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Warframe Reworks: Is Vauban On The List?


LazerusKI
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just a simple question.
I dont want to start a topic about "but he is good" or "you use him wrong", thats not the point.
All i want to know is, are there plans to look into him?

 

Why?

Since Vauban came out, there was not much that he went through.
Some very strong Bastille and Vortex nerfs, but nothing that benefits him.
Compared to a frame like Valkyr, who got the strongest Armor ever.

just a quote from the wiki:

 

With Vigor, Vitality, and Steel Fiber equipped and maxed, an effective health of 4472 is possible, the highest possible for any warframe without using damage reduction abilities.

Frosts rework gave him good offense skills besides his defensive snowglobe.
Oberon got some pretty nice support-buffs on his skill.
Excaliburs rework...i dont like him, but i would call it decent.
Ash got his Shurikens of doom and went through a lot of Bladestorms

Ember is still somehow worked on

Mag got a new (and better) Bullet attractor and pull
Trinity got nerfed, no more godmode spam

...there were a lot of changes as you can see. So many that i cant even remember all of them. But most of them beneficial for the frames.

Thats the reason i want to know, if vauban will get changes too.
As i said above, i dont want to start a topic about his epicness or why he is worthless. I like him, for leveling against infested there is nothing better than a vortex, and combined with a disarm loki he is even a god against the ranged stuff.

 

If he is fine, whats the sense of this topic then?

Actually...he is not that fine.
Vauban needs a lot of time, forma and skill to work properly. And after all that he is only specialised in one thing, compared to other Defense-Frames that i will mention below.

 

The things that are not so beneficial for Vauban are mainly his elements and his skillset.

 

We have to admit that electricity and magnetic are not the best elements for damage. now with Tesla Link, i hope that the slash damage turns out to be nice, but still, i would love to see a different tesla kind, a Tesla that can actually kill stuff. Sure, the damage over time is nice (i mean when it hits all of its charges)...but i have never seen someone using Vauban for offense. Since we cant stick them to our Sentinels anymore, i cant even see a reason for that (somehow i miss that time)

 

Every other defense frame has something for offense - except Vauban.

Frost has Freeze, Icewave and Avalanche while he still has the Ultimate ranged defense - Snowglobe.
Hydroid has his Barrage, Surge and Tentacles, while he can do something similar like Vortex with his Puddle - he can remove enemies completely from the fight until the target is secured.
Banshee can buff and continuously knock down targets with her Quake

just as examples.
Vaubans only offense ability is Tesla, and Tesla is again mostly for defense, since you need to spam it to deal deadly damage.

 

Also Vauban has to sacrifice a lot of slots to be effective.

Maximum Efficiency (Fleeting Expertise + Streamline) to keep up his CC reduces his duration a lot.
Maximising Duration (Narrow Minded + Continuity + Constitution) then to keep them active reduces his range again.
Maximising the Range (Overextended + Stretch) then to keep the CC usefull reduces his power.

So Bastille and Tesla are useless at the end.

My Vauban has 5 Forma just to use the mods...
At the end i can sit in a corner and spam Vortex. I cant deal damage and i cant tank damage.
Also since Bastille has a targetcap, its not the primary choice for infested defense, so there is not much sense in maximising compared to vortex or the other skills.
Tesla would only be usefull against Corpus, Bounce...lets ignore that, Bastille is more annoying than usefull, since the infested enemy wont walk towards you and get trapped, so Vortex is his primary skill in Infested Defense.
With Loki he can also defend against Grineer/Corpus, and with Frost his stuff is just a small bonus there.

 

My Frost Prime on the other hand is different. Not a single Forma and i can do everything.

Maximum Efficiency - reduces the Duration.
Durration (Just Narrow Minded) - Reduces my Range

Stretch brings the range up again, enough to protect the Pod AND Nuke a good amout of enemies with Avalanche.
Intensify strengthens my offense and defense, i have enough slots for Redirection and Shield, and i have even one slot opened.

