Zeromanicus Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Man, viver was so fun :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeAura Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 As for this stuff, I can only pity the people who see the need to cheat in a game/exploit a game for their personal success/gain. I always did and I always will... but I guess it is just me, who prefers to play games in a certain way and in the way, the devs mean them to be played (if I have a feeling, something is an exploit, I try to avoid it to not gain anything/not too much from it and report it). There is just waaaay too many people out there, who value things in games way more than they should... It is not unusual for people to want the rewards of a game the devs have admitted gratifies based on them. If they feel the game is too unfair, then they will gravitate to cheats and exploits to balance it. Of course, this threshold of what is bearable is different for everyone it shouldn't be too hard to find a rational level for the devs. And from what I've seen of new viver, it actually encourages being even more abusive than less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chorba Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 As for this stuff, I can only pity the people who see the need to cheat in a game/exploit a game for their personal success/gain. I always did and I always will... but I guess it is just me, who prefers to play games in a certain way and in the way, the devs mean them to be played (if I have a feeling, something is an exploit, I try to avoid it to not gain anything/not too much from it and report it). There is just waaaay too many people out there, who value things in games way more than they should... Let me point out a word and a phrase in your first sentence. 1. Cheat, as per http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cheat: : to break a rule or law usually to gain an advantage at something : to take something from (someone) by lying or breaking a rule : to prevent (someone) from having something that he or she deserves or was expecting to get The first definition applies here. [to BREAK a RULE or LAW to gain something at something] Pray tell, what art those rules and law be? Dear heavens, do not tell me there are rules and laws to how I should play a mission! I have been playing this whole game incorrectly, ignorant of the laws and rules! Dramatization aside, there are no rules or laws that bind you to how to play a mission. I believe there is a policy to not using external memory-altering programs, but none about use of abilities, warframes, weapons etc. you can do whatever you want to as long as you are able to. 2. exploit a game for their personal success/gain Exploit, as per http://www.thefreedictionary.com/exploit: 1. To employ to the greatest possible advantage: exploit one's talents. 2. To make use of selfishly or unethically: a country that exploited peasant labor. See Synonyms at manipulate. 3. To advertise; promote. While I'd like to say that definition 1 applies here, it is most likely definition 2. And I don't see how Viver was an unethical grind. Warframe is inherently selfish as you grind for yourself, so yes, we are doing it for personal success and/or gain. That's what this grind is all about. It is not unusual for people to want the rewards of a game the devs have admitted gratifies based on them. If they feel the game is too unfair, then they will gravitate to cheats and exploits to balance it. Of course, this threshold of what is bearable is different for everyone it shouldn't be too hard to find a rational level for the devs. And from what I've seen of new viver, it actually encourages being even more abusive than less. Again, the same: cheats and exploits. There's a natural tendencies for people to gravitate to the best possible method to gain [credits, exp, rep], as natural as electricity to run through the path of least resistance. I have to admit though, Viver will need a loooooooot of testing again to see the extent of the changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draennon Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) It is not unusual for people to want the rewards of a game the devs have admitted gratifies based on them. If they feel the game is too unfair, then they will gravitate to cheats and exploits to balance it. Of course, this threshold of what is bearable is different for everyone it shouldn't be too hard to find a rational level for the devs. And from what I've seen of new viver, it actually encourages being even more abusive than less. That is exactly right. And I agree with you (at least I think thats your opinion too) that the cheaters need to be punished/taken away their means. What the devs need though are suggestions/ideas... and no "*whine whine* why you take away our 247/ rep farming spot". It is probably just my level of patience, but I have faith in the devs. The update still kidna just rolled out (since there was halloween inbetween as well) and the major bugs have just been fixed (invisible archwing enemies, loads of crashes - with some still remaining). There has to be a middle ground for this, without destroying the basic concept, they have for the syndicates (being unable to have them all in the positive ranks, for example - a feature, that I think is a good idea). What I feel would be more useful would be, to generally