it does sound fun, it completely limits him to being a Teamspeak Frame and also require a very specific team make up (to be effective). It also assumes that the fact that Warframe abilities can effect enemies outside the rift is not a bug. I would assume it is.

I honestly don't think the power thing is a bug. The fact that the Rift regenerates energy passively and can be accessed by use of energy gives it a solid lore link to energy. It's not a huge stretch to assume abilities brought about by energy would have some sort of relationship with the Rift, such as existing in both it and the material realm.

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