And all that without a single forma.
I can tank, i can defend (snowglobe lasts 40s), i can nuke.

 

You see? Vauban is only good against stuff in melee.
To be effective in CC against infested, he has to sacrifice a lot. since he could not even "tank" a few shots with maximised health and shield, you wouldnt want him to go all offense anyways.

Hydroid has stats above average and he can turn the defense-pod AND himself invulnerable to damage against infested with his puddle.

Rhinos Stomp pulls enemies out of cover like bastille, just without targetcap and shorter duration, but with twice the range and it deals damage.

Banshees Quake can make enemies stumble - again in twice the range of bastille, without a targetcap, while dealing damage over time.
They can all be good at offense while also being good in defense. Vauban is the only one who is "special".

Edited by LazerusKI
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Vauban doesn't need time and forma at all, one can build a strong Vauban without any, if you want to min/max then yes, he needs forma, but that is true of any frame. He turns out more powerful with less than most though. Or at least, I have yet to have a problem with him running to wave 15 solo on Xini with no forma.
And he did recently receive a buff allowing Vortex to scale with range and duration. 
Maximization of mods isn't always the best route to achieve an optimal build, it looks like you're trying to do that and it isn't working out, perhaps you should try not using max corrupted mods and see how that goes?


 

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Vauban doesn't need time and forma at all, one can build a strong Vauban without any, if you want to min/max then yes, he needs forma, but that is true of any frame.

exactly as i said. he works, he is fine in what he can do, BUT compared to other defenders, he is limited.

Xini is infested, and against infested he is good. Now do that with him on Pluto - or do you use someone like frost there instead?

sure, you can use him without corrupted mod, without forma, but does that make him any stronger against Corpus and Grineer? no. Does it stay the same against Infested? - Hell, as long as you can keep up Vortex you could play him without a weapon.

Edited by LazerusKI
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Also since Bastille has a targetcap, its not the primary choice for infested defense, so there is not much sense in maximising compared to vortex or the other skills.

 

There's no limit on how many Bastilles you can throw out, so lay down a few in vital areas and let them do the work.

 

I hate to be "that guy," but this sounds like a personal problem.

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Also:

I have yet to have a problem with him running to wave 15 solo on Xini with no forma.

 Wave 15...

As i said...you dont even need a weapon to do that with vauban...

just try wave 30+, when one vortex or bastille is not long enough for you to kill them all.
At that point there are more infested than bastille can hold, and they will clutter at the corners, making it even harder for you to kill all of them in time.

At that point you will run out of energy or ammo, since bastille costs 75 and Vortex 100, so you want to keep the cost as low as possible, and to do that, you need to sacrifice other things, and that will cause a chain reaction.
Without Fleeting Expertise, just Streamline, each Vortex would cost 70 Energy, so around 3 Bubbles every 20 seconds. Is that possible? Nope. Spamming Bastille would be even worse...

 

There's no limit on how many Bastilles you can throw out, so lay down a few in vital areas and let them do the work.

 

I hate to be "that guy," but this sounds like a personal problem.

You havnt read anything at all, do you?

Killing target trapped in bastille takes time, time means energy, energy means survival.
You WANT to collect all the infested in one spot and kill them all together as fast as possible. Bastille is not the way to do that.

Look at the example i described above. Do i need maximum power with Frost? no. Its enough to shield the pod for as long as possible with minimum costs. You can reach that very quickly, even if you have corrupted stuff. and while you archive that, you can still go all offense.
Vaubans range is low. i mean...one of his CCs has a targetcap, and the other needs a lot of range mods to be effective. Not to mention that this ability costs more than a snowglobe, and you need to cast it twice as often.
Without Intensify, Bastille can only hold 12 targets for 75 Energy - i would be so happy if there would be JUST 12 enemies storming towards the pod.

