The Problem Isn't Really Viver...

[[DE]Momaw]

It's actually starting to irritate me how so many people are already trying out new and exotic syndicate mods unlike anything we've seen in Warframe, but the only way to get there is to stop playing the game and instead just stand in one place pressing '4' a bunch.  I feel like I am being punished for NOT exploiting, because I know that DE won't do anything to people that have been participating in this.

 

So we end up with "petitions" for and against Viver grinding.  But they are kind of missing the point really.  The problem here isn't really Viver. The problem is that syndicates are going to take months for people to rank up without hardcore rep farming, and reputation is a straight up multiplier off the affinity you get for a mission, so the only thing that matters at all for reputation is how fast you can kill enemies. The gap between people who are playing the game normally and people who are just standing around pressing '4' is utterly and completely ludicrous as a result. We're talking like two orders of magnitude here. The reputation gains you get for playing normally e.g. doing missions-- even high level ones-- is insultingly low compared to targeted farming.

 

Reputation gains should be based on missions completed successfully, and whether you are using the equipment that your syndicate favors. Possibly including time engaged in combat to make endless type missions give a fair reward per play time and prevent speed-run Captures with submarine Lokis from being the new meta.  But absolutely not affinity earned.

 

And then to even the playing field and apologize for shipping Syndicates in such a state, run a script where every player who is not at least rank 4 in their highest faction gets their current reputation doubled and, if they qualify, upgraded in rank for free. Basically: If you exploited, then what's done is done and it's in the past and it would take too much effort to figure it out. But if you DIDN'T exploit, sorry for the unfair and frustrating faux pas, and here's a boost on your way.

[unknow99]

Yup,the problem is the required grindfest/farming simulator.

 

 

Again...

 

Edited November 10, 2014 by unknow99

[izzatuw]

That

Edited November 10, 2014 by izzatuw

[Radford_343]

Something needs to be done with the way the syndicate reputation is gained, thats for sure. Your suggestion seems balanced and fair, I'm all for it.

[taiiat]

ye.

Syndicates being just XP bars a few million long makes them a lot less interesting than they sounded.

 

Edit:

from broken relations between the Syndicates to progression of a system that sums up to nothing more than 'grind a s...load of XP' - results in me not giving a flying f... about the entire system.

Edited November 10, 2014 by taiiat

[TrinityPrime]

The problem is that syndicates are going to take months for people to rank up 

 

I look at syndicate rewards and feel this is exactly how it was intended to be regardless of what measurement is being used.

[Retrikaethan]

im still only rank 1 with the 3 of the syndicates im trying to raise. i havent done viver but i would like there to be an option to acquire rep in a way that is fun. it would be better if dailies were more rewarding, as is they're just small boosts to your total.

[Orbister]

You call it exploit but it is in fact coordinated cooperative strategical playing, which requires communication, respect and trust in your team mates, what gives you the right to punish people who are having fun and playing their frames to the fullest potential, it is not effortless, we need carefully built frames, built with dedication and care.

[inappropriatename5818]

I don't really care if people grind, I am just salty that the way they tried to solve the problem made no change for grinders, it just made it harder to get the keys fast because it's almost impossible to hold 4 points with the insane spawnrate Viver has.   

 

I grinded too, I never did it before the change but I tried it after the change and as expected EVERY MEMBER can set up a script to press a button and go AFK for 15 minutes. Therefore, the change didn't change anything for grinding, just the spot you stand while mashing a button.   

 

If they really want to fix Viver they need to fix the spawns like they are on other maps, enemies respawn INSTANTLY, that's why you can get 8000 kills in 1 wave.  Also, if they do fix it like that they should put the capture points back to where they were so it's not as annoying to farm keys as it is now.   

 

 

Another thing I would like to mention. Not punishing people is the right thing to do, because they did nothing wrong, they just found a very efficient way to kill enemies.  

I'm not just saying this because I did it too, I don't really care for REP and Syndicate rewards, I just use it to forma my weapons (2 weapons to 30 before timer hits 40% with booster on).  

[inappropriatename5818]

You call it exploit but it is in fact coordinated cooperative strategical playing, which requires communication, respect and trust in your team mates, what gives you the right to punish people who are having fun and playing their frames to the fullest potential, it is not effortless, we need carefully built frames, built with dedication and care.

 

I lol'd. But I do agree, it's not punishable if people find an efficient way to farm, it's not their fault if the map is broken.

