Stealth 2.0?

[xMilkychocolate]

     I know that this question was asked at a dev stream awhile ago, but it was never fully addressed. I like warframe for a variety of reasons. It has alot of variety, customization, and additions that keep my attention. But one of the things that I full has been ignored (if not fully put off) is stealth play. The frame work is there. Alarm system, mods to make weapons silent, weapons iniately silenced, stealth attacks (which also need a large buff as anything over 25 will shrug off a stealth attack like it's nothing) abilities to keep your enemy unaware that you are there). For mission types like spy, capture, sabotage, and deception taking a stealthy apporach is a viable option. The problem is, the rewards for playing not only those missions types, but playing stealthy in general leaves much to be desired. It's more profitable to just run and gun through levels as fast as possible as a rhino which is why everyone calls him the noob frame because in warframe realistically there's no perks to playing any other way. So I propose large changes be made to the stealth system to allow for players to be able to fulfill the actual premise of being a 'Ninja' in warframe. I have listed them below tell me what you think!

 

1st Change:

Changes to invisibility (loki and ash)

Make un-silenced weapons take you out of invisibility

 

I feel that invisibility should be used solely for the purpose of stealth combat or a quick escape. At it's current state it's a little broken in the way if you shoot an unsilenced weapon while invisible enemies will still hide like being in combat (which makes no sense) and/or will sound the alarm. Why not change invisibility to where if you use an unsilenced weapon while invisible it immediately takes you out of it. It would make more sense, add more technique to the ability other than "oh i'll play loki and stay invisible the whole game to take no damage while changing nothing else". 

 

2nd Change

Changes to rewards and drop tables

Make enemies that are unalerted when killed have higher chance to drop loot. And give a significant xp bonus for kills, and xp bonus/syndicate points/money at the end of the match for leaving undetected. 

 

I feel no explanation should be needed for this change, but I will elaborate anyway.

In matches like defense, survival, excavation where there is hundreds of enemies the drop tables and match rewards as they currently are make sense. Since this game is pretty much all about looting, at the current state those modes are the only ones that realistically get played (unless forced to otherwise by an event or alert). So why not add loot and xp potential only possible to get on spy, capture, sabotage, and deception? So I propose these rewards:

1. Increase enemy drop chances by 50% when killed while unalerted. 

2. Increase XP gained from killing unalerted enemies by 150% (as these mission types have a significantly smaller amount of enemys on the map)

3. Depending on difficulty of mission, add a flat XP bonus given to tenno who make it through levels completely undetected.

4. Depending on difficulty of mission, add 100% more syndicate standing gained from completing missions undetected. 

I feel adding this would once again make spy, capture, sabotage, and deception missions fun to play and have different advantages. Even add Lotus saying a blurb at the beginning saying "Tenno, if you can complete this mission while remaining undetected, you will be rewarded greater for your skill". 

 

3rd Change

Stealth attack damage

Increase stealth attacks to boost damage 1000% And temporarily make you visible while peforming attack

 

Now at first glance that may seem like a very large and OP calling amount to add for a single attack. But lets look at the facts. 

1. Stealth attacks take about 2-3 seconds to perform. Which in a large group of enemies, stealth attacking your way through everyone doesn't make too much sense to say at the least. 

2. I added to make you visible while peforming the attack for 2 reaons. To make it so you can't just stealth attack 1 guard in the whole group and some how none of his buddies notice his throat getting slit. And also to prevent stacking the large damage bonus you would already get combining it with Loki or Ash's invisiblity bonus. 

3. Lets do the math. Take the highest base damage weapon. Dragon Nikana:

It does 85 overall physical damage without any mods. 

1000% or 10 times the damage would equal 850 damage. If you added Pressure point 120% damage increase and Spoiled Strike 100% increase. That would equal 2720 damage.

Ok well then you might say well you're not only going to use those mods. Well I did the math for that as well.

To get the highest possible damage bonus for the dragon Nikana you add 

 

Pressure point: 120% base Damage

Spoiled Strike: 100% base Damage

Buzz Kill: 120% Slash Damage

Jagged Edge: 90% Slash Damage

Rending strike: 60% Slash 80% Puncture

Fever Strike: 90% Poison Damage

Molten Impact: 90% Fire Damage

Volcanic Edge: 60% Fire Damage

All of that adds up to 1570.8 Base damage for the Dragon Nikana the largest base damage melee weapon fully modded. 

Now if you times that by 10 you get 15,708 stealth attack damage before resistances. For anyone that's experienced, that's not an insanely high amount of damage for a single unit attack that takes 2-3 seconds to execute. (I can use the dread or paris prime charged shot and get 50k damage from a red crit.)

Summary 1000% is NOT too high of a damage bonus to add to stealth attacks. I even think having mods to increase the mutiplier like there is for finishers should be added as well. 

 

From the numbers, and invisibility nerf I think all of these changes would fully balance out. It's 3 simple changes (7 if you include the details). I challenge you to prove me wrong and I want to know why. Implementing a change like this would expand the player base for warframe so much more and add even more variety and style of play changes that I think would be much appreciated by the community. As an added bonus it would be even greater if Primed chamber was made available after these updates were added as well, as snipers stealth weapons as well. If you have any comments or variables you think should be added as well I'd love to hear them!