 

Do you need maximum power with Hydroid? no. he can run the same build as Frost, as long as the target is disarmed, they will fall into the puddle.

Edited by LazerusKI
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To be honest, the only things I would to see changed with Vauban is adding a forced electrical proc to Tesla grenades (to help improve their damage and CC against crowds at higher levels) and maybe give Bounce some more oomph or some other minor improvement (since the new air melee attacks may have rendered the need for Bounce somewhat moot in most scenarios).

 

Otherwise I think Vauban is pretty low on the list of frames that need tweaking/attention. His skillset may not be the most exciting or versatile, but it functions well and there are plenty of other frames that could use some improving over him.

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yes booben is on the list, as a matter of fact, he was mentioned recently as being looked at for tweaks

Thanks, thats good to know.

 

To be honest, the only things I would to see changed with Vauban is adding a forced electrical proc to Tesla grenades (to help improve their damage and CC against crowds at higher levels) and maybe give Bounce some more oomph or some other minor improvement (since the new air melee attacks may have rendered the need for Bounce somewhat moot in most scenarios).

 

Otherwise I think Vauban is pretty low on the list of frames that need tweaking/attention. His skillset may not be the most exciting or versatile, but it functions well and there are plenty of other frames that could use some improving over him.

That would be indeed interesting to see.

Also: Thats exactly the point. He works fine in what he can do, but what he can do is not that much. He is simply TOO specialised in controlling Infested.

Vauban is nice to have against Infested Defense, but is he usefull somewhere else? Grineer? Wrong Element, not enough Health. Corpus? Right Element but Vauban has no defense against ranged stuff. So frost is the defender of choice there.

He will get another big punch in his face when there are more ranged infested.

And since Infested are such a limited faction now...i mean...one planet and sometimes during invasion...he is not used that much anymore.

Edited by LazerusKI
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A lot of time and forma? Maybe to obtain all his parts initially, but at the most I've only needed to add a D polarity to him. He works great against all factions, not just infested. I'm never at a disadvantage with him at all levels of play, hek it's normally me reviving other teamates in the T4 Survivals and Defenses. 

 

As unoriginal as it is, an Efficiency build really helps against anything outside of a defense mission, combo'd with a more aggressive/proactive playstyle.

 

The only thing I'd say that needs changed, after maining him for a little over a year, is as Paradoxbomb said, Tesla needs a forced lightning proc and the Bounce could use some kind of 'oomph'  now that the new directional air moves are available. 

 

 

Bastille and Vortex should be left alone. 

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 Wave 15...

As i said...you dont even need a weapon to do that with vauban...

just try wave 30+, when one vortex or bastille is not long enough for you to kill them all.

At that point there are more infested than bastille can hold, and they will clutter at the corners, making it even harder for you to kill all of them in time.

At that point you will run out of energy or ammo, since bastille costs 75 and Vortex 100, so you want to keep the cost as low as possible, and to do that, you need to sacrifice other things, and that will cause a chain reaction.

Without Fleeting Expertise, just Streamline, each Vortex would cost 70 Energy, so around 3 Bubbles every 20 seconds. Is that possible? Nope. Spamming Bastille would be even worse...

have u ever heard about bastille city each player spams bastille as much as he can then we all go penta or orthos (since they have great explosion radius or range) them  and the spammed bastille city nvr reaches its cap as we have at least each player can cast at least if noob 2 times 4=8  each holds 12 enemies 8 times 12 is 96! thats alot of infested,and with ur addintions to ur vauban imagine what can an expeirienced team of vaubans would do. and while we are not reading the news papre we are sawing them up so give it a try it nvr fails even in t4 defense.

 

EDIT : wich lasts each 30 seconds in 30+ waves so much energy gets dropped  we can spam the bastille city in 30+waves only.

Edited by ziyax
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Without Intensify, Bastille can only hold 12 targets for 75 Energy - i would be so happy if there would be JUST 12 enemies storming towards the pod.

