Who Is In Charge Of Balance?

[DiabolusUrsus]

I'm seriously interested. How many people is Scott working with? Is it just him? Why do simple changes take so long?

Now that you've given us the Next Greatest Thing (Archwing/Syndicates) I think it would be nice to see the Mastery System get sorted out. It's supposed to be a progression marker and distinguish between weapon tiers, right?

The Dragon Nikana at MR8 is exactly twice as powerful as the Nikana at MR4. So does that mean that as we approach MR30 We'll be seeing weapons that are three times as powerful? 

 

What I'm getting at here is that Warframe is infamous for its "2.0s" Mods 2.0. Damage 2.0. Melee 2.0. We go for months waiting for necessary yet simple changes that turn into overhauls. The recent changes to launcher weapon ammo efficiency took the better part of a year to implement, when simply changing the number values should have taken a few minutes and a couple of taglines in the weekly patch notes. Warframe is officially still a beta, right? How about treating it like one? 

 

Start making small, weekly batches of straightforward changes and adjust them based on the feedback you'll inevitably get from the community. Start with the Boltor Prime's Mastery rank. Start sorting forgotten weapons into appropriate tiers. I promise you, it won't be the end of the world. 

 

One thing you should hopefully notice is how many weapons fit into the MR0-MR2 tier. You should also hopefully notice that most of these weapons are the oldest ones. I'm not saying "start buffing all the old stuff!" I'm saying "please don't forget that it exists." 

 

Please, sort out a clearly defined Mastery Rank profile of weapon tiers. Have a concrete idea of what sort of stats fit into MR1. Which stats befit MR10. Which stats will befit MR30. Do this now, so that when you release new weapons in the future, you know exactly where they should fit on the scale. You don't actually need to start tweaking stat numbers just yet. Just sort out mastery ranks, and then start working with stats accordingly. It's easy, and it can be a progressive change rather than a huge overhaul that takes away from development time. We're here to help you along the way.

[Archistopheles]

I doubt Scott will ever say, but he seems to be (or claims to be) the final word on numeric values and therefore, balance.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Agreed, which is why I'm low-key hoping for someone else who happens to have an understanding of the situation and give some sort of confirmation. It's not an optimistic hope. It's just a hope. And if that is indeed the case, it should be clear that the balance aspect of Warframe is severely understaffed. There's no reason why he can't have two or three other people helping him crunch numbers before he okays them. 

[Orbister]

I agree completely. +1

[DiabolusUrsus]

If anyone else can think of simple changes that would be really easy to implement, by all means bring them up! I can't think of everything off the top of my head, and I'm sure the devs can't either, so that's where we as the community can come in. Why is the Orthos Prime Mastery Rank 2?

[DSpite]

I think people should stop posting like they are entitled to get "things changed" like it's their birthright. Plenty of times I'll scream and carry on when something annoys me, but never, in the back of my mind, does the thought the DE "need to get on this right now, what the hell do they think they are doing" entered my mind.

 

I'm pretty sure you don't inject hundreds of dollars into the game constantly, and even if you ACTUALLY did, you are paying to unlock current content, since you are not psychic and can not predict future content you might like.

 

You want changes? Fine, point things out. Shout and carry on if you must, but do NOT start lines with "hey, you read this? Yes? Then start doing X and Y right now" because I'm pretty sure they will ignore you, hell, I would. I have already told you once in another thread that all you seem to do is make lists of demands, and not provide feedback which is the ONLY thing you can do.

 

"it should be clear that the balance aspect of Warframe is severely understaffed. There's no reason why he can't have two or three other people helping him crunch numbers before he okays them."

Edited November 14, 2014 by [DE]Drew

[Sasquatchias]

I think one thing that'd go a long way to help with the balancing would be to rethink the values of Mods like Serration, Hornet Strike, and even Heavy Caliber.

 

As it is now I really do believe that they sort of throw a wrench in the current balance, and something should be done about them.

[Azawarau]

I agree entirely

 

 

I think people should stop posting like they are entitled to get "things changed" like it's their birthright. Plenty of times I'll scream and carry on when something annoys me, but never, in the back of my mind, does the thought the DE "need to get on this right now, what the hell do they think they are doing" entered my mind.

 

I'm pretty sure you don't inject hundreds of dollars into the game constantly, and even if you ACTUALLY did, you are paying to unlock current content, since you are not psychic and can not predict future content you might like.

