Is It Just Me, Or Has Directional Melee Made Excalibur's Super Jump Completely Redundant?

[Octoknightx]

I think Valkyr's Ripline of how to make an ability useful and fun. The mobility it awesome and the utility of pulling enemies and allies is great!

[Cidolfus]

Now I'm genuinely curious if you're the one not reading.

 

I did address your points.  In fact, this entire thread is about addressing your points.  Everyone has been doing it.  You just seem hellbent on reciting the same argument while ignoring everyone elses points, then calling them stupid and leaving. (But never actually leaving)  I think maybe one of the core misconceptions you're having is that you believe your way of having fun is the only way to have fun, when there are quite a few people who see things differently.  

 

The entire point from the beginning, right there in the topic title, is that the ability is now redundant.  Redundant abilities are not fun.  Maybe you've found some extremely niche scenarios where it was useful, but nearly every point you've tried to make to claim that it isn't has been shut down.  And they HAVE been shut down, I'm not sure how you missed that.  Almost every example you gave is something that directional melee just does on its own.  Super Jump contributes next to nothing.  This has been pointed out multiple times.

 

It is entirely possible to make a fun and useful ability that serves a unique purpose.  I don't think it's selfish to ask for that.  Plus, by not giving him an ability that's already baked into the game mechanics, you open up way more options for how you play the game and approach different scenarios.  That sounds way more fun to me.

 

Also, no need to get so angry, calm down.  People aren't "dumb" because they enjoy (or don't enjoy) something different from you.

 

Dude you're not getting what he/she/it was trying to say but if they gave up on explaining it then I ain't gonna try either. I'll just say that I was reading this thread and all this arguing is stupid. Super Jump's good for some things D.Melee is good for other things and mixing em together is a matter of playstyle.

 

Echelon was trying to explain that but was too heavy handed. I see posts like his/hers all the time where they use alot of words that get nowhere because people don't take the time to read it all. That's why I don't talk at all on the forums or my posts are really small.

[And_Now_I_Dance]

Dude you're not getting what he/she/it was trying to say but if they gave up on explaining it then I ain't gonna try either. I'll just say that I was reading this thread and all this arguing is stupid. Super Jump's good for some things D.Melee is good for other things and mixing em together is a matter of playstyle.

 

Echelon was trying to explain that but was too heavy handed. I see posts like his/hers all the time where they use alot of words that get nowhere because people don't take the time to read it all. That's why I don't talk at all on the forums or my posts are really small.

 

You're the second person to say that, so I'll concede that may be the case.  It's not for lack of trying, I've read through the thread several times trying to understand where the "Super Jump is fine" crowd is coming from.

 

Granted, if I have missed his point, I feel like myself and many others have made some strong points for why Super Jump is no good and why we don't like it, which he has completely failed to address.  We can't come to an understanding if neither side is willing to acknowledge the other.

 

In any case, the whole thread has just become a big joke now, so w/e.

[Azawarau]

You CAN use any other warframe other than Rhino and Nova...but why would you?

 

You CAN use any other weapon other than Soma...but why would you?

 

You CAN play this game however the way you want to play...but why would you?

 

Because it's fun. because it's a unique experience. Because finding creative ways of playing the game is one of the reasons why DE implemented so many different situations with many different and alternative solutions. You think it's redundant? Fine, don't do it. I don't think having a new mobility combo is redundant. Thus I WILL do it, and I WILL enjoy it. That's my prerogative just as you believing it's redundant is your prerogative.

 

Also, of course you've "accomplished" those tasks without needing super jump. If super jump was "needed" for such tasks, none of the other warframes would be able to do them. Hence why it's optional. It's an addition. And comboing it into directional melee is also optional. Also an addition. And to some of us, it's a fun one that provides a different experience.

This isnt about personal preference or hat you want to play or what you  find nice or whatever

 

Its about you claiming that super jump beats directional melee for mobility and getting to high places when it just doesnt

 

For combat super jump is amazingly helpful

 

But for getting places if falls second to air melee

 

 

Yeah I think I'm done. I can't really dumb down the point any dumber.

Youre just being rude now

 

You don't understand him. He doesn't always want to play like an efficient robot and instead occacionally want to have fun.

 

There are people who don't only have fun with the most powerfull weapons and frames. Super Jump is one of those abilities that does nothing for ultra efficiency, but instead is fun to use for some people.

 

There is no right or wrong in that, it just depends on the premise.

Thats fine

 

But if hes going to say that super jump is better at something he better be willing to prove it and he better be able to handle the pressure that comes with not being able to put up

 

Now the issue here isnt that he plays what he likes

 

Its that he claims something is better than something else

 

Super jump alone and super jump with directional melee at the end wont ever be more useful than simple directional melee

 

If you still like it and use it then fine

 

lol this is hilarious.

