Erbody Talkin Bout Viver, Here's What I Think (Heavy Opinion Be Warned)

[Janzer]

This is not directed at the developers necessarily, and no doubt this discussion has been had before about other such....spots in Warframe.

 

All I hear now is mostly Viver in recruiting in game. Eh, doesn't affect me directly, so I guess I shouldn't care. Right?

 

And yet it bothers me.

 

Sure you're gaining a lot of xp/rep, but to what end? Mods? Sigils?

 

And then what? If you end up exploiting your way through the game in order to collect everything, what will you do then? Burn yourself out from all the boring standing in one spot for hours on end? Or maybe standing in one spot (with only 1 or 2 different frames which excludes other players) on a map and using a power is exciting?

 

So what then?

 

You'll go on to.....do the same boring things again in another map? Find another exploitable map and repeat the same standing in one spot while finding the most boring way to kill enemies.....because.....what?

 

Perhaps I'm just looking at it the wrong way.

 

I'm sure there's a great reason for diluting the Warframe community with this. It is something to definitely kill a game community though. Or, or maybe this is what we're expected to be part of?

 

It promotes the idea in game that this is what is expected of new players. To know the exploits and to use them all of the time. It shows players in game that do not visit the forums, that this is the way the game is played by the community.

 

By exploiting your way to the top, in order to burn out or get bored, to have no goals or items to reach for.

 

And what's even worse, to do it with no skill.

 

Let me be clear. It's not the fact that a lot of xp and rep are gained through a harder level map, it's the manner in how it's being achieved which is disrupting for the game's liveliness.

 

This type of "gameplay" ends up killing gaming communities or turning them toxic, because there is no care for the game itself. This means that people quit the game sooner than they would if they had something to play towards. It's toxic because it places newer players into a fast reward scenario that wasn't intended, and puts pressure on them to play in this way in order to be part of the community and interact.

 

Because if you're not in the know, you're excluded.

 

Silly comments in recruiting like "Need a Mag Prime / Excalibur that knows what they're doing for Viver", attempt to elevate the idea that standing near the center of the map and pressing a power key or two is actually a difficult thing to understand.

 

It's an exploit and it's a boring and dumb one that requires no skill. Even if you haven't maxed out your mods on your frame, the mentality of exploiting (and I call it an exploit because there's no skill involved at all, and it rushes you to an end goal not intended to be reached with such little effort) is toxic to this community.

 

No, it doesn't affect me directly. But it does affect the game community in Warframe, which in turn creates a reputation of what the game is like to play, which affects the ingress of players, and creates a faster exit for players that haven't had an opportunity to actually play anything much else in the game.

 

So why are a lot of players, even Founders in the forums from what I read, using this exploit (although they say it's not one)? There is more than likely a reason right?

 

My best guess would be the Syndicate structuring and expense versus reward, which has been criticized highly even though it's been about for about....two weeks. It's the first implementation of this system, and people aren't interested in waiting for DE to make modifications to this system.

 

So what's the solution? I don't have one. I could propose that players learn some patience and let changes come in to affect based on the massive amount of suggestions they've already given DE. I could also say DE, at least put out something that will allow players to know that you will be making modifications to this Reputation system, so they'll feel less inclined to play in the manner in which we currently have on-going.

 

I know many opinions will criticize one way or the other, but I believe we're all in agreement that this system is having an impact on players that are participating and those that are not. Just have a mosey on down to the Recruit channel in game. See what you think.

[Tacritan]

Its up to you, you can just go and spend months trying to get a mod.. Nobody cares.

Personally, i'm not really farming reputation but i can understand people who abuse viver.

Edited November 9, 2014 by Tacritan

[Ishki88]

The funny thing is...Viver is actually UNITED the "casual" players with the so called "elite" players.....some of my best experiences with random non-clan players have came from Viver...and OG XINI, OG Kappa

[Kinperor]

I think it's comical.

 

People complain about the grind at the drop of an hat. What happens the second a new system is introduced? The community engage maximum overdrive to grind it as hard and long as possible. 

 

In a couple of weeks (days?) we'll get an influx of people saying "Syndicates are useless! I have no reason to wear my sigil! Dailies are ****!" so on so forth... 

