Saryn Patch?

[MechaKnight]

I got word of a patch and rumor that Miasma has been altered. I decided to run some tests.

 

Tested on Tyl Regor on Uranus.

 

Tests done with no power strength mods.

 

Normal duration (1.0 modifier): 5 ticks for 183 damage each = 915 total damage

 

Short duration (0.4 modifier): 2 ticks for 456 damage each = 913 total damage

 

Longer duration with Continuity + Constitution (1.58 modifier): 7 ticks for 115 damage each = 805 total damage

 

Tests done with Transient Fortitude

 

Including Fleeting Expertise (0.125 modifier): 1 tick for just under 2000 damage = ~2000 total damage

 

Including Continuity and Constitution (1.305 modifier):  7 ticks for 237 damage = 1659 total damage

 

 

Variations are mild and are probably from the damage reduction from the armor on the enemy I was testing on.

 

 

Many players will be upset with this potential change since it is a removal of one of the more effective ways to play Saryn. I however am okay with the change since this play style endangered Saryn to become the only single-ability warframe after an ability system overhaul that allows players to carry all four abilities.

 

However, some other aspects about Saryn gameplay need to be addressed.

 

Many players have mentioned in the past that Venom can be difficult to spread. It also suffers from visual bugs which make spores invisible, making at times difficult to spread for the player, as well as not making the ability apparent to teammates.

 

Contagion for 50 energy is also lackluster when compared to Volt's Speed (attack speed + movement) and Loki's Invisibility (stealth multiplier + cloak) when it comes to melee enhancing abilities. It would be nice if Contagion became more fun somehow.

 

As of now, I think Molt and Miasma are fine, but I wouldn't refuse any ability augment mods for these abilities either. In general, there are problems with Venom and Contagion, and they can either be outright fixed, or at least have an ability augment card to help their performance.

 

Warframe is an ever changing game, and changes like these are expected. I simply see room for a bit more improvement with this 'frame.

 

Short story/TL;DR: Miasma may have gotten stealth changed, and it will be seen by many players as a nerf. Let's talk in an orderly, polite manner about it.

 

Summary: After testing, there could have been a change. Duration has a difference, but it's usually so small as to be negligible for practical purposes.

Edited October 31, 2014 by MechaKnight

[StinkyPygmy]

Wait, what has been patched exactly?

I think venom is fine as it is with the exception of the few tweaks you mentioned and making the spores easier to pop with most weapons. Unless you have a shotgun or a braton/soma they can be a pain when it comes to hit detection.

Edited October 31, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[MechaKnight]

Wait, what has been patched exactly?

I think venom is fine as it is with the exception of the few tweaks you mentioned and making the spores easier to pop with most weapons. Unless you have a shotgun or a braton/soma they can be a pain when it comes to hit detection.

Oh, sorry. The opening post didn't mention the ability. It's a change to Miasma and its odd calculations--they're more standard now.

[-10no-GCoda]

Wait, what has been patched exactly?

I think venom is fine as it is with the exception of the few tweaks you mentioned and making the spores easier to pop with most weapons. Unless you have a shotgun or a braton/soma they can be a pain when it comes to hit detection.

I believe, previously if you got not even amount of time you will get one extra tick of damage.

 

.

[StinkyPygmy]

Ahhh right. I figured it was miasma but the change wasn't clear.

Eh, no biggy. Can still clear rooms with it if needed.

Never really spammed miasma anyway.

Edited October 31, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[MechaKnight]

Ahhh right. I figured it was miasma but the change wasn't clear.

Eh, no biggy. Can still clear rooms with it if needed.

Never really spammed miasma anyway.

Yes. Honestly that play tactic did ruin the ideal vision of a supporter she was meant to be. There's just room for improvement is all.

[Ninjamander]

I hope this is a unintentional bug..because im getting sick of all stealth nerf...

[xNegikunx]

How was it before?

[MechaKnight]

I hope this is a unintentional bug..because im getting sick of all stealth nerf...

Well, yes. It can be seen as a gameplay nerf. There's still room for improvement in a couple of Saryn abilities. It would be fine with beneficial tweaks, or an augment card.

[CephalonShy]

Gee, one of the worst frames with zero ability synergy gets nerfed. Cute. 98% of players already use rhino prime all of the time, especially its the only frame worth using in archwing missions. 

[taiiat]

if -Duration doesn't increase Damage anymore, GOOD.

 

that math made no sense whatsoever.

 

 

Miasma is still just a bland AoE Blast and really should be more than that.