Feels almost like tumblr

[shut]

I gave examples. If you had read any further than my first sentence you would've seen that. But sure, I'll bite:

 

...

 

Whenever you'd normally use Valkyr's zipline or Zephyr's tailwind.

 

This is really the punchline of the entire discussion here.

 

Repeating myself for the umpteenth time: Combining Super Jump and Air Slashes together, you can easily reach heights that neither of the two could hope to accomplish on their own. By saying "omg theres no situation where you would actually need to do this because air slash is good enough", you are saying that Air Slashes make abilities like Ripline and Tailwind completely redundant as well (which we all know is clearly not the case).

Are there times that an Air Slash can do the same job as one of these mobility skills? Of course.

Are there numerous things that you can do with these mobility skills that you can't do with a single Air Slash? Yes.

 

The same goes with the SJ+AS combo. While not as insanely powerful as Ripline or Tailwind, it is exactly the same in the way that there are numerous things that it can do that AS alone cannot. Saying "but this happens so rarely that its negligible" is the same as saying that Ripline and Tailwind are negligible as well.

 

EDIT:

@Azawarau

I think you're under the impression that we're comparing Super Jump with Air Slashes here. We aren't. Not once did we say that one was better than the other, and even if we agree with you that AS is superior to SJ in every single way imaginable, that would still have no impact on the point we're trying to make.

The point being: you can combine the two for an essentially doubled effect.

As I have been saying since the top of page 2, there is no "comparing Super Jump to Air Slashes". We're comparing the SJ+AS Combo with Air Slashes.

Edited November 3, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Azawarau]

This is really the punchline of the entire discussion here.

 

Repeating myself for the umpteenth time: Combining Super Jump and Air Slashes together, you can easily reach heights that neither of the two could hope to accomplish on their own. By saying "omg theres no situation where you would actually need to do this because air slash is good enough", you are saying that Air Slashes make abilities like Ripline and Tailwind completely redundant as well (which we all know is clearly not the case).

Are there times that an Air Slash can do the same job as one of these mobility skills? Of course.

Are there numerous things that you can do with these mobility skills that you can't do with a single Air Slash? Yes.

 

The same goes with the SJ+AS combo. While not as insanely powerful as Ripline or Tailwind, it is exactly the same in the way that there are numerous things that it can do that AS alone cannot. Saying "but this happens so rarely that its negligible" is the same as saying that Ripline and Tailwind are negligible as well.

 

EDIT:

@Azawarau

I think you're under the impression that we're comparing Super Jump with Air Slashes here. We aren't. Not once did we say that one was better than the other, and even if we agree with you that AS is superior to SJ in every single way imaginable, that would still have no impact on the point we're trying to make.

The point being: you can combine the two for an essentially doubled effect.

As I have been saying since the top of page 2, there is no "comparing Super Jump to Air Slashes". We're comparing the SJ+AS Combo with Air Slashes.

Where did i say it was better than SJ in every way possible?

 

Whos under impressions here?

 

How many situations will you ever need to combine the two for mobility alone?

 

I mentioned SJ+ air attacks VS air attacks alone in my last post

 

 

Super jump alone and super jump with directional melee at the end wont ever be more useful than simple directional melee

[shut]

Where did i say it was better than SJ in every way possible?

 

Whos under impressions here?

 

Oh boy, where do I begin.

 

(video displaying Super Jump versus Air Slash)

Now unless you have something to show for super jump having regular use as far as mobility is concerned VS air attacks id suggest you sit down and kindly replace your pacifier in your mouth

 

Aside from the secret room that you might not even be able to super jump into theres no practical place super jump gets to that air attacks cant

 

I know how to use super jump and i know that it cant get you to as many places as quickly and as practically as simple directional melee

 

Its obsolete for anything but preference

 

And again unless youre willing to actually prove me wrong where ive shown even a video of comparison (with max power strength which is something thats not the brightest idea on excalibur) youre not gaining any ground

 

Ive been saying this whole time that by comparison its pointless next to melee

 

If you like it then that your thing but unless your SJ can outdo my melee striking you really wont be proving anything

 

Its about you claiming that super jump beats directional melee for mobility and getting to high places when it just doesnt

 

For combat super jump is amazingly helpful

 

But for getting places if falls second to air melee

 

 

I was exaggerating a bit with the "in every way" part, but my point is that you keep on bringing up "Super Jump vs Air Slashes!", over and over again, despite that not even being part of the discussion.

 

 

How many situations will you ever need to combine the two for mobility alone?

Again, you didn't read what you quoted. The answer to that question is "the exact same situations in which you would use Ripline or Tailwind".

Unless you're suggesting that those two are useless as well?

 

 

I mentioned SJ+ air attacks VS air attacks alone in my last post

My bad.