[TDS0Spoderman]

That was a long post and well written ( kudos to you ) so i will only reply to this point in particular

 

 

So why are a lot of players, even Founders in the forums from what I read, using this exploit (although they say it's not one)? There is more than likely a reason right?

 

 

The reason is ( personal opinion warning ) that 

 

a) people have the general concern that the Syndicate system was poorly implemented and don't want to wait moths to farm the ReP needed for Augmented ability and weapon mods 

 

b) like with most things ( not only in this game) people want to get things done as far as possible , that's why you see people leveling weapons from 1 to 30 in single runs using appropriate maps and load-outs, cheating their way achieve victory ( like in some past events) and in general  avoiding the "road" to get to the "destination" , in this case having maxed rep .

[ZhurZhur]

I personaly belive that they shoudl just adjust viver some more make it nessasary to move around and not sit in one place and spam (make it hard but keep the reward), and DE just has to add more stuff to each syndicats (like endgame stealth mission were you sneek into an enemy syndicate's base and you get rewards depending on how you did [maybe no negitive loss if you are never seen]) and more mods.

 

TLDR: make viver more diffucalt keep rewards and give syndicates more stuff.

[vaugahn]

Essentially, yes.

 

Ridiculous grindfests like Viver are bad for the game.

 

However, we have to consider that there's a reason why ridiculous grindfests like Viver are so popular. There is an underlying problem here that needs to be addressed, the abusing of exploits is just a symptom. 

[LukeAura]

I think it's comical.

 

People complain about the grind at the drop of an hat. What happens the second a new system is introduced? The community engage maximum overdrive to grind it as hard and long as possible. 

You have it backwards. 

They complain about grind, and then they find the most effective way to minimize that grind. Grinding is grinding, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you do it. Half an hour, one hour, two hours a day. They want the reward, and there is no alternative to get that reward but grind.  

They also want to play the game, so why wouldn't they take any reason to play? Should we all just stop supporting it until it stops being about grind? 

@OP, 

People have always been finding the best grinding spots in Warframe. Xini, Kappa, Kappa again when Corpus took it and it became Oxium heaven, new Xini. Don't think people now doing the same with Viver is something new to the game, it is the nature of how people play Warframe. And largely games in general. 

You play a game to achieve its goals. Some games make 'creative expression' the goal, like Minecraft. Some make it beating the story. Warframe makes its goals collecting all the shiny mods and gear, it's an element that is in an overwhelming majority of games, even ones with other goals present.

The players objective is to find a way to achieve this goal in the way that works for them. For Creative and story drive games, the rush isn't so bad, because the gratification does not come from the endpoint, but the journey there as well. With reward based games, the gratification comes from the end, the pay off. This means the desire to get there faster is greater.  

This isn't a problem with the community though, it's a problem with the standing system not being harmonious with endpoint based gratification, that's what is creating your toxicity.

Edited November 10, 2014 by LukeAura

[EinheriarJudith]

to the OP you've said exactly what i was thinking. I did a test i went to viver on excaliber and necros then i went to various other multi lvled interception, defense, survival aka endless defense and viver nets the most xp gain because even though its eris and i have no idea what a corpus tile is doing on an infested planet in the first place you get pluto, ceres style xp. if you got eris style xp people would most surely look to cerberus pluto. im one for taking the path of most resistence because in the end i feel the gratification of getting the reward and like the op is saying about people trying to set a new standard for new players i for one will not DE should either change viver to an INFESTED tileset to match the planet or balance all other Endless Def to net equal amounts of syndicate xp. the fact that so few people even care about the happenings in these situation shows you the mentality of gaming communities today. sad sad times.

