Silence And Melee, Or Why Contagion Is Terrible

[Gizogin]

Contagion, Saryn's 3-ability, is bad.  It costs the same as Speed Boost, but while Speed Boost offers a dramatic, well, speed boost to the entire team, Contagion grants a moderate increase to one weapon of one team member, namely Saryn herself.  It now costs 50 energy; it used to cost 75, making it cost the same as Roar and Warcry.  Both of these abilities help the entire team, and their benefits are flat-out better.  Contagion is bad.

 

So, if you'll bear with me a moment, I just finished building Banshee.  I gather she's intended as a support/mezzer, what with the Sonar and the lack of real direct-damage abilities and such.  Funnily enough, I found her to be tons of fun as a melee and mid-range closer (what Saryn seems to be geared towards), and playing her has given me yet more insight as to why Contagion is so bad.

 

Silence does everything I'd hoped Contagion would do, allowing Banshee (far from tanky enough to close to melee range normally) to rush in to close range and deal phenomenal damage with melee.  It does this by briefly stunning any enemy who enters its radius, while said radius moves with Banshee.  

 

Furthermore, it is immediately obvious that Silence is active, that certain enemies are affected by it, and that it muffles sounds.  Unlike Contagion, I never have to consciously remember to use it, because there is a very obvious difference between having it on and not.  Furthermore, I have reason to use it, because it fundamentally improves Banshee's viability in melee in a way that does not rely at all on damage.  The change directly affects the way that I play, while my strategy for melee is exactly the same whether or not I have Contagion active.

 

 

So, to that end, I am more sure than ever that Contagion must be scrapped altogether.  "Allure", as defined in Archwizard's wonderful thread (https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/198866-retune-all-the-frames-112-welcome-limbo), would be much, much better.  I had originally posted this idea there as well, but I think it's worthy of some discussion of its own.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

DE's often hesitant to completely scrap an ability, but this one is rarely useful and isn't fun. I never saw Overheat but I've heard of it, and would love to see that concept on a tank.

[Luxylol]

contagion is not bad if you have a build that focus on it,  makes melee with saryn really strong, and beeing toxic dmg, makes it very usefull for most Melee builds

 

 

not sure bout the exact numbers but its somthing like 150% or more toxic dmg  to weapon with the build I have for it, and that is not bad at all

[Gizogin]

contagion is not bad if you have a build that focus on it,  makes melee with saryn really strong, and beeing toxic dmg, makes it very usefull for most Melee builds

 

 

not sure bout the exact numbers but its somthing like 150% or more toxic dmg  to weapon with the build I have for it, and that is not bad at all

 

Right, so at max you can add 171% toxin damage to the base damage of your melee (taken from the wiki).  This is only slightly better than just adding Fever Strike and Virulent Scourge (150% toxin) to that same weapon, and it still only applies to Saryn.

 

Consider that Roar, for a bit of extra energy, can add 114% extra damage to all weapons for the entire team, it doesn't apply only to base damage, and it actually has a pronounced visual indicator of its presence.  Warcry is in a similar boat.  Heck, even Rift Surge adds a better bonus with more indication of its effect.  Turbulence is a selfish ability, but it affects gameplay in a way that isn't just "my numbers are now bigger numbers", and it's obvious when it's in effect.

 

I shouldn't have to focus on Contagion exclusively just to bring it up to the level of an ability of most other frames.

[akira_him]

contagion is not bad if you have a build that focus on it,  makes melee with saryn really strong, and beeing toxic dmg, makes it very usefull for most Melee builds

 

 

not sure bout the exact numbers but its somthing like 150% or more toxic dmg  to weapon with the build I have for it, and that is not bad at all

the thing is, she is not tanky enough to do melee (enough to lead the team, but not melee)

add overheat to it with reduced effect would be good

[Noble_Cactus]

Right, so at max you can add 171% toxin damage to the base damage of your melee (taken from the wiki).  This is only slightly better than just adding Fever Strike and Virulent Scourge (150% toxin) to that same weapon, and it still only applies to Saryn.

 

Consider that Roar, for a bit of extra energy, can add 114% extra damage to all weapons for the entire team, it doesn't apply only to base damage, and it actually has a pronounced visual indicator of its presence.  Warcry is in a similar boat.  Heck, even Rift Surge adds a better bonus with more indication of its effect.  Turbulence is a selfish ability, but it affects gameplay in a way that isn't just "my numbers are now bigger numbers", and it's obvious when it's in effect.

 

I shouldn't have to focus on Contagion exclusively just to bring it up to the level of an ability of most other frames.