[Lypiphera]

What they should have done is a token system. Complete a targeted mission and get a token. X tokens buys a sigil/mod/etc

[Orbister]

I lol'd. But I do agree, it's not punishable if people find an efficient way to farm, it's not their fault if the map is broken.

yea i exaggerated with "care" but i do believe that being a successful player requires to care enough to get the mods to build the most efficient frame possible, i even got all the arcane helmets for added tuning, if tuning is not even needed then there is a huge part of the game that is lost into oblivion.

[LukeAura]

You call it exploit but it is in fact coordinated cooperative strategical playing, which requires communication, respect and trust in your team mates, what gives you the right to punish people who are having fun and playing their frames to the fullest potential, it is not effortless, we need carefully built frames, built with dedication and care.

Contextual usage of the word exploit. His argument and solution still stand even if he swapped it out for 'coordinated four party focused grinding', it's just easier to call it exploit. And you really don't need carefully built frames, everyone knows how to do it, that's not at all the problem. All it takes is maxing out range and strength to the point two Excalibur/Mags can wipe out the entire map, while a trinity or two keeps everyone topped up on energy. 

This also isn't a punishment if you read his solution. It stops it from being used, but it doesn't punish the users of this tactic. It only repays those who didn't because it is unfair to them. 

 

[Orbister]

Contextual usage of the word exploit. His argument and solution still stand even if he swapped it out for 'coordinated four party focused grinding', it's just easier to call it exploit. And you really don't need carefully built frames, everyone knows how to do it, that's not at all the problem. All it takes is maxing out range and strength to the point two Excalibur/Mags can wipe out the entire map, while a trinity or two keeps everyone topped up on energy. 

This also isn't a punishment if you read his solution. It stops it from being used, but it doesn't punish the users of this tactic. It only repays those who didn't because it is unfair to them. 

 

before building them you actually need to acquire the mods, and rank them up, that's what i meant, well it is unfair to me if they punish me for being intelligent and pushing the game to the limits, and actually playing with synergy, instead of the usual flashy ninja mess where everyone only cares about killing more enemies.

[CreepinDeath]

What they should have done is a token system. Complete a targeted mission and get a token. X tokens buys a sigil/mod/etc

I like this idea. Maybe they could make a hybrid. Keep the rep system to rank up once to unlock the alerts and the alerts are used to award tokens. Also, as one alert is completed another one is generated in another part of the starchart.

[shut]

I look at syndicate rewards and feel this is exactly how it was intended to be regardless of what measurement is being used.

 

Agreed.

Syndicates were designed as longer-term goals, like reaching level 80 in Vindictus (which, after playing on a single character since open beta, I still have not done). Grinding your way up there relatively quickly is possible, but mind-numbingly tedious (and, in Vindictus' case, tends to yield fewer Skill Points).

The Vindictus devs, before they were replaced with empty-headed money-hungry baboons, designed the leveling system so that we could slowly work our way up there by simply enjoying the game. DE did this as well.

 

Unfortunately, WF players seem to just want rewards right now!, and resort to throwing flaming pitchforks everywhere whenever they can't get a desired item within a week (disregarding whether the devs intended that item to be obtainable within a week or not). I can totally see these complaints being valid for Prime farming and RNG and such, but not on a system whose very design revolves around pursuing long-term goals.

 

 

Are Syndicate rewards currently too long and tedious to obtain? Yes.

Should a system exist where we can max everything out in a day? No.

Edited November 11, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Lypiphera]

Agreed.

Syndicates were designed as longer-term goals, like reaching level 80 in Vindictus (which, after playing on a single character since open beta, I still have not done). Grinding your way up there relatively quickly is possible, but mind-numbingly tedious (and, in Vindictus' case, tends to yield fewer Skill Points). The devs designed the system so that we could slowly work our way up there by simply enjoying the game.

 

Unfortunately, players seem to just want rewards as fast as they can, and resort to throwing flaming pitchforks everywhere whenever they can't get a desired item within a week (disregarding whether the devs intended that item to be obtainable within a week or not). I can totally see these complaints being valid for Prime farming and RNG and such, but not on a system whose very design revolves around long-term goals.

 

The problem is that these are meant as long term goals and these people have already played the game long term. We are at the stage in the game where we should have grinded all that rep already, or at least a large portion of it.These grinds are virtually the only thing left to do other than farm mods/primes and sell them for platinum. They have all the weapons/frames/mods leveled and have to find something to do. Before it was the endless survival/defense, now it is this. How would you like your Vindictus character to be 80 one day only to find out the new patch rolled him back to 79 and you have to level a new character if you actually want 80?