[elfkinn]

viper is perfect it's actually pretty hectic like the way intercepts were before hey became easy and had reduced spawns, it actually feels like a challenge and so what if people want to grind, don't complain oh his sucks because someone else found a better way to grind than you just deal with it viper is great be grateful that there is an option to grind rep at a good pace, don't complain the one thing I hate about the warframe community is the stupid complaints oh this is too good, no it is not things can't be too good they can be bad, really bad, horrible, and good there need to be different levels of good for different people so just because something doesn't fit you doesn't mean it should be taken out. In fact I'm sure you haven't tried serious rep grinding on cover it isn't stay in one spot there is a system, a strategy to it if you actually eat to farm rep, you got to make sure you are 1% above the enemy, and hold points a and d to maximize spawns, and sometimes the enemies will claim points before you can at he start of a wave and then the second someone breaks post to of

Somewhere else they spawn at the location you just left, so cover should not be changed it is perfect and a challenge, just like when you had to actually find a decent group to complete your first intercept mission, (Gaia) all intercepts used to be as hard and hectic as viver before t4 keys were introduced, de please don't listen to hear fools who hate the great gift of viver that you have given us, praise de for all they have done praise viver appreciate viver go and do your daily prayer for viver

[AsuraKyu]

It'll just end up getting the actual nerf it deserves, leaving the player base who did exploit feeling as though they're cheated because they have nothing to abuse now. It's how most games work find what works, exploit it until company has to do something about it. What I don't understand is why they ask for things to do then instead of going about the game as they normally would, they organize these elitist agenda's for playing a game. EG. "Only 1 Mag? Better abort."

[EinheriarJudith]

viper is perfect it's actually pretty hectic like the way intercepts were before hey became easy and had reduced spawns, it actually feels like a challenge and so what if people want to grind, don't complain oh his sucks because someone else found a better way to grind than you just deal with it viper is great be grateful that there is an option to grind rep at a good pace, don't complain the one thing I hate about the warframe community is the stupid complaints oh this is too good, no it is not things can't be too good they can be bad, really bad, horrible, and good there need to be different levels of good for different people so just because something doesn't fit you doesn't mean it should be taken out. In fact I'm sure you haven't tried serious rep grinding on cover it isn't stay in one spot there is a system, a strategy to it if you actually eat to farm rep, you got to make sure you are 1% above the enemy, and hold points a and d to maximize spawns, and sometimes the enemies will claim points before you can at he start of a wave and then the second someone breaks post to of

Somewhere else they spawn at the location you just left, so cover should not be changed it is perfect and a challenge, just like when you had to actually find a decent group to complete your first intercept mission, (Gaia) all intercepts used to be as hard and hectic as viver before t4 keys were introduced, de please don't listen to hear fools who hate the great gift of viver that you have given us, praise de for all they have done praise viver appreciate viver go and do your daily prayer for viver

 

If you think viver is a challenge then i want to know what the word challenge means to you because. Standing in one spot and spaming skills for any amount of time is not a challenge the match i was in with excal i literally stood center map and spammed radial jav and in the match with necros i didnt even have to do anything we had a nova trinity and mag and mag and nova stood in one spot at the walkway point and trin stood behind them on the bottom floor and spammed energy vamp and link while nova spammed Molecular Prime and mag spammed pull. you say you might have trouble with getting to the points first? are you forgetting how easy it is to kill the enemies you can easily hold 2 points and remove one red one to gain the lead after that you just go back to the spot you were standing in. it could be much worse lol do you even know how it could be much worse i think its worse now because people will rush to max and then come here to the forums and complain about no end game content. and this is Factual information.

[SlyBoots]

You have it backwards. 

They complain about grind, and then they find the most effective way to minimize that grind. Grinding is grinding, it doesn't matter how fast or slow you do it. Half an hour, one hour, two hours a day. They want the reward, and there is no alternative to get that reward but grind.  

They also want to play the game, so why wouldn't they take any reason to play? Should we all just stop supporting it until it stops being about grind? 

@OP, 

People have always been finding the best grinding spots in Warframe. Xini, Kappa, Kappa again when Corpus took it and it became Oxium heaven, new Xini. Don't think people now doing the same with Viver is something new to the game, it is the nature of how people play Warframe. And largely games in general. 

You play a game to achieve its goals. Some games make 'creative expression' the goal, like Minecraft. Some make it beating the story. Warframe makes its goals collecting all the shiny mods and gear, it's an element that is in an overwhelming majority of games, even ones with other goals present.

The players objective is to find a way to achieve this goal in the way that works for them. For Creative and story drive games, the rush isn't so bad, because the gratification does not come from the endpoint, but the journey there as well. With reward based games, the gratification comes from the end, the pay off. This means the desire to get there faster is greater.  