 

Then lay down more Bastilles. I don't mean to be dense, but you're acting like you can't lay more than one Bastille down at a time. See ziyax's post above mine.

 

Bastille costs around 20 energy if you mod for Efficiency, by the way. It's very cheap to cast.

 

Bastille + Vortex are harder to use on Grineer/Corpus/Void, but doing so isn't a lost cause for Vauban. You have to be proactive with your traps and keep them up for as long as possible. Frost will eventually have to spam Globes on the pod every three seconds when enemies become strong enough to one shot it, but Vauban's abilities have no such restrictions. As a frawback, they don't stop enemy fire (and explosions still go through Snowglobe for whatever reason anyway).

 

-

 

I agree with Paradoxbomb's suggestion of forced Electric proc on Teslas. Maybe Bounce can also have a wider AoE, but only on enemies?

Edited by Noble_Cactus
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I never thought I'd see the day people were so bad at Vauban they thought he needed a buff.

 

Vauban is the only Warframe who can put a giant pause button on EVERY ENEMY IN THE MAP for an obscene amount of time while he casually strides along.

 

His only lackluster skill is bounce, and that's because its pretty clear bounce is just so he can get to high areas away from danger.

That's why he has so little shields and armor.

 

It's the same reason Loki does. They are squishy because they have insane utility.

 

Vauban

- can put giant forcefields that freeze enemies for 30+ seconds in an aoe and cost almost no energy

- can suck all enemies in a room into 1 spot where again, they are paused and cannot fight back

- can turn any wall or teammate into grapes that do 300 damage each that IGNORES ARMOR.

 

Loki

- can make every enemy in a room lose the ability to use their weapons

- can be invisible

- can swap places with a large enemy putting it far from his teammates or in a spot it cant hurt anyone

 

 

These are why these frames are made of tissue paper.

It's because they have something no other frames have: LONG CONTINUED LOCKDOWN.

 

If you aren't playing Vauban with your finger always cautiously over the bastille/vortex button you are doing it wrong.

You can put Vauban in ANY map type and as long as his reaction time is good, he will not die.

I don't even HAVE good reaction time and I've had Vauban work in 50+ minute Grineer survivals.

 

He is not in need of a buff or a rework.

He has 1 job and he does it better than all the other frames combined.

 

 

 

 

GET.

GOOD.

Edited by Kruglov
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Also:

 Wave 15...

As i said...you dont even need a weapon to do that with vauban...

just try wave 30+, when one vortex or bastille is not long enough for you to kill them all.

At that point there are more infested than bastille can hold, and they will clutter at the corners, making it even harder for you to kill all of them in time.

At that point you will run out of energy or ammo, since bastille costs 75 and Vortex 100, so you want to keep the cost as low as possible, and to do that, you need to sacrifice other things, and that will cause a chain reaction.

Without Fleeting Expertise, just Streamline, each Vortex would cost 70 Energy, so around 3 Bubbles every 20 seconds. Is that possible? Nope. Spamming Bastille would be even worse...

Maybe before, but certainly not now with the buffs to ancients. Weapons won't carry you nearly as far. 

If you're running out of ammo, that's not a Vauban problem, that's a general problem most frames will find, so I doubt your 30 is a good benchmark either. At wave 10 you have all the different Ancients and Eximi coming at you, surviving five waves of that is more than proof that a major rework is not needed and that the frame is mostly balanced. He's plenty powerful, maybe not as before and certainly not without the need for some adjustments, but Bastille and Vortex are amazing skills as they are, they fill a niche that no other skill hits, ranged, sustained CC. The next best contender for that role is hydroid, who is a very weak and inconsistent second by comparison. 

And in a team play Vauban's skills just become exponentially more powerful, he is weakest when he is solo.

I never said without fleeting expertise, I said without maxing it. You only need it at 30 or 40% with streamline, more than enough to get a 28-18% increase duration without sacrificing range. 