 

You want changes? Fine, point things out. Shout and carry on if you must, but do NOT start lines with "hey, you read this? Yes? Then start doing X and Y right now" because I'm pretty sure they will ignore you, hell, I would. I have already told you once in another thread that all you seem to do is make lists of demands, and not provide feedback which is the ONLY thing you can do.

 

"it should be clear that the balance aspect of Warframe is severely understaffed. There's no reason why he can't have two or three other people helping him crunch numbers before he okays them."

 

Brilliant. You have the art of making friends down to a fine art.

Hes not looking for instant change

 

Hes saying there are little balancing issues that could be handled in small bunches over time rather than during a large upadate

 

For example rage and QT (though this bug couldve been difficult to fix),the changes to launchers,buffs and nerfs to weapons or frames that only include small changes

 

Start making small, weekly batches of straightforward changes and adjust them based on the feedback you'll inevitably get from the community

 

Literally the opposite of what youre accusing

[DiabolusUrsus]

I think people should stop posting like they are entitled to get "things changed" like it's their birthright. Plenty of times I'll scream and carry on when something annoys me, but never, in the back of my mind, does the thought the DE "need to get on this right now, what the hell do they think they are doing" entered my mind.

 

I'm pretty sure you don't inject hundreds of dollars into the game constantly, and even if you ACTUALLY did, you are paying to unlock current content, since you are not psychic and can not predict future content you might like.

 

You want changes? Fine, point things out. Shout and carry on if you must, but do NOT start lines with "hey, you read this? Yes? Then start doing X and Y right now" because I'm pretty sure they will ignore you, hell, I would. I have already told you once in another thread that all you seem to do is make lists of demands, and not provide feedback which is the ONLY thing you can do.

 

"it should be clear that the balance aspect of Warframe is severely understaffed. There's no reason why he can't have two or three other people helping him crunch numbers before he okays them."

 

Brilliant. You have the art of making friends down to a fine art.

 

I'm still waiting for the day you make some sort of useful contribution to ongoing discussion.

[DSpite]

I'm still waiting for the day you make some sort of useful contribution to ongoing discussion.

 

This is not a discussion. This is an entitled child telling their parents that they are doing things wrong. The moment I think it starts to become a "discussion" I'll add something.

[DiabolusUrsus]

This is not a discussion. This is an entitled child telling their parents that they are doing things wrong. The moment I think it starts to become a "discussion" I'll add something.

"I think that if you guys started making small, continuous changes and integrating the plethora of community feedback you get, it would be less of a workload on you guys and of greater benefit overall to the entire community."

I think you need to reassess your understanding of the term "Feedback."

So when you're done with the ad hominem and aimless irritation, feel free to write back. Or are you seriously trying to tell me that suggesting small, frequent changes instead of 2.0 overhauls is somehow inappropriate? 

 

edit: That broken grammar. >_<

Edited October 31, 2014 by DiabolusUrsus

[IAreNelson]

This is not a discussion. This is an entitled child telling their parents that they are doing things wrong. The moment I think it starts to become a "discussion" I'll add something.

 

Aren't we supposed to be giving feedback on how we feel the game is being developed? Isn't it our job to tell them what we think is wrong and ways to improve it? If we aren't supposed to do that I don't know why they made it an open beta.

[LazyKnight]

I wouldn't be surprised if Scott ignores feedback about weapons for stress related reason alone. In every live-stream he has ever been in he gets visible stressed-out when he talks about the criticism he revives about balance. 

 

Warframe has been out for over a year, and it is balanced enough to be a successful video game franchise. It would be a very safe bet to consider the staff's view is that the game is 'balanced enough' to not prioritize it, unless an issue is causing a 'fire'.

 

If Scott were to reassign mastery rank on weapon, and do it perfectly, he would still enrage a significant portion of the player base. Personally, i would like if Scott were to clearly outline what tier weapons belong to, but if he does not want to it would not bother me.

Edited October 31, 2014 by LazyKnight

[IAreNelson]

I wouldn't be surprised if Scott ignores feedback about weapons for stress related reason alone. In every live-stream he has ever been in he gets visible stressed-out when he talks about the criticism he revives about balance. 

 

Warframe has been out for over a year, and it is balanced enough to be a successful video game franchise. It would be a very safe bet to consider the staff's view is that the game is 'balanced enough' to not prioritize it, unless an issue is causing a 'fire'.