It seems you're aware of our point, at least. But I must stress again: we are not comparing SJ by itself to AS by itself. It would be great if you stopped bringing it up, because our point of "SJ+AS Combo is awesome!" that I've been repeating since page 2 is entirely unrelated.

Edited November 3, 2014 by SortaRandom

[And_Now_I_Dance]

This is really the punchline of the entire discussion here.

 

Repeating myself for the umpteenth time: Combining Super Jump and Air Slashes together, you can easily reach heights that neither of the two could hope to accomplish on their own. By saying "omg theres no situation where you would actually need to do this because air slash is good enough", you are saying that Air Slashes make abilities like Ripline and Tailwind completely redundant as well (which we all know is clearly not the case).

Are there times that an Air Slash can do the same job as one of these mobility skills? Of course.

Are there numerous things that you can do with these mobility skills that you can't do with a single Air Slash? Yes.

 

The same goes with the SJ+AS combo. While not as insanely powerful as Ripline or Tailwind, it is exactly the same in the way that there are numerous things that it can do that AS alone cannot. Saying "but this happens so rarely that its negligible" is the same as saying that Ripline and Tailwind are negligible as well.

 

EDIT:

@Azawarau

I think you're under the impression that we're comparing Super Jump with Air Slashes here. We aren't. Not once did we say that one was better than the other, and even if we agree with you that AS is superior to SJ in every single way imaginable, that would still have no impact on the point we're trying to make.

The point being: you can combine the two for an essentially doubled effect.

As I have been saying since the top of page 2, there is no "comparing Super Jump to Air Slashes". We're comparing the SJ+AS Combo with Air Slashes.

 

The problem I'm having is, do you really think Super Jump is comparable to Rip Line and Tail Wind?  It seems like Super Jump is so much weaker both in terms of mobility and combat utility.  Super Jump can still be negligible and those two fine because they provide so much more than Super Jump does.

[Azawarau]

Oh boy, where do I begin.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was exaggerating a bit with the "in every way" part, but my point is that you keep on bringing up "Super Jump vs Air Slashes!", over and over again, despite that not even being part of the discussion.

 

 

Again, you didn't read what you quoted. The answer to that question is "the exact same situations in which you would use Ripline or Tailwind".

Unless you're suggesting that those two are useless as well?

 

 

 

My bad.

It seems you're aware of our point, at least. But I must stress again: we are not comparing SJ by itself to AS by itself. It would be great if you stopped bringing it up, because our point of "SJ+AS Combo is awesome!" that I've been repeating since page 2 is entirely unrelated.

Ripline is slower and costs energy (usually alot with valkyrs who use warcry)

 

Tailwind is over the top in most situations

 

Only particularly helpful outdoors and can be rivaled or beaten by coptering

 

 

 

Though thats more situational there arent many times at all youd need to literally clear a map in one jump

[shut]

The problem I'm having is, do you really think Super Jump + Air Slash Combo is comparable to Rip Line and Tail Wind?  It seems like Super Jump + Air Slash Combo is so much weaker both in terms of mobility and combat utility.  Super Jump + Air Slash Combo can still be negligible and those two fine because they provide so much more than Super Jump + Air Slash Combo does.

 

Edited your post to clarify what I'm talking about here.

Obviously Super Jump + Air Slash Combo can't exactly reach to the same extent as Ripline or Tailwind, but the fact remains that, like RL and TW, it can do numerous things that Air Slashes alone cannot. I take advantage of this all the time in gameplay, and, unless there's a spidermanning Valkyr / flying Zephyr / wormholing Nova in my squad, I can get to a wide variety of far-off places before the rest of my squad does (which is pretty significant when it comes to reviving faraway teammates and then returning to my post in Defense/Interception missions and the like).

 

 

-snip1-

 

-snip2-

 

It's probably worth noting that the vast majority of non-Valkyr players don't have builds resulting in slide attacks that cause you to effectively teleport across maps.

 

Since this absolutely-horrifyingly-fast coptering generally isn't the case for a good number of players, I'm still not convinced that coptering can overtake skills like Ripline or Tailwind in a general sense, especially when you consider that coptering hardly even functions in the third dimension (and, of course, considering that you can also combine these abilities with Coptering as well for insane effects). I can see plenty of situations in which I'd use an energy-requiring mobility skill instead of simply Coptering or Air-Slashing, especially with an "average" coptering weapon like Dakra Prime or Bo Prime, but if you can't, then I guess this is where the whole "preference" thing comes in.

If you don't see any uses for these abilities, then no problem, nobody blames you. Just don't assume this to be true for other players, and for the love of Lotus, don't assume that other players are "wrong" if they prefer using these mobility skills that you consider to be redundant.

Edited November 3, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Azawarau]

Edited your post to clarify what I'm talking about here.