[shut]

The problem is that these are meant as long term goals and these people have already played the game long term. We are at the stage in the game where we should have grinded all that rep already, or at least a large portion of it.These grinds are virtually the only thing left to do other than farm mods/primes and sell them for platinum. They have all the weapons/frames/mods leveled and have to find something to do. Before it was the endless survival/defense, now it is this. How would you like your Vindictus character to be 80 one day only to find out the new patch rolled him back to 79 and you have to level a new character if you actually want 80?

 

I don't see it that way, considering that we lost nothing from this update. De-leveling my Vindictus character would mean that I just wasted hours upon hours of precious time; however, releasing a new, level-independent system that simply takes a while to complete doesn't take anything from me at all (save for an understandably frustrating "there-goes-my-sense-of-accomplishment" feeling for completionists).

Then there's the fact that high-leveled players are able to rank up in this new system more quickly since they can blast through high-leveled missions easily (resulting in much more EXP than low-leveled players can hope to achieve in the near future), so they're already at a huge edge compared to the newbies.

 

But that aside, my problem with players who want instant gratification from the Syndicate system (not simply lessened grind, mind you) is that once they get their wish and "beat the Syndicate game", they'll just revert to complaining about the lack of long-term content when Syndicates were designed to be exactly that.

I'm not saying that Syndicates are perfect, of course, but I am in full support of it being treated as long-term/endgame material. Just not painfully long, as it currently is when Viver isn't involved.

Edited November 11, 2014 by SortaRandom

[LazyKnight]

 I feel like I am being punished for NOT exploiting, because I know that DE won't do anything to people that have been participating in this.

DE needs to remove reputation from affinity gains, and this is an essential change. As is, people will just burn themselves out trying as hard as they can to get as many kills as quickly as possible. This will not change, unless DE makes reputation easier to get, and the price of the items not so high that people feel the need to grind. 

 

I would not run viver, at all, if a generic high level mission gave around 1k points for 10-15 minutes of my time. I do not like viver whatsoever, but there is no real means to gain reputation outside hardcore grinding. I do even not want all the items, I just want 1-2 mods and a sigil, but I do not want to have to spend a year to get them. 

Edited November 11, 2014 by LazyKnight

[xNegikunx]

They're not missing the point, ignore rep for a second and just look at the xp gains.  Someone in my clan got 3 weapons from 0-30 simultaneously in one wave.  That is very much a problem unrelated to rep.

[REDHOOOD]

They're not missing the point, ignore rep for a second and just look at the xp gains.  Someone in my clan got 3 weapons from 0-30 simultaneously in one wave.  That is very much a problem unrelated to rep.

 

1 Wave is unlikely; you probably mean in one game, which is more pausable. With that being said, what is wrong with that? Why is spending an entire day in a DS defense or survival more acceptable that a 40 minute game in Viver? 

[__Kanade__]

I just gave up on the Syndicate feature after seeing how much xp is needed, I'm not on Warframe very often, I probably do one 10-15 minute survival before I call it quits for the day.

 

DE just keeps hiding everything behind this massive wall of grind that they promised were going to reduce. I don't play this game often because when I get on, I'm not playing a game, I'm playing an exagerrated sci-fi farming simulator.

 

Updates 1-6: You need this to get that <-- as it should've been and how many MMO's still work.

Updates 7-9: Now that you have this, you need to get that.

Updates 10+: So you have that, but now you need more of this and that and we also put a timer on this before it expires. So you need to get that before this expires or you'll see all your hard work thrown away just like that.

[TinFoilMkIV]

While I do agree there's an issue with some missions and methods being leagues better than others at rep/affinity gain, I personally think the affinity to rep system itself is allright. Wouldn't hurt to make some tweaks to it but as it stands it's not terrible. In my opinion what we really need is more methods to gain rep. Affinity conversion should be the basic method but we need more than that.

 

With Syndicates being new and quite seeming a basic system that's still a work in progress, now is the time for us the players to come together and let DE know where we want to go with this. For anyone willing to do some reading there's a pretty good thread with discussion on syndicate suggestions and such over here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/340692-refining-the-syndicate-system/

[xNegikunx]

1 Wave is unlikely; you probably mean in one game, which is more pausable. With that being said, what is wrong with that? Why is spending an entire day in a DS defense or survival more acceptable that a 40 minute game in Viver? 

 

It was one wave.

[izzatuw]

It was one wave.

Capping one point lets this possible but the requirements are not noob friendly.

An Excal, Trinity/Limbo and a Mag. All of them requiring to use corrupted mods and energy pads. You'd also need good communication.

The issue is not Viver, it's this whole rep system bullcrap