I Feel This Is The Best Time To Ask For Energy Ammo Pool.

[fatpig84]

Honestly all launchers should be capped at 50 ammo.

Only torid 60 because of it's nature as a gas weapon.

 

But again this is about regenerating ammo.

[Deviantis]

To be sure: If there's 20 ammo boxes sitting on the ground, and I'm at 0 ammo, in your world, I cannot walk over those boxes and instantly reach max ammo?

 

If not: This sounds unpleasant.

If so: The level of imbalance that's presenting is worrisome.

Running out of ammo is running out of ammo; however, the recharging ammo pool should give you more up-time than other Tenno with a similar conventional weapon.

 

What I'm going for is a difference in play style with energy weapons.

 

What I think you're concerned about is about the details of the system, such as Amprex vs Quanta ammo efficiency, in which case I think DE would be better suited to figuring out what the ammo recharge rate would be to achieve a happy medium between the two.

[HAYABU5A]

this actually makes alot of sense because energy weapons dont use ammo like ballistic weapons, thats one of the main advantages

instead u have a energy source or some sort of catalyst material that needs to be replaced or recharged 

 

percentage of charge instead of ammo would be interesting with some sort of overheat mechanic

the more you overheat your weapon it depletes your max energy pool, if you control your heat build up your energy capacitor is more economic 

[Llyssa]

Running out of ammo is running out of ammo; however, the recharging ammo pool should give you more up-time than other Tenno with a similar conventional weapon.

 

What I'm going for is a difference in play style with energy weapons.

 

What I think you're concerned about is about the details of the system, such as Amprex vs Quanta ammo efficiency, in which case I think DE would be better suited to figuring out what the ammo recharge rate would be to achieve a happy medium between the two.

TL;DR: "I have no idea what I'm talking about, I just think it would be cool"

[Kyte]

To be sure: If there's 20 ammo boxes sitting on the ground, and I'm at 0 ammo, in your world, I cannot walk over those boxes and instantly reach max ammo?

 

If not: This sounds unpleasant.

If so: The level of imbalance that's presenting is worrisome.

 

How did you reach this conclusion? The idea's ammo regens on its own, there's nothing about blocking pickups.

[jjpdn]

BEST IDEA EVER.

 

Energy Weapons: WE WILL BE BACK.

Edited November 8, 2014 by jjpdn

[Deviantis]

TL;DR: "I have no idea what I'm talking about, I just think it would be cool"

The idea is I want energy weapons to be different. It's called an idea because it's...well, an idea. Not sure what you were expecting. Spreadsheets? Presentations? I don't have time to make such things.

[Llyssa]

How did you reach this conclusion? The idea's ammo regens on its own, there's nothing about blocking pickups.

It's a question, not a conclusion, but:

 

If a weapon auto-reloads, why would it need to pick up ammo? Especially something like the opticor?

 

If it cannot pick up ammo, the new balance of the weapon is based upon how fast it auto-reloads itself.

If it can pick up ammo, the new balance of the weapon has to take in to account that it has far more potential ammo than other weapons, and, thus, needs to be nerfed accordingly, in order to bring it in to balance with other weapons that can pick up ammo, but do not *also* have the benefit of auto-reload.

 

So, which poison is best?

[Kyte]

Except it's not really a balance issue given how common ammo is?

The Lanka would be the one with the rarest ammo, but it's also a sniper-type weapon, meaning its ammo consumption is super low in first place.

And then there's ammo restores and such. Potential ammo is pretty much "infinite", really.

 

Frankly, weapons aren't really balanced over how easy it is to run out of ammo (because even with ammo guzzlers like Amprex you can remain over 50% if you keep collecting pickups) as it is the downtime from reloads/picking up more ammo.

 

The net effect would be pretty small, more of a flavor/convenience thing than anything.

 

Plus, the Archwing guns already showed it's not a major problem to make weapons with regenerating ammo.

Edited November 8, 2014 by Kyte

[Corvid]

Why not have the ammo count be a percentage, with weapons having different "drain values"? Weapons like the Opticor and Lanka would take more than 10% to fire, while sustained-fire weapons like the Supra and Dera would be decimals.

[Llyssa]

Except it's not really a balance issue given how common ammo is?

The Lanka would be the one with the rarest ammo, but it's also a sniper-type weapon, meaning its ammo consumption is super low in first place.

And then there's ammo restores and such. Potential ammo is pretty much "infinite", really.

 

Frankly, weapons aren't really balanced over how easy it is to run out of ammo (because even with ammo guzzlers like Amprex you can remain over 50% if you keep collecting pickups) as it is the downtime from reloads/picking up more ammo.

 

The net effect would be pretty small, more of a flavor/convenience thing than anything.

 

Plus, the Archwing guns already showed it's not a major problem to make weapons with regenerating ammo.

The weapons are being pushed towards a balance of how easy it is to run out of ammo. It's a slow process, but it's being implimented. The launcher over-nerf was step one. However, at the current state, yes, ammo isn't usually an issue. Ergo, there's no point to this.

 

As far as archwing is concerned, there are only two available guns, and both are balanced around that type of gameplay, including the reloading ammo.