 

If Scott were to reassign mastery rank on weapon, and do it perfectly, he would still enrage a significant portion of the player base. Personally, i would like if Scott were to clearly outline what tier weapons belong to, but if he does not want to it would not bother me.

 

I agree with what you're saying, but I think what the OP is trying to say though, is just implement something now. Let us look at it and tell you what tweaks should be made. The current style of how things have worked is we say this should get fixed. They agree and say we'll look at it. We wait for a year while they make these changes that become a 2.0 overhaul.

 

What I would like to have happen to, as an example, the MR is every week they add a MR requirement to like 5 weapons. So over the course of a  a few months all the weapons can be tiered. By doing this in small doses we can give feedback that is very specific. If we have to wait for MR 2.0, a couple of things will happen. 1) We feel like they're ignoring us. 2) They probably start to get a perfectionist complex about the changes which delays it more. 3) We kinda just get used to how things are and so when they drop a big overhaul on us, people are more likely to not like it. 

[DiabolusUrsus]

I wouldn't be surprised if Scott ignores feedback about weapons for stress related reason alone. In every live-stream he has ever been in he gets visible stressed-out when he talks about the criticism he revives about balance. 

 

Warframe has been out for over a year, and it is balanced enough to be a successful video game franchise. It would be a very safe bet to consider the staff's view is that the game is 'balanced enough' to not prioritize it, unless an issue is causing a 'fire'.

 

If Scott were to reassign mastery rank on weapon, and do it perfectly, he would still enrage a significant portion of the player base. Personally, i would like if Scott were to clear outline what tier weapons belong to, but if he does not want to it would not bother me.

 

 

Agreed. Which is in and of itself a problem, considering DE prides itself on being open to any and all feedback people are willing to give. 

 

That's also why I'm suggesting a system for implementing necessary changes without giving them excessive priority. So far, DE has made two things very clear:

1. They acknowledge balance as an ongoing issue of some importance.

2. Mastery rank is supposed to indicate how powerful a weapon is.

 

However, it does not do this. Many of the most powerful weapons are very low in Mastery prerequisite requirements, while higher-ranked weapons are objectively weaker. The Mastery Rank system is a huge knot of inconsistency right now, but straightening out that inconsistency will go a long way towards clarifying how balance is supposed to work and lightening their workload.

Even then, DE will still have a lot of work on their plate. Which is precisely why I'm suggesting that they start on it somewhere, anywhere. It doesn't much matter what they start with. The point is that making a few changes here and there each week will inevitably be less stressful than waiting months upon months to make those changes all at once before trying to withstand the tsunami of agitated feedback that will inevitably follow. 

Yes, jimmies will inevitably be rustled by any change that is made. That doesn't make the best course of action trying to avoid stepping on any toes. The devs did a great job of weathering the unrest surrounding the launcher ammunition changes. Where is that unrest now? Once again, stuff like that isn't the end of the world. Furthermore, making more frequent changes means that the devs can start making smaller changes. Changes that don't get people as strongly up-in-arms. 

 

I'd say that this would be akin to writing an essay a bit at a time over the course of three weeks instead of trying to cram it all in the night before it's due. It's much less stressful, and you have plenty of time to edit and make improvements along the way. 

[Azawarau]

This is not a discussion. This is an entitled child telling their parents that they are doing things wrong. The moment I think it starts to become a "discussion" I'll add something.

The only thing that isnt up for discussion is your derailment

 

 

I wouldn't be surprised if Scott ignores feedback about weapons for stress related reason alone. In every live-stream he has ever been in he gets visible stressed-out when he talks about the criticism he revives about balance. 

 

Warframe has been out for over a year, and it is balanced enough to be a successful video game franchise. It would be a very safe bet to consider the staff's view is that the game is 'balanced enough' to not prioritize it, unless an issue is causing a 'fire'.

 

If Scott were to reassign mastery rank on weapon, and do it perfectly, he would still enrage a significant portion of the player base. Personally, i would like if Scott were to clearly outline what tier weapons belong to, but if he does not want to it would not bother me.

We need to have a sit down with him or megathread and get things done then

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

^ Nicely done.

[MichaelSD]

This is not a discussion. This is an entitled child telling their parents that they are doing things wrong. The moment I think it starts to become a "discussion" I'll add something.

 

But unlike a child I can and did stop spending money on warframe. Unlike a parent, the devs live of the their "children", so they better listen.