[ZxpferTH]

i dont notice any of this 

 

maybe because my saryn does has -92% reducetion so no tick dmg for me 

 

still does 10k dmg to ancient infected just TF + intensify and -92% duration

 

will try combine with blind rage again later

[MechaKnight]

if -Duration doesn't increase Damage anymore, GOOD.

 

that math made no sense whatsoever.

 

 

Miasma is still just a bland AoE Blast and really should be more than that.

Agreed. Some slowdown, or some defensive debuffing. Maybe something zany and new like a -97% accuracy debuff on enemies.

 

Either way, disease and toxin oriented debuffer archetypes thrive on bogging down enemies. Saryn needs an element of that to solidify her identity.

[MechaKnight]

i dont notice any of this 

 

maybe because my saryn does has -92% reducetion so no tick dmg for me 

 

still does 10k dmg to ancient infected just TF + intensify and -92% duration

 

will try combine with blind rage again later

Oh yes. It's difficult testing with the power mods involved but I did also run a test using a rank 5 Blind Rage and a rank 10 Transient Fortitude. The damages are similar enough.

 

In short, players wouldn't really want to play Saryn like that anymore. You may as well play Oberon, Ash, Excalibur, or other 'frames with a sudden damage radial as their #4.

[ZxpferTH]

Before the hotfix my saryn TF10 + Intensify has around 5.6k dmg on charger / bomber and 10k on ancient

 

now after hotfix TF10 + Intensify + BR 10

 

 

it pretty normal to me

[MechaKnight]

Before the hotfix my saryn TF10 + Intensify has around 5.6k dmg on charger / bomber and 10k on ancient

 

now after hotfix TF10 + Intensify + BR 10

it pretty normal to me

The third power strength mod is another variable in the comparison. Stick to something much smaller, like duration changes with similar power strength between tests.

[StinkyPygmy]

Gee, one of the worst frames with zero ability synergy gets nerfed. Cute. 98% of players already use rhino prime all of the time, especially its the only frame worth using in archwing missions. 

Lol what nerf?

It makes essentially no difference.

As far as a lack of ability synergy she has plenty. Could do with a bit of love but molt and venom are extremely useful especially in combination. 

 

98% of players would still be playing Rhino prime regardless of the change. Its really neither here nor there.

Banshee does fine in archwing. Hek most frames do. I've seen more rhino primes go down then any other frame in archwing so far. Maybe you could put that down to the fact its almost the only frame people play, but still. 

Edited October 31, 2014 by StinkyPygmy

[MechaKnight]

I ran another test. Again, no power mods, just duration changes.

 

Longer duration with Continuity + Constitution (1.58 modifier): 7 ticks, 115 damage each = 805 total damage

 

The lower total damage is probably from the enemy's damage reduction from armor. Else, it's still mostly the same.

[Ninjamander]

try against level 50 enemy, she seem normal to me

[MechaKnight]

try against level 50 enemy, she seem normal to me

Standardize the test build please. Which enemy? What level? Were you by yourself? Did you shoot it once, and if so, what status did the shot inflict before you used Miasma?

 

Using those tests on Regor was an easy way to get a standardized test environment where I can test the rumors surrounding the Miasma patch. So far, current tests show it to be true. More tests need to be done just to check.

 

Edit: Confirmed. There is definitely a diminishing return on Miasma now. When running rank 10 Transient Fortitude along side Fleeting Expertise in one test (0.125 modifier), and alongside Continuity + Constitution in another test (1.305), the difference is minimal. With minimal duration, there is only one tick of damage. With two duration mods, there are what looks like 7 ticks. I counted multiple times, the damage difference is quite small, and is probably from the enemy's damage reduction from armor reducing each tick of damage.

 

In short, Miasma will now deal the same damage total regardless of duration, but enemies with armor will make more ticks distributed over time feel weaker. Perhaps as compensation, each tick of damage should introduce a slow debuff for only 1.5 seconds, which is refreshed per tick of damage. There is a difference in the totals, but it's small.

Edited October 31, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Noble_Cactus]

Agreed. Some slowdown, or some defensive debuffing. Maybe something zany and new like a -97% accuracy debuff on enemies.

 

Either way, disease and toxin oriented debuffer archetypes thrive on bogging down enemies. Saryn needs an element of that to solidify her identity.

 

I think something even more drastic is needed. Even if it slowed enemies or procced some other debuff, Miasma would still be a bland ability. It's an AoE nuke that ignores cover. No thought necessary to use it; just get in range of a group of mobs and press 4. Yawn. It's one of the reasons I don't play Saryn nearly as much as my other frames.