 

There are currently 56 primary weapons and 51 secondaries, only a small fraction of which are energy-based, so this would only apply to them.

 

If they get the added bonus of infinite ammo, then the non-energy weapons that don't have the infinite ammo bonus have to have something to make up for this. It's inherently unfair to have them both need ammo AND be on-par with things that don't need ammo. If my twin wraith vipers can run out of ammo completely in 8 seconds, there has to be something to compensate to make it WORTH running out of ammo in 8 seconds, and if I could've taken an energy weapon instead(or had this considered an energy weapon!) then it wouldn't be a problem.

 

So, our options are: 1: make everything an auto-reloading weapon. 2: buff all of the non-energy weapons massively while adding auto-reload to energy weapons.. 3: nerf all of the energy weapons while adding auto-reload. 4. do nothing.

 

I'm very much in favor #4, as #1 would most certainly change the way the game is designed completely, #2 is an unrealistic amount of work that would cause needless power creep, and #3 doesn't seem worth the tradeoff.

 

I suppose if they added a specialty mod for people who want this, then it would be fine. Give people the option if they REALLY want it. It should not, however, be a regular feature.

[Mastikator2]

There are currently 56 primary weapons and 51 secondaries, only a small fraction of which are energy-based, so this would only apply to them.

58 Primaries

33 use rifle ammo

10 use shotgun ammo

15 use sniper ammo

 

51 secondaries

49 use pistol ammo

2 use sniper ammo

 

Under my suggested regime

21 Rifle

9 shotgun

10 sniper

41 pistol

13 fieldron

4 detonite

8 biomass

 

The fieldron battery ammo type would outnumber sniper and shotgun types. The four megaOP weapons (Ogris, Penta, Angstrum, Castanas) could easily be regulated without nerfing by making them detonite bombs. The 8 using biomass could use regenerating ammo type if the ammo economy becomes too saturated and it would help balance them as well by regulating how fast it regenerates.

[Llyssa]

58 Primaries

33 use rifle ammo

10 use shotgun ammo

15 use sniper ammo

 

51 secondaries

49 use pistol ammo

2 use sniper ammo

 

Under my suggested regime

21 Rifle

9 shotgun

10 sniper

41 pistol

13 fieldron

4 detonite

8 biomass

 

The fieldron battery ammo type would outnumber sniper and shotgun types. The four megaOP weapons (Ogris, Penta, Angstrum, Castanas) could easily be regulated without nerfing by making them detonite bombs. The 8 using biomass could use regenerating ammo type if the ammo economy becomes too saturated and it would help balance them as well by regulating how fast it regenerates.

Um, okay, well, for starters, it would be nice if ogris, penta, angstrum, and castanas were "megaOP" to make up for the crappy ammo they have now, so I guess I could get behind that change. Definitely need a buff there.

 

Beyond that: You aren't making any sense at all. What are you talking about?

[Mastikator2]

Have you tried Ogris, Penta, Angstrum or Castanas in their current state? If you weren't overwhelmed by how extremely powerful they still are then I don't know what you're talking about.

 

And what am I "on about"?

This: "only a small fraction of which are energy-based" (your quote, that I quoted)

13 are energy based. That's more than snipers and shotguns.

 

A small fraction would be bomb based, only 4 out of 100+ primary & secondary are bomb based, that's like 4%, that is a small fraction.

[Llyssa]

Have you tried Ogris, Penta, Angstrum or Castanas in their current state? If you weren't overwhelmed by how extremely powerful they still are then I don't know what you're talking about.

 

And what am I "on about"?

This: "only a small fraction of which are energy-based" (your quote, that I quoted)

13 are energy based. That's more than snipers and shotguns.

 

A small fraction would be bomb based, only 4 out of 100+ primary & secondary are bomb based, that's like 4%, that is a small fraction.

1. 13 out of 107 is a "small fraction". About 12%. As for comparisons to snipers and shotguns, you co-opt some from each group, so that's silly. There's more snipers right now than there are "energy" under your "suggested regime".

2. Your "suggested regime" doesn't explain anything at all. It's an exceedingly vague concept that makes zero sense as presented. You didn't explain anything at all, just made up really arbitrary group names and slapped some weapons in to them.

[Mastikator2]

1. Still more than shotguns currently are. 10 out of 107. Do shotguns need to justify their existence for the sake of shotgun ammo?

2. Yes, fieldron battery for an energy based weapon that uses fieldrons in its production is totally arbitrary. Except no, using bullets for an energy weapon is arbitrary. Using sniper ammo for rocket launchers is arbitrary.

[Briar_Wolf]

So I guess the question is would we want to copy over the Archwing ammo system or implement an Overheat mechanic IE. the first Mass Effect or Hawken? One system just gives infinite ammo, while the other, while also giving infinite ammo, would reward the player for managing how much they fire. Do we want to just empty the magazine in the Supra and wait a few seconds to get it all back, or do we want to make firing the Supra for too long punish us with a longer than average downtime when the weapon overheats?

 

Personally I would rather go for the latter, mainly due to fond memories of back when I played Hawken. 

