Removing Hitscan And Replacing It With Projectile Mechanic.

[Phatose]

Your entire post smells of wrong to me, because you can avoid damage to your HP simply through rapid movement and use of cover, and reliance on the shield restore mechanic.

 

This is not some table-top RPG where your survival depends entirely on dice-rolls. The players reflexes, aim, situational awareness and knowledge are being put to the test in Warframe just as much as Battlefield and Halo. This is an action TPS  with RPG elements, it's not an RPG game with TPS elements(Mass Effect 1 is one such game).

 

No, you really can't.  That's been made completely clear with the addition of bleed procs.  What you are describing does not work, has not worked since Dmg 2.0, and only even worked in Dmg 1.0 provided you had already acquired sufficient drops to boost your shields and sufficient levels for your frame, and even then it was limited in the enemy level range where you could pull it off.

 

Warframe is far far more drop centric and collection centric them Mass Effect is.  This isn't merely an action game with some added RPG elements, it's a full on Action/RPG hybrid, and it leans heavily on it's RPG elements.  Always has, and this is intention.  Remember the devstream where they pointed to Zamboni's thread?  Steve laid that out, crystal clear for everyone.  He didn't reference Halo - he referenced paper D&D.

[TwiceDead]

No, you really can't.  That's been made completely clear with the addition of bleed procs.  What you are describing does not work, has not worked since Dmg 2.0, and only even worked in Dmg 1.0 provided you had already acquired sufficient drops to boost your shields and sufficient levels for your frame, and even then it was limited in the enemy level range where you could pull it off.

 

Warframe is far far more drop centric and collection centric them Mass Effect is.  This isn't merely an action game with some added RPG elements, it's a full on Action/RPG hybrid, and it leans heavily on it's RPG elements.  Always has, and this is intention.  Remember the devstream where they pointed to Zamboni's thread?  Steve laid that out, crystal clear for everyone.  He didn't reference Halo - he referenced paper D&D.

 

I don't pay much attention to the devstreams so I can only make assumptions based on my own observations, and as such I stand corrected.

 

You can still avoid most lethal damage through skillful play however, depending on game-mode and circumstances. 

Edited November 2, 2014 by TwiceDead

[Phatose]

Cool. 

 

Mind you, I'd like to see some more focus on the action elements.  Not quite make everything hitscan, but certainly a bit more then we have now.  But I'm not holding my breath - the chief dev called this a game about progression, and the course I've watched this game take really reinforces that.

[Vyeth]

because its fare that enemy can hit you while you are running, jumping, spinning and overall moving all the time.

 

hitscan does not reward players that are moving all the time and that is what this game is, fast paced and fast moving, projectiles would only reward moving players. 

 

But as Phatos said, this game has elements of RPG. We have ways to mitigate and parry damage without having to actually manually "dodge" the bullets coming at us. How would Parry be affected? Would we have to block at just the right time?

 

Also as others have said, most of these fights take place indoors pretty close range, the bullets would impact near instant anyway. And in Archwing missions all the guns are appropriately projectile as the distance is vastly greater than the indoor environments. 

[vaugahn]

Also as others have said, most of these fights take place indoors pretty close range, the bullets would impact near instant anyway. And in Archwing missions all the guns are appropriately projectile as the distance is vastly greater than the indoor environments. 

 

Actually, the Imperator is hitscan as well.

[Vyeth]

Actually, the Imperator is hitscan as well.

 

I've aimed down sights and actually seen projectiles.. They go fast, but they are there..

 

EDIT* Ah okay just seen the wiki page.. Hmm.. I gotcha..

Edited November 2, 2014 by Vyeth

[vaugahn]

I've aimed down sights and actually seen projectiles.. They go fast, but they are there..

 

Just an animation. Try spinning and firing, you'll see the projectiles go wide but you can still hit things. 

[Ryker]

Actually bullets travel fast enough to make hitscan seems legitimate. 

[LtZefar]

Battlefield 4's hitreg is complete garbage. Broken beyond belief. It's not a game I'd use as an example for good hitreg, not by a long shot. 

It isn't. I've played BF3 and BF4 for quite some time. Hitreg with weapons was just fine in both of them. I know some people had issues where their bullets wouldn't register but that is often about bad connection to the server.

 

If it was broken beyond belief no one would play it.

[Taranis49]

No, you really can't.  That's been made completely clear with the addition of bleed procs.  What you are describing does not work, has not worked since Dmg 2.0, and only even worked in Dmg 1.0 provided you had already acquired sufficient drops to boost your shields and sufficient levels for your frame, and even then it was limited in the enemy level range where you could pull it off.

 

Warframe is far far more drop centric and collection centric them Mass Effect is.  This isn't merely an action game with some added RPG elements, it's a full on Action/RPG hybrid, and it leans heavily on it's RPG elements.  Always has, and this is intention.  Remember the devstream where they pointed to Zamboni's thread?  Steve laid that out, crystal clear for everyone.  He didn't reference Halo - he referenced paper D&D.