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Actually, he is my most used frame with around 200h or so (cant look right now)

The idea with the forced lightning proc would indeed be enough to make his offense usable.

again AS I SAID

he is fine at what he does. it doesnt matter HOW you mod him, as long as you can keep his pause-button up. He can do THAT ONE THING.

Bastille or Vortex. Pause. Nothing more.

Thats the whole point.
No one, NO ONE uses Tesla for Offense anymore.
A forced Lightning proc? Hell, i would throw that thing as if there would be no tomorrow. My Kubrow would look like a hedgehog.

 

30% are barely enough for higher defenses. I cant even count how often i have lost because the corpses were too lazy to drop energy...not just with Vauban, with Frost the same. The thing is, that neither Bastille nor Vortex have a high range or duration from the beginning, so each corrupted mod has a very strong negative effect on them. But does that matter? no. I ran a long time with minimum range because vortex was not affected. Now it is, was that a buff? Not in my opinion.
The reason why i run with max efficiency on all my frames is simple. Efficiency > Duration.
Easy math. Maxed Efficiency reduces the cost by 75%. Duration Increases the time by around 160%.

Efficiency: 2 Mods, Streamline and Fleeting Expertise. 2 Additional Mods needed to negate the -60% Duration.

Effect: -75% Power Cost, -2% Duration (lets ignore that), so 4 Ability uses per 100 Energy with nearly the same duration.
Result: ~400% Upkeep time for the same amount of energy (4 Uses * 100% Time)
Duration: 3 Mods, no negative effect for efficiency, so lets make that 4 mods too (+30% Efficiency).

Effect: +160% Duration, -30% Power Cost, so 1.4 Ability uses per 100 Energy
Result: ~224% Upkeep time for the same amount of energy (1.4 Uses * 160% Time)

 

4 Slots to Maximise Duration, or 4 Slots to Maximise Efficiency? Obviously Efficiency.

Sure, you wont need to Maximise Duration and sacrifice range then too. But as i literaly said multiple times now, it doesnt matter anyways, since all vauban does is "press the pause button"
Im just lazy, and Narrow Minded with +99% Duration saves another big portion of my energy.
 

So, again: HE IS FINE IN WHAT HE CAN DO. HE JUST CANT DO MUCH - thats the point.
Other Defensive Frames can be used in another way aswell.

Puddle-Droid can Hentai the Grineer (eww)

Quake-She can buff the team or shove away stuff that is near the pod.
Snowglober can still play a snowballfight while keeping his shield up all the time
Vauban has just his pause button and malfunctioning light bulbs.

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just a simple question.

I dont want to start a topic about "but he is good" or "you use him wrong", thats not the point.

All i want to know is, are there plans to look into him?

 

 

But he is good. You use him wrong.

 

Seriously.

 

I frequently top damage with him.  His damage comes from weapons - they are used to maximum efficiency because all his targets are immobile.

 

Drop two Bastille's on top of one another and have double the number of affected targets :)

 

Throw 5 or 10 Tesla grenades on the ground and watch the carnage (up to like level 25 or so anyway)

 

Seriously, he's good. You're using him wrong.

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In ODD I just have to use one Bastille because my brother plays Nova and uses ulti. So the monsters won't have time to run to the pod before they die. This combo works just fine to wave 40 where I leave because ODD drops are utterly broken.

 

So Vauban is awesome vs infested but poorly against other factions.

On Sechura you can just use one Vortex to deal with all the infested and use an explosive weapon. Or have high puncture ability.

 

So the only lackluster is his first two abilities that I never ever use. But that goes for most other Warframes in the game.

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Actually, he is my most used frame with around 200h or so (cant look right now)

The idea with the forced lightning proc would indeed be enough to make his offense usable.

again AS I SAID

he is fine at what he does. it doesnt matter HOW you mod him, as long as you can keep his pause-button up. He can do THAT ONE THING.