 

[Rukkhadevata.]

1.**** no

 

2.yeah

 

3.yeah

[BoomToon43]

1.**** no

 

2.yeah

 

3.yeah

^^^^^^^

[Nah_NotReally]

 

 

1st Change:

Changes to invisibility (loki and ash)

Make un-silenced weapons take you out of invisibility

 

I feel that invisibility should be used solely for the purpose of stealth combat or a quick escape. At it's current state it's a little broken in the way if you shoot an unsilenced weapon while invisible enemies will still hide like being in combat (which makes no sense) and/or will sound the alarm. Why not change invisibility to where if you use an unsilenced weapon while invisible it immediately takes you out of it. It would make more sense, add more technique to the ability other than "oh i'll play loki and stay invisible the whole game to take no damage while changing nothing else". 

 

 

I like everything. As a player who uses Loki more than any other frame, I can say I'd be fine with this change, But Invisibility is not the same as stealth.

 

Shade's cloak breaks when you attack because it puts you in stealth mode then you interrupt the status of being stealthy. Invisibility shouldn't break because of the use of a loud weapon because it's not an act of being stealthy, just a really good trait to have if you want to be. Imagine The Invisible Man suddenly becoming visible because he spoke; It would really throw everything off because it doesn't make sense.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

1st Change:

Changes to invisibility (loki and ash)

Make un-silenced weapons take you out of invisibility

 

I feel that invisibility should be used solely for the purpose of stealth combat or a quick escape. At it's current state it's a little broken in the way if you shoot an unsilenced weapon while invisible enemies will still hide like being in combat (which makes no sense) and/or will sound the alarm. Why not change invisibility to where if you use an unsilenced weapon while invisible it immediately takes you out of it. It would make more sense, add more technique to the ability other than "oh i'll play loki and stay invisible the whole game to take no damage while changing nothing else". 

 

I'm not crazy about this, as it seems like it discourages using both gun and blade to full effect. I don't like any of the powers that affect one and not the other. That being said, maybe enemies could be better at targeting players based on muzzle flash, so if a player doesn't move around a lot while firing his/her rifle s/he gets hit more. I believe this is already in the game in some form but maybe it could be improved a bit.

 

As for 2, absolutely.

 

With 3, why don't we just make a true stealth kill an auto kill on enemies?

[Selpar]

I've said this before but melee stealth attacks need to be fatal. No amount of damage buffing the attack will ever satisfy me, if an enemy lives though it and alerts everyone else I'm there then the stealth attack has failed to do the one thing it is designed to do. A melee stealth attack needs to be that tool you can always rely on because if it doesn't kill it ruins your stealth run in the most dissatisfying way possible.

[DSpite]

Your option 2? Seriously?

 

I'd run perma-invisi Loki farming expeditions just for loot.

 

And so will everyone else.

[NeoTachyon]

1st Change:

Why not change invisibility to where if you use an unsilenced weapon while invisible it immediately takes you out of it.

 

Because:

a)it doesn't make any sense , if the sound of your weapon interrupts invisibility then so should the sound of any other weapon around you, thus rendering the ability useless in most occasions.

b)forcing people to equip a specific mod(especially a non frame related one) in oder to be able to use an ability effectively is a bad idea.

 

 

2nd Change

 

Basically make stealth the optimal way for those types of missions.How is that even remotely fair for people who don't like the stealth approach or for frames that are not specialized in stealth?

Forcing an optimal way of playing through any type of mission doesn't exactly increase variety  ,in those specific missions at least.

Now all that applies given the values above, which can be tweaked for balance.

Lastly the only way such a change would make sense (at least from my point of view), would be in oder to provide an alternative for farming loot/exp to those who are not fond of endless modes, however forcing it through a very specific playstyle doesn't really sit right with me.

 

3rd Change

 

1)2-3 seconds?Unless we are talking about QTE type animations , they take just as much time as a normal attack.Also why it doesn't make sense to attack a group of enemies ,it's not like they can see you or pinpoint your location through sound (which would be the case if you were using a ragned weapon without a silencer mechanism).

2)You can accomplish that by giving the enemies detectors, there is no reason to artificially gimp the ability.

 

Generally your first and third changes , would gimp invisibility in endless missions since it's only usefull for escape purposes,thus limiting the build options for both loki and ash in those missions.

Edited November 5, 2014 by NeoTachyon

[RustyNaps]

Stealth is already very good. When ever I start a new warframe and weapons I always stealth because stealthing helps me negate a load of damage. I've taken my unranked loki to ceres. Stealthed through it without a scratch.

 

Stealth doesn't need extra rewards (but I would like a tiny XP boost and credit boost for doing so), what stealth needs is practicality. Even though it's good for avoiding damage it's very clunky and limited. All you can do is crouch and hide behind crates. Whoopty doo. I need something like Wall hugging, Wall scaling, more vents, tip toeing (which would basically be holding crouch then toggling sprint for a faster crawl), catwalking/tightroping (for those places with tight surfaces), LEDGE GRABBING and army crawling (to avoid sight when close to a grineers line of sight then preforming a finisher). 