 

Thing is, unavoidable bleed procs are only prominent with one faction - the others are generally devoid of such. The Grineer are the exception, not the rule.

 

Indeed, DE's even acknowledged it as being problematic (to put it mildly) on the forums that the player can be heavily penalized simply because a Grineer happened to get a lucky dice roll.

 

It's basically just a lesser version of the old "rocks fall, everyone dies" trope.

 

The "Oh, it's an Action/RPG hybrid" claim isn't particularly convincing either. The first two letters in the acronym are a clue, with the old pencil/paper ones, it was possible to deal with issues by actually, you know, role playing your character.

[Azawarau]

Battlefield 4's hitreg is complete garbage. Broken beyond belief. It's not a game I'd use as an example for good hitreg, not by a long shot. 

This game did it badly

 

So warframe shouldnt do it either!

 

Im 100% with you

 

Lol.

 

Ever been hit by Grineer who manage to get a slash proc on you? You can't dodge omnipotent enemies with hitscan weaponry and zero reaction time.

 

They already lead their shots, perfectly too.

https://vimeo.com/106749984

 

It can be dodged but not 100%

 

Stay mobile

[omegaskorpion]

This game did it badly

 

So warframe shouldnt do it either!

 

Im 100% with you

 

https://vimeo.com/106749984

 

It can be dodged but not 100%

 

Stay mobile

 

you seen high levels?, they hit with every shot even when you are doing fancy fast movement around them.

in lower levels grineer cant even hit the wall.

 

also, i did play bf3 back in the day (until i saw that it was dlc driven game so i stopped)

 

but the projectile mechanic worked there, even in closer guaters.

 

the only place it didnt work was if the server was laggy as F***. but 90% of the time it worked.

 

accualy how its hard to implement this, we already have boltor and stuff, if bullet weapons would have projectiles, it would be just reskinned bolt as bullet and speeded up with 2x-5x?

[PAlDACTOR]

GR8 idea! I never thought about that. You're right, DE PLZ ADD DIS!

[PAlDACTOR]

dis would haylp

Edited November 2, 2014 by -CM-Letrix

[PAlDACTOR]

This game did it badly

 

So warframe shouldnt do it either!

 

Im 100% with you

 

https://vimeo.com/106749984

 

It can be dodged but not 100%

 

Stay mobile

lvl 19 ballista breh, (sorry omega didnt see the post above u) ._. low lvl

 

 

[(NSW)GameV8]

The problem of "Grineer are either stormtroopers or elite marksman." won't really be solved by switching to the projectile ballistic model, at least not without hugely exaggerated travel time.  A ".22 short" projectile ^{(sub sonic)} will travel 50 yards in roughly 0.12 seconds/120 milliseconds now I don't know about anyone else but my average reaction time tested on this site is 243ms so you can't really dodge a bullet, you can only dodge the shooter's aim. If you don't beleave that then here's Mythbusters data, which is even less forgiving than mine.

 

The real problem with NPC accuracy is that it's AI and therefor has a reaction time of near zero, the NPCs are ether always shooting directly at you, or they are, as the OP said stormtroopers. You won't notice it with the Corpus because they use painfully slow lasers and that can create an illusion of evading shots.  So the only way to make dodging shots a reality ^{(without making painfully slow bullets)} would be to adjust the reaction time of Grineer units so that 500ms ^{(or some random number)} after you move their aim follows. 

[LGear]

No, you really can't.  That's been made completely clear with the addition of bleed procs.  What you are describing does not work, has not worked since Dmg 2.0, and only even worked in Dmg 1.0 provided you had already acquired sufficient drops to boost your shields and sufficient levels for your frame, and even then it was limited in the enemy level range where you could pull it off.

 

 

Actually dodging is in part fact of Warframe gameplay. Try a simple experiment sometime, which I've personally tested more than once (at least before the aim algorithm change): get a Grineer Heavy Gunner, preferably on a map with a large open area, and run in a circle around it at distance. If you're moving fast enough and in a direction where they're forced to have to turn their weapon to hit you, they won't actually deal damage to you. In essence, you're dodging their shot, and hence why mobility is actually a very important part of Warframe's survival mechanics: moving prevents you from getting shot.

 

The recent buff to Grineer accuracy may have given them incredible aim, but they are still operating under the mechanics of standard aiming programs - if they're aim is off due to a number of factors, they will miss. This isn't XCOM where you can still miss even if your shot has a 99% chance of hitting against a target that's standing still with a "SHOOT ME" sign on top, this is a third-person shooter/action game, and thus the standard mechanics of such games applies.

Edited November 2, 2014 by LGear

[Phatose]

So, where exactly do you recommend I find a mission with one single Grineer heavy gunner which I never ever have to stop to attack?

 

What you are describing is a heavily idealized scenario, where you've got one enemy at one angle and you're doing nothing but dodging.  Which almost never actually happens.