[Kyte]

Adding more ammo types is a terrible idea.

 

Like I said before, the level of ammo drops and the presence of restores means a balance based on finite ammo does not truly exist. Even the launchers didn't really get hurt by the ammo change. You don't truly "run out" of ammo, you just have some downtime where you have to gather pickups or pop a restore. This downtime can be avoided simply by regularly picking up ammo in between shots.

 

The true balancer is reload speed. Ammo is but a detail.

 

Regenerating ammo would simply enable another way to avoid the downtime, so long as the regeneration rate does not exceed the ammo consumption rate.

[Llyssa]

1. Still more than shotguns currently are. 10 out of 107. Do shotguns need to justify their existence for the sake of shotgun ammo?

2. Yes, fieldron battery for an energy based weapon that uses fieldrons in its production is totally arbitrary. Except no, using bullets for an energy weapon is arbitrary. Using sniper ammo for rocket launchers is arbitrary.

Okay, let me try to explain it better:

 

There is, no where in all of existence, outside of your head, any explanation, anywhere, at all, whatsoever, for what "fieldron battey" means, besides "madeup term that uses a word already existing in warframe".

 

You could use "dfsaojqpewrqewdf" instead of "fieldron battery", and it would make just as much sense. I don't know what you *think* you described, but it's just meaningless gibberish.

[Llyssa]

Adding more ammo types is a terrible idea.

 

Like I said before, the level of ammo drops and the presence of restores means a balance based on finite ammo does not truly exist. Even the launchers didn't really get hurt by the ammo change. You don't truly "run out" of ammo, you just have some downtime where you have to gather pickups or pop a restore. This downtime can be avoided simply by regularly picking up ammo in between shots.

 

The true balancer is reload speed. Ammo is but a detail.

 

Regenerating ammo would simply enable another way to avoid the downtime, so long as the regeneration rate does not exceed the ammo consumption rate.

You've never actually used a launcher. It shows.

[Deviantis]

this actually makes alot of sense because energy weapons dont use ammo like ballistic weapons, thats one of the main advantages

instead u have a energy source or some sort of catalyst material that needs to be replaced or recharged 

 

percentage of charge instead of ammo would be interesting with some sort of overheat mechanic

the more you overheat your weapon it depletes your max energy pool, if you control your heat build up your energy capacitor is more economic

I like this! I was thinking of some way to keep Tenno from just holding the button down. Batteries (the magazines) that are too hot from discharging hold less charge?

Adding to OP.

[Kyte]

You've never actually used a launcher. It shows.

It's from my experience with the Penta that I formulated that response. I admit I sometimes ran out of ammo, mostly when I forgot about the change so I didn't bother gathering pickings but that's pretty minor.

Edited November 10, 2014 by Kyte

[Mastikator2]

Okay, let me try to explain it better:

 

There is, no where in all of existence, outside of your head, any explanation, anywhere, at all, whatsoever, for what "fieldron battey" means, besides "madeup term that uses a word already existing in warframe".

 

You could use "dfsaojqpewrqewdf" instead of "fieldron battery", and it would make just as much sense. I don't know what you *think* you described, but it's just meaningless gibberish.

A Fieldron according to in game description is a "Weaponized containment field to contain superheated substances". A fieldron battery would be something that contains the substance meant to be superheated or energy for superheating. Something to refill the fieldrons in your energy weapons. A "dfsaojqpewrqewdf" wouldn't related back to the game the same way a "fieldron battery" would.

[RozenSeven69]

I love the ammo pool part but the overheat mechanic is a little on the mid way for me because it's a thin line from adding to the game play or making people hate it, I.E halo did it right because they where slow firing plasma guns so you could keep from over heating the gun, but in warframe most of the energy weapons are fast, a beam or shoot one be blast so over heating could end up being a game breaker for a lot of people, if it's did right i would love to see it in the game but like i said it's a thin line.

[Institute-Marksman]

With all eyes on the Opticor, I would like to see people's opinion on having a recharging energy pool for energy weapons such as the Dera, Detron, Lanka, Opticor, etc.

The pool itself would be limited but recharges, allowing for the reload animations to still be relevant.

Update 1:

The problem now is the size of the ammo pool, since energy weapons vary wildly when it comes to efficiency, I suggest something like 300 taking Glaxion into consideration, but that's quite a lot for weapons like the Quanta and Lanka. Perhaps individual reserve amount for each weapon? Something like 2x base reserve clips?

Update 2: HAYABU5A has suggested an overheat mechanic that will reduce the capacity of the clip to prevent excessive firing times. I feel this is a great addition to this idea, keep 'em coming guys!

Yes, I would definitely like to see this. Overheat mechanism is good.

Suggestion: Fieldron Generators in Corpus missions. This device produces a field in which energy weapons regain their ammunition. The higher the difficulty, the faster the ammo regenerates and the larger the field is. Fieldron Generators come in two different sizes, one small and one large.

You are able to create your own Fieldron Regenerator in the Foundry. These can be deployed in every mission, since the Grineer would have no need for Fieldron Generators.

Inspiration for Concept Art:

 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Institute-Marksman