 

Stuff like that is what stealth needs.

Edited November 5, 2014 by RustyNaps

[unknow99]

Stealth is already very good. When ever I start a new warframe and weapons I always stealth because stealthing helps me negate a load of damage. I've taken my unranked loki to ceres. Stealthed through it without a scratch.

 

Stealth doesn't need extra rewards (but I would like a tiny XP boost and credit boost for doing so), what stealth needs is practicality. Even though it's good for avoiding damage it's very clunky and limited. All you can do is crouch and hide behind crates. Whoopty doo. I need something like Wall hugging, Wall scaling, more vents, tip toeing (which would basically be holding crouch then toggling sprint for a faster crawl), catwalking/tightroping (for those places with tight surfaces), LEDGE GRABBING and army crawling (to avoid sight when close to a grineers line of sight then preforming a finisher). 

 

Stuff like that is what stealth needs.

Agree with 80%. Stealth is good but reaaally needs attention!! The other problem is, it isn't very rewarding because it's way harder than run & gun through a mission, meanwhile not setting any alarm (or not killing anyone for the toughest) only brings self satisfaction...

 

Ledge grabbing?Tightroping??Wall scaling??! YES.

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

1st Change:

Why not change invisibility to where if you use an unsilenced weapon while invisible it immediately takes you out of it.

 

Because:

a)it doesn't make any sense , if the sound of your weapon interrupts invisibility then so should the sound of any other weapon around you, thus rendering the ability useless in most occasions.

b)forcing people to equip a specific mod(especially a non frame related one) in oder to be able to use an ability effectively is a bad idea.

 

 

2nd Change

 

Basically make stealth the optimal way for those types of missions.How is that even remotely fair for people who don't like the stealth approach or for frames that are not specialized in stealth?

Forcing an optimal way of playing through any type of mission doesn't exactly increase variety  ,in those specific missions at least.

Now all that applies given the values above, which can be tweaked for balance.

Lastly the only way such a change would make sense (at least from my point of view), would be in oder to provide an alternative for farming loot/exp to those who are not fond of endless modes, however forcing it through a very specific playstyle doesn't really sit right with me.

 

3rd Change

 

1)2-3 seconds?Unless we are talking about QTE type animations , they take just as much time as a normal attack.Also why it doesn't make sense to attack a group of enemies ,it's not like they can see you or pinpoint your location through sound (which would be the case if you were using a ragned weapon without a silencer mechanism).

2)You can accomplish that by giving the enemies detectors, there is no reason to artificially gimp the ability.

 

Generally your first and third changes , would gimp invisibility in endless missions since it's only usefull for escape purposes,thus limiting the build options for both loki and ash in those missions.

 

1.

a) It could be easily explained lore wise. They just have to say that any projectiles moving through a stealth field at a high velocity would disrupt it without modifications. which would explain how you can not shoot out but can receive fire(since incoming fire is diffused in your shields).

b) It wouldn't hinder the effectiveness of the ability for pure stealth players as it can still be used to avoid detection while in the enemies line of sight. The mod is only necessary if you want to neutralize a target without utilizing a stealth kill. Suppressor is a pretty common mod anyways and it takes no time at all to get it to max when compared to most other mods.

 

2. Making stealth the optimal way of accomplishing stealth missions isn't really that bad. After all they are stealth missions first and foremost encouraging stealth basically comes with the territory. It's not that these missions definitely need to require stealth in order to complete. they just need to reward stealth gameplay to the same degree that survival and defense reward more aggressive players.

 

I mostly agree with you on 3. Instead of gimping invisibility enemies should just be able to detrmine the player's location through sound and base their attacks on the players last known position. And in regards to your last statement you have to keep in mind that Ash and Loki are stealth Warframes. Which means that they absolutely SHOULD have and emphasis on escape over aggression.

Edited November 8, 2014 by (PS4)KaxMcc

[(PSN)KaxMcc]

Guys i wanna ask u even when stealth will be improved, u will need get very discplined and focused guys to make mission purely stealth.Most of players goes rambo and no one cares about the stealth.that is sad.As i know ninja was silent assasins.But space ninjas are just more or less than rambo with big gun and tons of powers:D

 

It just needs to be easier to find like-minded players to play with. We should be able to create groups amongst the community that can be entered without having to make a full commitment like clans. That way we could have like a Stealth Tennos group, A group for speed runs, noob friendly groups, grinding groups and so on.

[vaugahn]

Guys i wanna ask u even when stealth will be improved, u will need get very discplined and focused guys to make mission purely stealth.Most of players goes rambo and no one cares about the stealth.that is sad.As i know ninja was silent assasins.But space ninjas are just more or less than rambo with big gun and tons of powers:D

 

I can't see this game ever suddenly turning into Metal Gear Solid. Even if stealth mechanics are introduced, it won't change the way the game is played. Our moveset is simply too aggression-focused for such a radical shift to occur.