Bastille or Vortex. Pause. Nothing more.

Thats the whole point.

No one, NO ONE uses Tesla for Offense anymore.

A forced Lightning proc? Hell, i would throw that thing as if there would be no tomorrow. My Kubrow would look like a hedgehog.

 

30% are barely enough for higher defenses. I cant even count how often i have lost because the corpses were too lazy to drop energy...not just with Vauban, with Frost the same. The thing is, that neither Bastille nor Vortex have a high range or duration from the beginning, so each corrupted mod has a very strong negative effect on them. But does that matter? no. I ran a long time with minimum range because vortex was not affected. Now it is, was that a buff? Not in my opinion.

The reason why i run with max efficiency on all my frames is simple. Efficiency > Duration.

Easy math. Maxed Efficiency reduces the cost by 75%. Duration Increases the time by around 160%.

Efficiency: 2 Mods, Streamline and Fleeting Expertise. 2 Additional Mods needed to negate the -60% Duration.

Effect: -75% Power Cost, -2% Duration (lets ignore that), so 4 Ability uses per 100 Energy with nearly the same duration.

Result: ~400% Upkeep time for the same amount of energy (4 Uses * 100% Time)

Duration: 3 Mods, no negative effect for efficiency, so lets make that 4 mods too (+30% Efficiency).

Effect: +160% Duration, -30% Power Cost, so 1.4 Ability uses per 100 Energy

Result: ~224% Upkeep time for the same amount of energy (1.4 Uses * 160% Time)

 

4 Slots to Maximise Duration, or 4 Slots to Maximise Efficiency? Obviously Efficiency.

Sure, you wont need to Maximise Duration and sacrifice range then too. But as i literaly said multiple times now, it doesnt matter anyways, since all vauban does is "press the pause button"

Im just lazy, and Narrow Minded with +99% Duration saves another big portion of my energy.

 

So, again: HE IS FINE IN WHAT HE CAN DO. HE JUST CANT DO MUCH - thats the point.

Other Defensive Frames can be used in another way aswell.

Puddle-Droid can Hentai the Grineer (eww)

Quake-She can buff the team or shove away stuff that is near the pod.

Snowglober can still play a snowballfight while keeping his shield up all the time

Vauban has just his pause button and malfunctioning light bulbs.

 

He can't do much?

 

I don't know what frame you're playing, but Vauban can do plenty that other frames cannot. Hydroid can puddle... lol. That's a weak argument, because puddle is garbage outside of letting Hydroid restore his shields and wait out DoTs. Tentacles also prevents your teammates from attacking captured enemies. Guess what Vortex and Bastille do? Let your teammates attack captured enemies!

 

Banshee has to hunker down in one spot to Quake. Teammates also have to drop restores for her so she can keep the ability going. It's good, but it doesn't afford the level of control that Vauban's abilities do. Sonic Boom is good reactive CC but it is in no way nearly as effective at keeping enemies away as Bastille and Vortex. Teamwide buffs are a moot point in this discussion because we are talking about CC capabilities, even if they make Banshee a more well-rounded character.

 

What is snowballfight? Surely you don't mean Freeze, because that ability is garbage too. Snowglobe is top notch at what it does but it's not as simple as just dropping the globe at higher levels and letting it do its thing. Snowglobes also prevent teammates shooting through choke points. Bastille and Vortex allow you to do just that.

 

You underestimate the power of "just having a pause button." That's an incredibly important ability to have in a game about farming crowds of mindless mobs, and it's the reason why Vauban is one of the best frames in the game.

 

If you're having trouble balancing Duration and Range, try using a R7 or R8 Narrow Minded with Stretch and Continuity/Constitution.

 

-

 

By the way, we are reading your posts. We just don't bother responding to all of it because 75% of what you're saying is inarguable drivel.

Edited by Noble_Cactus
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