increase rep gain from normal missions. I mean, the archwing extermination and sabotage missions give you what... 20-30 rep? Making for something like... lets say 200 an hour. I am fairly sure though, they are looking into this. Changes will be made, things will be added. Syndicate based invasion would be something, I could see happening. Maybe a conflict, where the syndicates more directly attack each other. Time will tell. -snip- Sorry for the cut, but it's more readable that way (don't mean that disrespectful, I appreciate your input actually). As I said, I tend to play games the way, devs mean for them to be played. In this case I don't think, they want you to be able to afk/bot/macro your way through that mission. If the rep gain is that high on puprose would actually require a statement from them. In the end, since rep is tied to affinity I guess you can say, it is meant to be that way. Personally I just don't understand macro and (even less) bot-users. Again, that's probably just me. But if I want to play a game, I want to play a game... like myself... with my comp doing as little work for me as possible. If there is an ingame option for that... do whatever. If you have to use an external program... yeah, then it is probably not intended. But each their own, I guess. If anything, I will get the mods I can't get from friends. I don't plan to trade for them. But I know that stuff like that can drive players away (meaning the bot users, not the excessive farming... if someone feels like doing the same thing 24/7 for hours... be my guest). And yes, you are right... lots of testing is needed and thats exactly, what they need us for. But stuff like "waaaaaah, you take away ma lolly" does not help... especially since it sounds like the old thing is still working... players read "change" and whine about it, without actually looking at the effects it had. Sounds like back then, when trinity got changed... alot of people cried, even though she still does the same thing... just requires a bit more effort/skill to be used to her full extend. Edited November 7, 2014 by Draennon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeAura Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 What I feel would be more useful would be, to generally increase rep gain from normal missions. I mean, the archwing extermination and sabotage missions give you what... 20-30 rep? Making for something like... lets say 200 an hour. I am fairly sure though, they are looking into this. Changes will be made, things will be added. Syndicate based invasion would be something, I could see happening. Maybe a conflict, where the syndicates more directly attack each other. Time will tell. I would actually rather agree with that. If every other mission available wasn't terrible by comparison people would not be so upset. My opinion is more that if they wish to stop cheaters and exploiters, they must more accurately identify what is making the cheating possible. I would rather they have made Viver in to a planet or Infested Interception. Because as I see, this doesn't actually solve the abuse of cheating and exploiting. It is encouraging even harder exploitation. Running Trinity/Mag was enough in the old system, it wasn't exactly healthy, but, it left enough room for wiggle and fun to be had in the mission, even if that is the only mission that was being run. Now it is two trinitys and two mags, positioned at far ends of the room. The actual exploitation hasn't been solved at all, because it can and will be done just as easily with a little extra planning put in, but is has made it significantly more difficult and less enjoyable on the honest players and the people who weren't abusing it to the extent that it was exploitative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derethevil Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 The problem with exploits i hate are simple.You may be best not to abuse them.. But you are stupid in a long term, if people wont get punished for doing it.So if you abuse a system to "cheat" yourself to something you want, you may cheat yourself and might kill your fun in game.The problem is.. Only maybe. Maybe you then have everything to experience the fun you allways wanted. And if you dont. Maybe you still have your fun. Maybe you can say you playing this with a shiny white vest, but you are the cheated one. Also i do believe its not that hard to find people, who did this. It might sound mean, but people should get punished for abusing it. It kills my joy in this game, hearing about people can abuse such a thing, without having any consequences. And it also kills my trust in fairplay.If they get away with this, why shouldnt i do it to the next time? Maybe you will punish players for this the next time such a thing occurs. But i didnt see many people getting punished for such a behaviour in the past. If you say you punish people, but you really dont, you just cheat yourself.If you dont tell people, that you punish such behaviour, you cant just be to hard to them.Show them, that its not the way a Tenno should act in Warframe. It doesnt have to be much. Im not talking about a ban or something like that. It already would be enough to take their "stolen" goods away again. It might be difficult to shut down everyone. But if you dont start on some point here, you will always have these guys, destroying the game, the market or overall economy in a