This isn't a problem with the community though, it's a problem with the standing system not being harmonious with endpoint based gratification, that's what is creating your toxicity.

 

this is the only correct analysis so far. and that's really all there is to say, it is about efficiency and efficiency only (as in output per input), and that's due to what DE decided this game would be about, collecting/grinding/farming - whatever you wanna call it.

Edited November 10, 2014 by SlyBoots

[Eyeless]

My two cents on this are purely opinion and it's hardly anything that's not been said before. That being said, here it goes:

 

DE's dug themselves another trench by making their gameplay about the reward and not the actual journey to that reward.

 

The abysmal drop rates on many desired high tier items and the incessant and new grind walls that come every new update reinforce the idea of getting from Point A to Point B as quickly as possible so you can get the next greatest shiny. There's not much more to it due to the way things are currently rigged. 

 

Rigged in the fact that trying to enjoy the game itself isn't too profitable or rewarding from a loot or experience gaining standpoint. 

 

Survival oxygen drop rates and general XP influx has been nerfed noticably making this popular and more enjoyable endless mode feel just as slow going as Defenses and Interceptions, whose own stacking rewards have been diluted to where it honestly felt better having less consistent rares instead of getting piles of crap we already have hundreds of to begin with.

 

XP gain in general has slowed down significantly making leveling a chore for those wanting to get weapons and frames they don't enjoy out of the way while Syndicates are a punishing grindwall in and of themselves that offer nothing to the Veterans beyond sticking to the increasingly scarce places to gain any reasonable amounts of XP for leveling. 

 

Yes, players don't HAVE to do this but with how simple and basic most mission types are and such a clear emphasis on getting loot and new fancy shinies over actual team-play what can DE honestly expect? 

 

Most of the games currently existing mechanics could do with some serious polish, what with how on rails the current melee system feels and how underutilized the truly amazing aesthetic and theme is in favor of samey feeling maps, monotonous enemies, and cookie cutter weaponry. 

 

This leads to lack of true immersion and a lack of interest in most missions that don't inherently give you some overarching progress or reward. The problem is getting to that reward is getting harder and more monotonous each and every update while we're shoveled more and more to grind for. It feels like a grind due to lack of depth or truly engaging gameplay and a lack of actual reward. 

 

The stacking rewards on Defense and Interception are a glaring example. Standing on one point or multiple for 35 minutes hoping for just one T4 key is boring. Not making any noticeable progress in a reasonable time trying to level your frame or weapon to 30 is defeating, especially when you intend to use multiple forma and the places you enjoy playing don't give enough gain to justify playing there. (Or you're a completionist and need those T4 keys in bulk for the /chance/ to get a prime part from there.) 

 

Viver offers the most reward in terms of XP and Rep in the least amount of time possible. Less time wasted for a more perceivable benefit. The benefit being less time spent to fill the bars and grab the latest shiny. 

 

Hopefully I didn't ramble too much. I realize this isn't addressing your gripe with Viver itself but I feel Viver is yet another symptom of a much larger issue DE has failed to address for two years now despite two years worth of intuitive and creative community feedback.

 

TL;DR:

 

Gameplay isn't engaging enough which is only partially bandaided due to a heavy focus on a reward driven experience that isn't rewarding half the time leading to players doing the most rewarding mission for more effective/reasonable gain to alleviate heavy grind. 

Edited November 10, 2014 by Hastur609

[DSpite]

I agree in spirit with the OP, but either you have a game where you find everything fun and you play just for the hell of it - and I'm still at that stage - or you are just out for very specific goals, and you are impatient, so you find the fastest possible method and stick to that.

[Inez]

 

All I hear now is mostly Viver in recruiting in game. Eh, doesn't affect me directly, so I guess I shouldn't care. Right?

 

If it doesn't affect you, then logically you shouldn't care. But I have a feeling you aren't going to let logic get in the way of your rant

 

 

I'm sure there's a great reason for diluting the Warframe community with this. It is something to definitely kill a game community though.

 

Huh?

 

 

And what's even worse, to do it with no skill.

 

Because the rest of Warframe requires skill? What game have you been playing exactly?