[Azawarau]

you seen high levels?, they hit with every shot even when you are doing fancy fast movement around them.

in lower levels grineer cant even hit the wall.

 

also, i did play bf3 back in the day (until i saw that it was dlc driven game so i stopped)

 

but the projectile mechanic worked there, even in closer guaters.

 

the only place it didnt work was if the server was laggy as F***. but 90% of the time it worked.

 

accualy how its hard to implement this, we already have boltor and stuff, if bullet weapons would have projectiles, it would be just reskinned bolt as bullet and speeded up with 2x-5x?

Lvl 70s with my saryn just recently

 

Same tactics with 4 spam and Vectis no scope shots

 

Still not seeing an issue

[LGear]

So, where exactly do you recommend I find a mission with one single Grineer heavy gunner which I never ever have to stop to attack?

 

What you are describing is a heavily idealized scenario, where you've got one enemy at one angle and you're doing nothing but dodging.  Which almost never actually happens.

 

 Earth and Phobos have lots of places to do that. Just kill everyone else first.

 

Also, the point I'm making is that Grineer units and every other enemy with hitscan are not "dice roll" enemies that hit or don't hit you depending on RNG, and that you can in fact influence their accuracy via actions that prevent them from getting a bead.

[vaugahn]

So, where exactly do you recommend I find a mission with one single Grineer heavy gunner which I never ever have to stop to attack?

 

What you are describing is a heavily idealized scenario, where you've got one enemy at one angle and you're doing nothing but dodging.  Which almost never actually happens.

 

Grineer accuracy is lowered a lot when you're running. Go to any mission and compare standing still to moving. Corpus shots are even easier to dodge.

 

This is not a pen-and-paper role playing game, where Grineer roll to hit and you take damage. Unless they entirely remove the third person shooting part of the game, player skill will always be a factor in survivablilty. Not the only factor, but a factor. 

[Phatose]

 Earth and Phobos have lots of places to do that. Just kill everyone else first.

 

Also, the point I'm making is that Grineer units and every other enemy with hitscan are not "dice roll" enemies that hit or don't hit you depending on RNG, and that you can in fact influence their accuracy via actions that prevent them from getting a bead.

 

And the die roll is the other factor, despite what you're claiming.

 

You can influence the die roll, sure - run, jump, dodge a lot.  But eventually you will get hit no matter what you do.  That is an RPG mechanic at it's core.  Sufficient skill cannot stop you from ever getting hit - never could and never will.

[LGear]

And the die roll is the other factor, despite what you're claiming.

 

You can influence the die roll, sure - run, jump, dodge a lot.  But eventually you will get hit no matter what you do.  That is an RPG mechanic at it's core.  Sufficient skill cannot stop you from ever getting hit - never could and never will.

 

Actually, there's a core mechanic that prevents you from ever getting hit in battle, ever.

 

It's called battlefield cover.

 

You can in fact get behind cover, and then corner shoot against enemies (not exactly corner shooting, but the Warframe third-person view is slanted slightly such that you can shoot around a corner without getting hit by enemies). It's how I use my squishier frames whenever I'm loathe to use powers because I'm leveling up my guns. Even space ninjas can find virtue in discretion, and discretion when faced against overwhelming amounts of firepower is to either kill them all quickly, or take cover.

 

Also, of course if you're fighting out in the open you're gonna hit one way or another in this game due to probability, but not in the way you might think it is. Its actually very simple: when there's hundreds upon hundreds of bullets being fired upon you from all different directions by a handful or a dozen enemies, of course one or many of them will hit you sooner or later. The concept of "volume of fire" to increase hit chance probability is the reason rapid-fire automatic weapons like machine guns were developed IRL afterall. That really is different through from guns supposedly being RNG-based in targeting where a full-auto weapon rolls for only 20% chance-to-hit and so misses ALL of its shots in an all-or-nothing hit situation, that's just silly.

[TwiceDead]

It isn't. I've played BF3 and BF4 for quite some time. Hitreg with weapons was just fine in both of them. I know some people had issues where their bullets wouldn't register but that is often about bad connection to the server.

 

If it was broken beyond belief no one would play it.

When 1/3rd of the bullets I fire into a target using the AEK doesn't register, the hitreg is garbage. I am sorry you haven't noticed yet, I just think it's fair you are informed, and it's not just about bad connection to the server, me and the group I play with have made these observations multiple times on low populated domination servers which is primarily about snappy aim and run'n gun. It's just the usual garbage DICE pulled along with the entirety of BF4.

 

 

This game did it badly

 

So warframe shouldn't do it either!

 

Im 100% with you

 

... What? Was that sarcasm? Or are you being serious? Because this sentence confused the hell out of me. The projectiles fired in warframe have been rather solid to my experience. 

Edited November 2, 2014 by TwiceDead

[Azawarau]

... What? Was that sarcasm? Or are you being serious? Because this sentence confused the hell out of me. The projectiles fired in warframe have been rather solid to my experience. 

Total sarcasm