 

On top of it all, it's not fun. Add a damage boost to your melee weapon for a short period of time... that's it. Yay. It doesn't change how Saryn plays, or how she supports a team.

[ScribbleClash]

I don't see a reason to just discard the ability, but it really should be altered.

- Remove cast time on it. The skill doesn't last long and is not something you use to nuke your surroundings. Having to stand still for this type of ability is unreasonable.

- It should affect the melee of all your teammates close to you (including companions: Kubrows, Deconstructor).

- It should be toggleable. This gives more control over when you need this type of damage added.

- Personally I'd prefer it if it wouldn't alter existing damagetypes and instead add additional toxin damage that can cause a toxin status effect.

Edited November 9, 2014 by ScribbleClash

[Mastikator2]

If contagion added a 4% (at max level) life steal to melee as well as the extra toxic damage, would that make it worthwhile? I think so.

[Spellcasterz]

Im with a total rework too.

Even if contagion applied to the whole team with more obvious visual effects and maybe a little stronger buff,how often do you actually see a team going full meele?

Its not just unpractical(having to close distance to the enemy in a moments notice to actually utilize contagions running time)but also downright suicidal against high level enemies with most if not all builds(still have to see one that can actually sustain full meele but it might actually exist so Im not going to rule it out).

 

They have to either do the boring thing and apply it to all weapons or completely replace it with something more worthwhile(and fun,simple dmg buffs are never fun).

[EchoesOfRain]

Not only is contagion bad as is, but with a Miasma build, its terribly useless. I don't even have everything maxed out on my build yet, and I only get about 3 seconds of contagion. This synergy is horrible for her

[Luxylol]

Not only is contagion bad as is, but with a Miasma build, its terribly useless. I don't even have everything maxed out on my build yet, and I only get about 3 seconds of contagion. This synergy is horrible for her

 yeah obvs, Miasma wants low duration, contagion wants long duration. you can't really do a build that good for all abilitys at the same time

[Archwizard]

For those who don't want to skim my entire thread to see what the OP is referring to here -

 

Suggested changes:

- Venom spores are more responsive to area-effect attacks, each melee attack will also pop at least one spore, and any unpopped spores on a slain enemy will automatically detonate (without spreading the effect) against nearby foes.
- Molt transfers all buffs, debuffs and statuses from the casting Saryn to the decoy upon summoning. When the Molt fades or is destroyed, explosion damage is increased by total damage it received.
- Contagion replaced with “Allure”: Grants damage mitigation to the caster, with a small Gas damage aura surrounding Saryn capable of popping Venom spores.
- Miasma has a 100% status chance per tick. Power Duration adds additional ticks with stagger; reducing Power Duration no longer increases damage dealt.

 

And for my own reasoning and response,

 

That's basically what compelled me to write up Allure in the first place; every time I played Saryn, I had to actively remind myself to use Contagion whenever I got up close with enemies.

 

Keeping in mind, I'm always looking for ways to throw in Bullet Attractor that won't waste the energy (and yes, I know those are basically limited to bosses or the occasional Grineer heavy), deliberately using Speed to supplement my combo bonus, or maintaining Molecular Prime uptime - and of course, Mirage has two all-purpose damage buffs. Each of these feel incredibly rewarding in terms of damage output and visual flair, shake up your combat style, and even have strong implications on your survivability.

 

By comparison, Contagion is just a bigger number on a melee swing. Woop-de-fricking-doo.

 

Two things make Contagion forgettable: the passivity of its effects (both visually and in-combat), and the limitation to melee weapons. Even if you were to make Contagion apply to the WHOLE party (which would make the Venom augment redundant now), there's no guarantee you'd remember to use it, because the part of your brain that acknowledges it's limited to melee is telling you for 90% of the mission "you can't get anything out of it right now," and trips up whenever you can. Even if you made it apply to all weapons, you still might shy away if you're used to groups with high ability damage (the beauty of Roar, no?).

 

Theoretically, you could probably save it by combining all of these factors and adding some active incentive to remind you to cast the effect, like health or energy (for Charge builds) restoration on a hit... but by that point you're making the ability up to 12x more effective in one patch (presumably without taking away from its base effects, likely making it supremely overpowered), and generally inflating it far beyond an incentive to put just the Saryn in melee.

 

Hence, scrapping it, and picking an ability that got a caster into melee before.

[Gizogin]

Thanks, Archwizard.  Yeah, you have some really good ideas in your thread, and I recommend that everyone give it a read.  I'm just very incensed about Contagion.