 

 

This type of "gameplay" ends up killing gaming communities or turning them toxic, because there is no care for the game itself. This means that people quit the game sooner than they would if they had something to play towards. It's toxic because it places newer players into a fast reward scenario that wasn't intended, and puts pressure on them to play in this way in order to be part of the community and interact.

 

So by your definition affinity boosters and potatoes are toxic. I don't agree at all.

 

 

Because if you're not in the know, you're excluded.

 

There's lots of stuff to learn in Warframe. This is just one more thing.

 

 

It's an exploit and it's a boring and dumb one that requires no skill. Even if you haven't maxed out your mods on your frame, the mentality of exploiting (and I call it an exploit because there's no skill involved at all, and it rushes you to an end goal not intended to be reached with such little effort) is toxic to this community.

 

Warframe does not require effort and skill. It is a casual coop shooter, with lots of grinding. It requires lots of -time-

 

 

No, it doesn't affect me directly. But it does affect the game community in Warframe, which in turn creates a reputation of what the game is like to play, which affects the ingress of players, and creates a faster exit for players that haven't had an opportunity to actually play anything much else in the game.

 

Affinity boosters create a faster exit too. Should we do away with them?

 

 

So why are a lot of players, even Founders in the forums from what I read, using this exploit (although they say it's not one)? There is more than likely a reason right?

 

You already know the answer to this: it's the fastest way to get rep. And we can sit around and chat with our friends while doing it.

[sekushiiandee]

Essentially, yes.

 

Ridiculous grindfests like Viver are bad for the game.

 

However, we have to consider that there's a reason why ridiculous grindfests like Viver are so popular. There is an underlying problem here that needs to be addressed, the abusing of exploits is just a symptom. 

^ sorry but why are you only pointing the finger towards viver?

 

there are many prime parts that require ridiculous grindfest to get lucky enough for 1 effing part

 

bo prime handle is an example, scindo blade is another......nyx prime bp when it first came out

 

so how is this any different?

 

 

you know what the REAL problem is? the fact that even though people are effectively and efficiently farming viver for reputation......its still a crap amount they receive at the end of the mission <- with this reason i fail to see how using viver as a means to get reputation is an exploit when DE is putting these grindwalls upon us in the first place

 

so its not okay to find a way to effectively and efficiently farm in the game (keeping in mind how crappy the rewards are anyway from viver->this is in terms of reputation gain)....but it is okay to slap on a new feature in the game....call it end game but in reality its just a GIGANTIC grindwall?

 

 

if you want some math on it.....non resource booster users gain on average 3.5k reputation from running viver, eris the correct way to farm for reputation

 

that takes about a 30-40 min run in order to gain this amount of reputation......advancing the first title for the a syndicate takes about 1 1/2 hours...if youre lucky....the second title gets boosted even higher than that to an estimated 7 hours...third is about 15 hours, fourth is 22 hours, and the final title is about 30 hours.

 

sorry but even if i were trying to rush....i do not have 77 hours to play this game even within one week or even two....not to mention the ridiculous cost for those mods as well which will ramp up the time required to farm ( and this is just based on viver, eris ONLY)...not to mention that each ability mod (which is 25k rep) takes about 7 hours to farm per card

 

keep in mind that this is an extremely rough estimate and only based on farming reputation on viver, eris

 

the reality is that it is near impossible for casual players to get anywhere near this number if it were not for this mission....even then it is highly unlikely that they would achieve their goals as a casual players before they decide to quit the game out of the pure repetitiveness of grinding for syndicate reputation

 

sorry but there are people out there that do have lives outside of this game....you cant call a feature within the game end game when it is only achievable through players who have all the time in the world to farm

 

sorry but honestly i feel that the players and this community are the ones who are truly being exploited as opposed to the players trying to "exploit" the game

Edited November 10, 2014 by sekushiiandee

[SoulEchelon]

Well said, OP.

 

I've been eyeing Viver myself, but I simply can't bring myself to abuse it. From what I've seen and heard, it's just straight up boring... and I'm not the type to revel in instant gratification anyway.