[s7n7a7k7e]

I think people should stop posting like they are entitled to get "things changed" like it's their birthright. Plenty of times I'll scream and carry on when something annoys me, but never, in the back of my mind, does the thought the DE "need to get on this right now, what the hell do they think they are doing" entered my mind.

 

I'm pretty sure you don't inject hundreds of dollars into the game constantly, and even if you ACTUALLY did, you are paying to unlock current content, since you are not psychic and can not predict future content you might like.

 

You want changes? Fine, point things out. Shout and carry on if you must, but do NOT start lines with "hey, you read this? Yes? Then start doing X and Y right now" because I'm pretty sure they will ignore you, hell, I would. I have already told you once in another thread that all you seem to do is make lists of demands, and not provide feedback which is the ONLY thing you can do.

 

"it should be clear that the balance aspect of Warframe is severely understaffed. There's no reason why he can't have two or three other people helping him crunch numbers before he okays them."

 

Brilliant. You have the gist of making friends down to a fine art.

 

^ ^ This

[grillv20]

It would be nice if they put together some sort of road map of where they want to go and what they want to do. It would be great to see what they have in mind. We sort of got that SORT OF got that at the beginning of the year when melee 2.0 and their hub idea was getting worked on and they were showing stuff off in the dev streams.

 

I wonder if there will ever be a big enough team within the DE family to work with Scott or who ever works on the balancing side of things to go back and work on things while they're in progress of making the newer additions to the game. 

Edited November 22, 2014 by grillv20

[Orbister]

This is not a discussion. This is an entitled child telling their parents that they are doing things wrong. The moment I think it starts to become a "discussion" I'll add something.

Do you know what is more annoying than an "entitled complainer"? it is an "entitled meta-complainer" join the discussion with valuable constructive comments, instead of your judgmental attitude that doesn't really add anything productive.

[grillv20]

.

Edited November 22, 2014 by grillv20

[grillv20]

I think people should stop posting like they are entitled to get "things changed" like it's their birthright. Plenty of times I'll scream and carry on when something annoys me, but never, in the back of my mind, does the thought the DE "need to get on this right now, what the hell do they think they are doing" entered my mind.

 

I'm pretty sure you don't inject hundreds of dollars into the game constantly, and even if you ACTUALLY did, you are paying to unlock current content, since you are not psychic and can not predict future content you might like.

 

You want changes? Fine, point things out. Shout and carry on if you must, but do NOT start lines with "hey, you read this? Yes? Then start doing X and Y right now" because I'm pretty sure they will ignore you, hell, I would. I have already told you once in another thread that all you seem to do is make lists of demands, and not provide feedback which is the ONLY thing you can do.

 

"it should be clear that the balance aspect of Warframe is severely understaffed. There's no reason why he can't have two or three other people helping him crunch numbers before he okays them."

 

 

This is not a discussion. This is an entitled child telling their parents that they are doing things wrong. The moment I think it starts to become a "discussion" I'll add something.

 

I'm pretty sure the whole purpose of a feedback forum is to tell people they're doing it wrong or to give advice. I might be mistaken. Who knows, maybe somebody can correct me on this. All I know is that there was feedback, it wasn't exactly negative and there were examples given. That being said, please kindly unfook yourself and contribute to the conversation instead of crying that feedback is being given on a feedback forum. Jesus why am I even wasting my time posting this? Geez, who would have thought that people would tell people how to put together their game on a beta feedback forum. Its like one of the new mysteries of the world I guess.

Edited November 22, 2014 by grillv20

[Azawarau]

It would be nice if they put together some sort of road map of where they want to go and what they want to do. It would be great to see what they have in mind. We sort of got that SORT OF got that at the beginning of the year when melee 2.0 and their hub idea was getting worked on and they were showing stuff off in the dev streams.

 

I wonder if there will ever be a big enough team within the DE family to work with Scott or who ever works on the balancing side of things to go back and work on things while they're in progress of making the newer additions to the game. 

I just had that same thought

 

A future ideas thread from the devs where players could inout ideas early would be extremely helpful for directing ideas in the same direction

 

As we are now were just shooting in the dark

[optyk]

I just had that same thought

 

A future ideas thread from the devs where players could inout ideas early would be extremely helpful for directing ideas in the same direction

 

As we are now were just shooting in the dark

 

 

The future ideas thread is the Design Council forums; but let it be known, before someone QQs, they dont share every aspect of the game.

 

Otherwise we have The Developer Workshop Forum