game. Please DE. Dont let this happen here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chorba Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 That is exactly right. And I agree with you (at least I think thats your opinion too) that the cheaters need to be punished/taken away their means. What the devs need though are suggestions/ideas... and no "*whine whine* why you take away our 247/ rep farming spot". It is probably just my level of patience, but I have faith in the devs. The update still kidna just rolled out (since there was halloween inbetween as well) and the major bugs have just been fixed (invisible archwing enemies, loads of crashes - with some still remaining). There has to be a middle ground for this, without destroying the basic concept, they have for the syndicates (being unable to have them all in the positive ranks, for example - a feature, that I think is a good idea). What I feel would be more useful would be, to generally increase rep gain from normal missions. I mean, the archwing extermination and sabotage missions give you what... 20-30 rep? Making for something like... lets say 200 an hour. I am fairly sure though, they are looking into this. Changes will be made, things will be added. Syndicate based invasion would be something, I could see happening. Maybe a conflict, where the syndicates more directly attack each other. Time will tell. I would actually rather agree with that. If every other mission available wasn't terrible by comparison people would not be so upset. My opinion is more that if they wish to stop cheaters and exploiters, they must more accurately identify what is making the cheating possible. I would rather they have made Viver in to a planet or Infested Interception. Because as I see, this doesn't actually solve the abuse of cheating and exploiting. It is encouraging even harder exploitation. Running Trinity/Mag was enough in the old system, it wasn't exactly healthy, but, it left enough room for wiggle and fun to be had in the mission, even if that is the only mission that was being run. Now it is two trinitys and two mags, positioned at far ends of the room. The actual exploitation hasn't been solved at all, because it can and will be done just as easily with a little extra planning put in, but is has made it significantly more difficult and less enjoyable on the honest players and the people who weren't abusing it to the extent that it was exploitative. Cheating. Again, this word used against the original dictionary meaning. Although I might have found something: wikipedia. As per wikipedia, on cheating: "Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation." An easy way out of an unpleasant situation, that's what we've been looking for. Now I understand. It is very unfortunate that this definition applies here, as Viver is the easy way out and the unpleasant situation is this game's rep system, aka Grind Squared. No, scratch that. This whole GAME is an unpleasant situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akira_him Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) -snip- No, scratch that. This whole GAME is an unpleasant situation. this the so-called "grind cheating" needs a lot of teamwork, players get bonus reward being cooperate with each other in the old Viver Now DE destroyed and denied what they have been telling us to do: "Teamwork" edited normal situation: cooperate with each other to get keys or other interception reward faster (by means of capturing objectives) "cheat" situation: cooperate with each other to get syndicate points and rewards faster (by means of not capturing objectives) pretty much the same thing Edited November 7, 2014 by akira_him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derethevil Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) Cheating. Again, this word used against the original dictionary meaning. Although I might have found something: wikipedia. As per wikipedia, on cheating: "Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation." An easy way out of an unpleasant situation, that's what we've been looking for. Now I understand. It is very unfortunate that this definition applies here, as Viver is the easy way out and the unpleasant situation is this game's rep system, aka Grind Squared. No, scratch that. This whole GAME is an unpleasant situation. So you are a masochist then? Or why are you playing a game you cant enjoy? Sweet talk what happend and finding a "correct word" for what happend isnt what we are looking for here. I know that people enjoy beeing lazy. I know people will always complain about grind in games. But you know. You also live just to grind through your life. You always do something repetitive, just to get your money. People who are trying to cheat this (Robbery, theft, etc.) get punished for this. (Some more or less) And there you have it. People did the same thing in here. They cheated. They betrayed their fellow Tenno, just to get something quicker, where others play fair and square. Again. We shouldnt look for the right word to call what happend here. We should look for the right thing to do to these people, for what they did, so others wont try to do such a thing in the future anymore. If you keep searching for a word, for what they did: Edited November 7, 2014 by Derethevil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeAura Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Cheating. Again, this word used against the original dictionary meaning. Although I might have found something: wikipedia. As per wikipedia, on cheating: "Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation." I need three or four different words to work with here without my sentences becoming a garbled mess of the same one over and over. It is contextual usage like in real speech, I'm not using it by a strict definition. And there is actual cheating going on, the use of bots apparently. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draennon Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Cheating. Again, this word used against the original dictionary meaning. Although I might have found something: wikipedia. As per wikipedia, on cheating: "Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means or finding an easy way out of an unpleasant situation." An easy way out of an unpleasant situation, that's what we've been looking for. Now I understand. It is very unfortunate that this definition applies here, as Viver is the easy way out and the unpleasant situation is this game's rep system, aka Grind Squared. No, scratch that. This whole GAME is an unpleasant situation. I have to disagree there. Well... to me, it is not an unpleasant situation. But again... I don't play it for the shiny points, I play it to play it. I run alerts, if they pop up... might even do some lower lvl missions, ending up helping some new players. Thats the kind of stuff, I enjoy. The game gives me that. But that aside... to really know, if syndicates work as intended, a talk with the devs would be needed. It can not be called broken, just because someone does not like how it works. If the devs implemented syndicates, so you have to gather points for weeks and months, then it works just the way, they want it to work at this point. Proper balancing is a hard thing to do. A thing that can hardly be properly done by a team of maybe 100 people (only a guess here, don't know, how much man/woman power DE actually has). But that is NOTHING, compared to thousands of players, who play the game. They have to let their creations loose on us to see, how it works, to then incorporate feedback, fix bugs, add and remove things. That all takes it's time, during which damage can unfortunately be done, be it intentional or not. The wikipedia definition seems to be the one to apply here. In our days, you can't always refer to the dictionary, since alot of words gained additional meanings, that you wont find there. Just to give a small example: I don't like to call people noobs, even if they ARE new, due to the negative meaning it got nowadays. meanings of words change slightly over time. I am rambling... lol. I say, lets wait what else DE has in mind for the syndicates. Until then... I am off to slay some infidels! ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeAura Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 The wikipedia definition seems to be the one to apply here. In our days, you can't always refer to the dictionary, since alot of words gained additional meanings, that you wont find there. Just to give a small example: I don't like to call people noobs, even if they ARE new, due to the negative meaning it got nowadays. meanings of words change slightly over time. I am rambling... lol. Well, if we're rambling I believe the definition of noob is split between noob and newb short for newbie. Noob is the negative connotation of someone who is only as good as a new player, while newb/newbie is someone who is actually a new player. But that aside... to really know, if syndicates work as intended, a talk with the devs would be needed. It can not be called broken, just because someone does not like how it works. If the devs implemented syndicates, so you have to gather points for weeks and months, then it works just the way, they want it to work at this point. Although I don't think Broken is defined by what the devs want or intend. Devs can want broken things, they are not above mistakes. That's particularly why we are here. Corollary to that would be that taking months isn't necessarily broken, as long as it done right. Which it does not seem to be either. I do not doubt Syndicates are broken, I am more so in doubt what way they are broken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kasumi- Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 After testing, there seems to be the same amount of spawns but they're more spread out. There are a lot more enemies spawning on the top level, and in the back corners. And with the points spread out, you're not seeing as many enemies on screen. I tried the mission once or twice and I also see that enemy spawns have indeed NOT been lowered. On the topic of Viver, that mission is now unplayable for me. Not getting above 8 FPS in there. On the bright side, I can finally host Archwing missions without my GPU having a heart attack :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akira_him Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 After testing, the same method gained more syndicate points than it used to And making key farming a bit harder so what's the point of changing it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hs0003 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Please do and report back! I just tested it out and the spawn rate seemed to have been massively reduced, I barely got 100 kills during the first round where I would usually get 500-2000 depending on frame and tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octrion Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Will have to check it out, but thank you for the stealth finisher fix! A stealth 'kill' with Silva & Aegis was laughable, two slices that did hardly any damage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoenix86 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 #casual dat lack of good manners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luditte Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Fixed several Sigil icons appearing as ammo boxes. i need to see this.. is it like tenno walking around with ammo boxes strapped to their chests? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint_of_Grey Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Mother of god people, you're acting like the viver change is the end of warframe as we know it. They just moved the the towers further apart. You can still net 600-1000 standing a run with a full group. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eymerich Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) XP+nvidia 9500 here, I now crash after 2-3 seconds from the beginning of a mission, but before I couldn't even start a mission, so I guess it's a step forward. Also, no more Blue Sreen of Death, which is quite nice since I can now leave proper crash reports. WAR-355091 Edited November 7, 2014 by Eymerich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draennon Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 (edited) Fixed several Sigil icons appearing as ammo boxes. i need to see this.. is it like tenno walking around with ammo boxes strapped to their chests? They showed as ammo boxes in the selection, not on your body, hehe. That how it was with the grand master sigil, anyway. That aside, it is nice to see all you XP users appreciate even the slightest improvements, as opposed to be all "grawr, still can't play. I hate you DE!". Even if some of you still can't really play... hope, you guys can join back into the action soon! Fingers crossed. Edited November 7, 2014 by Draennon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-N00blShowtek- Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Decorations <3 :D http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=337990585 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dead_Rabbits Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 Thanks for fixing the founders Sigil's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sannidor Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 What's wrong with Jat? I've been using it all day. You're not much of a J.K. user... It has lost air attack overhead animation. Same happened to Magistar. Still waiting for a fix to this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NN13 Posted November 7, 2014 Share Posted November 7, 2014 I support the Viver nerf. For folks who didn't seem to understand, it worked like this: 1. A group of 2-4 people consisting of a Trinity + either Mag Prime / Oberon / Rhino Prime stood in a certain place. 2. They set their bots to press "4" repeatedly. 3. They went afk for an hour. 4. #4 skills could hit the whole map, and force all interception nodes to remain neutral. 5. Return in an hour to collect 15,000 affinity, 200+ mods, whatever resources were left. 6. All weapons you brought were now L30. 7. Leave, rinse, repeat. It was getting difficult to find a group to DO stuff, because everyone was busy afk-botting in Viver. While I didnt "afk-bot",I did stand in one place and spam Shield Polarise to get reputation points. I am not sure how you are so sure that "afk-botting" will work here because afaik,we dont have infinite energy. Thats why we needed a Trinity. And Trinity's EV has to be aimed on an enemy. But even if someone was able to do it.....They CAN still do it now. 1. A group of 2-4 people consisting of a Trinity + 2 Mag Primes /1 Mag Prime and 1 Excalibur and a Banshee stood in a certain place. 2. Others continue to use the same bot they used,this time just near point B. And the 4th member who is Banshee doesnt even need a bot. She presses 4 near point C. 3. They went afk for an hour. 4. #4 skills could hit the whole map, and force all interception nodes to remain neutral.(This doesnt work now.) So,Banshee keeps point C safe and others can still kill enemies near other 3 points. 5. Return in an hour to collect 15,000 affinity, 200+ mods, whatever resources were left. 6. All weapons you brought were now L30. 7. Leave, rinse, repeat. Point 5,6 and 7 still works as usual. If anything,all DE did was make it harder for Solo players.....Thats all. Pretty much this. If people are so eager to grind affinity, then there are other venues that work just fine. These melodramatics are embarrassing. No there are no other venues that works better than Viver. I tried Sechura,it gives less reputation. I tried Cerberus,its map is huge and is harder. TBH,I dont care about the change....Now I just take 2 Mags and 2 Trinitys and divide the team in 2 man cell containing Mag and Trinity in each. And then I go on with what I did. But,I don't think it was a necessary change or even an important one....There are other issues that needed to be fixed than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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