 

I like to work for my rewards. I actually feel good when I look at my standing and think to myself "I got all this simply by playing the game." Sure, it's tempting. I really would like to get my hands on that team energy restore and that grinlok mod. But I think I'll feel even more awesome when I eventually do get them knowing I didn't exploit.

[REDHOOOD]

1) The alternative to gaining experience on darksectors, where you will be directly feeding the cartel alliances. 

 

2) It is not an exploit to use a map the developers made. 

 

3) Let people play the way they want. It also makes no sense that other people having fun speed leveling on viver causes you frustration. 

[AM-Bunny]

^ sorry but why are you only pointing the finger towards viver?

 

there are many prime parts that require ridiculous grindfest to get lucky enough for 1 effing part

 

bo prime handle is an example, scindo blade is another......nyx prime bp when it first came out

 

so how is this any different?

 

I'm gonna say the difference here is trading. Anyone with 20 plat can get the things you've mentioned. How far is 20 plat going to get you in a syndicate? Also, some people get lucky and get the prime parts they need right away. There's no way to avoid the months of grind for syndicates.

[sekushiiandee]

I'm gonna say the difference here is trading. Anyone with 20 plat can get the things you've mentioned. How far is 20 plat going to get you in a syndicate? Also, some people get lucky and get the prime parts they need right away. There's no way to avoid the months of grind for syndicates.

^ even if we put the trading rule on it....what then?

 

 

someone still has to grind the reputation in order to receive these mods....taking away what viver, eris does for a lot of players would not help the economy in terms of these mods....

 

it would actually raise the prices of these mods because they will become a rarer commodity

[hukurokuju5]

exploit? more like efficiency.  

 

the question is whether or not this level of grind should exist.  

[kubbi]

I heavely disagree that you keep calling it an exploit. The map works fine. There are no bugs. Enemies spawn like they normally do. It isn't an exploit, its a clever strategy. If thats an exploit then Vauban who is present at every single infested mission is also an exploit.

Edited November 10, 2014 by kubbi

[Liminal]

I learned a long time ago not to try to dictate how others play a game. It's bad manners.

 

A "slippery slope" isn't enough to link someone else's playstyle to your possible future experience.

 

I don't farm Viver btw, but I don't have any problem with those who do. I don't because I know what's really to blame. I blame the game, not the player.

[LukeAura]

if you want some math on it.....non resource booster users gain on average 3.5k reputation from running viver, eris the correct way to farm for reputation

 

that takes about a 30-40 min run in order to gain this amount of reputation......advancing the first title for the a syndicate takes about 1 1/2 hours...if youre lucky....the second title gets boosted even higher than that to an estimated 7 hours...third is about 15 hours, fourth is 22 hours, and the final title is about 30 hours.

 

sorry but even if i were trying to rush....i do not have 77 hours to play this game even within one week or even two....not to mention the ridiculous cost for those mods as well which will ramp up the time required to farm ( and this is just based on viver, eris ONLY)...not to mention that each ability mod (which is 25k rep) takes about 7 hours to farm per card

 

keep in mind that this is an extremely rough estimate and only based on farming reputation on viver, eris

 

the reality is that it is near impossible for casual players to get anywhere near this number if it were not for this mission....even then it is highly unlikely that they would achieve their goals as a casual players before they decide to quit the game out of the pure repetitiveness of grinding for syndicate reputation

 

sorry but there are people out there that do have lives outside of this game....you cant call a feature within the game end game when it is only achievable through players who have all the time in the world to farm

 

sorry but honestly i feel that the players and this community are the ones who are truly being exploited as opposed to the players trying to "exploit" the game

And that only is if someone is farming efficiently. If they run only pick up games there points per run vary, maybe even only getting half as much as they should.

 

 

I'm gonna say the difference here is trading. Anyone with 20 plat can get the things you've mentioned. How far is 20 plat going to get you in a syndicate? Also, some people get lucky and get the prime parts they need right away. There's no way to avoid the months of grind for syndicates.

That 20 plat pricing is only possible after a not quite specific amount of time has past, it always starts high on those rare/new pieces. The timing for a decent price will be about the same on both. 

Trading should never be an excuse or argument when talking about the game either, it was always meant to be a fail safe in rng, not something that balances it.