 

I'm thinking something like Saryn spawning an acid cloud - a true miasma - that spreads outward and acts as an area denial tool. Enemies who come into contact with it are stunned for a few moments while they are afflicted with a DoT that stays active for as long as the enemies stand in the cloud, and lingers for a few ticks after they exit it. Maybe she'd get armor bonuses or health bonuses or health regen while standing in it. That way, Miasma would allow her to manipulate and control the battlefield to her will, but it also wouldn't be spammable since the cloud has to grow.

 

In any case, it should have a high chance to proc Corrosive.

Edited October 31, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[MechaKnight]

I think something even more drastic is needed. Even if it slowed enemies or procced some other debuff, Miasma would still be a bland ability. It's an AoE nuke that ignores cover. No thought necessary to use it; just get in range of a group of mobs and press 4. Yawn. It's one of the reasons I don't play Saryn nearly as much as my other frames.

 

I'm thinking something like Saryn spawning an acid cloud - a true miasma - that spreads outward and acts as an area denial tool. Maybe she'd get armor bonuses or health bonuses or health regen while standing in it. That way, Miasma would allow her to manipulate and control the battlefield to her will, but it also wouldn't be spammable since the cloud has to grow.

 

In any case, it should have a high chance to proc Corrosive.

I'll give you a +1 for creativity. I had the same idea.

 

In my own Saryn thread this was one of the reworks I planned around a lot. There are considerations for how short the range of Miasma already is. The total extended range of the cloud would have to be considerably larger, or else Miasma would be the size of Fire Blast (averaged over time) for most of the duration of the ability and suffer similar problems associated with it. Limbo's Cataclysm has done well to avoid this pitfall by starting at the maximum range, then shrinking down. If it started small then grew and vanished just when it hit its full range, players would not like it.

 

As for positive buffs on Saryn and others standing in it, the thread also considered that. Cloak mechanisms, stealth modifiers, supportive effects, and corrosive procs were all fair game.

 

I tried many iterations for a Miasma rework, but I just worried it would emulate Molecular Prime, yet still fall short. The range, the duration, debuff, and explosion effect of Molecular prime is something to contend with. A spreading Miasma cloud is better suited to Saryn for her theme, but it may feel inferior to Molecular Prime. I even considered making Miasma run on a cooldown timer like Rhino Stomp did, but realized how difficult it is to come up with suitable advantages for an non-spammable, short-range, slowly spreading ability that would allow it to be effective without suffering too much from the oversight of how defenseless the player would be as well as the tendency of enemies to walk around and avoid effects like Fire Blast and Undertow as they are already. Perhaps a placed arena hazard isn't the way to go with this form of Miasma, but a portable hazard like Banshee's Silence. However, this would radically change the way Miasma works as it is. Yet I'd love to see something so fun.

 

I'm no professional, DE has made very creative implementations in their latest Limbo warframe and their creativity shows. As for Saryn, I don't know as of yet how we could tailor Miasma to her theme without being bland or inefficient.

Edited October 31, 2014 by MechaKnight

[Ninjamander]

try against level 50 enemy, she seem normal to me

 

nvm...she got stealth nerf...just freaking why...

[PsycloneM]

I just finished testing with Infested, and I can't say I'm observing any changes with Miasma's mechanics.

 

 

No duration mods:

375 damage per tick, 5 total ticks

 

+30% duration:

288 damage per tick, 6 total ticks + 1 reduced damage tick

 

-60% duration:

937 damage per tick, 2 total ticks + 1 reduced damage tick

 

 

Are you observing this new behavior with just Tyl Regor?

[MechaKnight]

I just finished testing with Infested, and I can't say I'm observing any changes with Miasma's mechanics.

 

 

No duration mods:

375 damage per tick, 5 total ticks

 

+30% duration:

288 damage per tick, 6 total ticks + 1 reduced damage tick

 

-60% duration:

937 damage per tick, 2 total ticks + 1 reduced damage tick

 

 

Are you observing this new behavior with just Tyl Regor?

Perhaps. I can try to test more. Perhaps I'm not seeing the reduced damage ticks through his regenerating shields.

 

So, maybe I can try another enemy. Maybe Nef Anyo or Kela De Thaym.

 

Edit: I'm back from some runs with Kela De Thaym.

 

-60% duration: 2 ticks for 937 damage each = 1874

 

+30% duration: 6 ticks for 288 damage each = 1728

 

There is a possibility of a reduced damage tick, I'm not sure what to look for.

Edited October 31, 2014 by MechaKnight