Obviously Super Jump + Air Slash Combo can't exactly reach to the same extent as Ripline or Tailwind, but the fact remains that, like RL and TW, it can do numerous things that Air Slashes alone cannot. I take advantage of this all the time in gameplay, and, unless there's a spidermanning Valkyr / flying Zephyr / wormholing Nova in my squad, I can get to a wide variety of far-off places before the rest of my squad does (which is pretty significant when it comes to reviving faraway teammates and then returning to my post in Defense/Interception missions and the like).

Ripline is slow for travel

 

Worm hole costs too much energy to sustain on the most common nova builds

 

Tailwind might be tough to beat but tight spaces make you stuck on walls for more than needed and again costs energy VS free

 

Also less controillable than coptering and air meleee

[And_Now_I_Dance]

My apologies, I don't know how to quote specific sections of a post.  This is in reference to SortaRandom's reply.

 

Oh, can directional melee not be used at all with Tail Wind and Rip Line?  If not, that sort of puts a new spin on things.

[shut]

My apologies, I don't know how to quote specific sections of a post.  This is in reference to SortaRandom's reply.

 

Oh, can directional melee not be used at all with Tail Wind and Rip Line?  If not, that sort of puts a new spin on things.

 

I think there's been a misunderstanding. XD

What I meant to say is that if we consider "Super Jump + Air Slash Combo" as its own maneuver (since Super Jump alone really isn't all that great, as we're all aware), the combo is still far more effective than using Air Slash alone. It's not as good as Tail Wind or Ripline, of course, but it's still definitely useful in loads of situations.

You can add an Air Slash on top of RL and TW if you want to, of course, but it might be easier to simply cast the Ability again for the sake of not having to switch launching mechanisms on the fly (assuming they're running an Efficiency build) since those abilities can be re-cast in midair. But doing an Air Slash instead is always an option. XD

 

As for the multi-quote thing, you can just hit "quote", copy-paste the quote box that appears several times, and delete the parts that you don't want to quote for each box. 

e.g. 

This is in reference to

SortaRandom's reply.

Edited November 3, 2014 by SortaRandom

[DSpite]

Youre using subjectivity and broad examples for your argument and acting like im the one doing the same

 

Ill give you an example then

 

 

This is with max blind rage,fleeting, and intensify and its not much higher and not limiting your movement afterwards

 

And this is being forgiving considering aerial attacks can go diagonally and arent nearly as limited in use (ceilings will get in your way)

 

Now unless you have something to show for super jump having regular use as far as mobility is concerned VS air attacks id suggest you sit down and kindly replace your pacifier in your mouth

 

If we could double jump for no additional cost, it would really start to become useful. Since playing the earth map looking for caches I've been wishing for just that based on how ANNOYING it is when you just barely miss a jump to get to places.

[Azawarau]

If we could double jump for no additional cost, it would really start to become useful. Since playing the earth map looking for caches I've been wishing for just that based on how ANNOYING it is when you just barely miss a jump to get to places.

What jumps are you missing...?

[SIDESTRE4M]

This SJ+directional melee "double jump" is certainly usefull somewhere.

 

The point is, how niche is an abillity allowed to be? As I played yesterday, I tried to focus on directional melee where I would have used SJ otherwise.

 

Cool thing is, I can now play Mirage or Volt like Excal :D

 

This leads to another question:

Is the combination of SJ and melee plus the little utility enough to justify it?

Wouldn't another ability with more focus and thus more impact more appealing now?

 

I was a strict maintainer for super jump, but the recent inclusion of directional melee has changed my mind.

[MichaelSD]

I preferred Excalibur's other abilities over Super Jump. I still believe that Super Jump's utility is still very situational.

[DeadlyBard676]

i seriously doubt DE would remove Super Jump from excalibur. they did it with ember before she was out for too long(Overheat with Accelerant). Excalibur is just to old to have any of his abilities changes. DE will probally still make more tweaks to his move set as they go along to prevent them from becoming obselete.

[SIDESTRE4M]

If the tweaks make him more worthwile to use, then it's ok in my book.

[MichaelSD]

Based on this weeks, I am not sure i am looking forward to them, but let's hope that there will be a tweak and not like the last one.

[BrazilianJoe]

It should be possible to cast a super jump while in the air *once*, if the first jump was not already a super jump. 

 

AKA double jump.

[Azawarau]

It should be possible to cast a super jump while in the air *once*, if the first jump was not already a super jump. 

 

AKA double jump.

That would be cool but still not particularly helpful in most situations

[Kratos]

Super Jump has gotten me where no mere jump or Directional Melee has before. Don't knock it until you've tried Power Strength on it.

[HollowExistence]

Super jump is not utility. Its not useful. Is only a fun joke skill barely good for map movement, and even that is situational.

Imo it should be replaced

[MichaelSD]

Super jump is not utility. Its not useful. Is only a fun joke skill barely good for map movement, and even that is situational.

Imo it should be replaced

 

I agree.