The Community Has Viver Fever, And The Only Cure Is...

[Void_Vis_Vires]

Excuse my argumentively arbitrary and capriciousnessness but I like this other thread better.

 

 

 

I was going to post this but you beat me to it haah.  I feel like the linked tread addresses these issues is a much more sustainable way.  I feel like the OP is more of a reaction to the current state of viver and the linked post is more of a rework that seems to allow the community and the devs to meet in the middle and could make things better in the long run.

[CaptainJohnson]

I agree that Viver is not the problem, but Syndicates themselves. I'm not sure if a set amount per wave is the best solution, because I think it'll just lead to a new use of exploits to rush through the mission as quickly as possible and won't really address the issue. There'll just be another exploit to deal with, ad infinitum. Viver is maybe a bit small, but imo Cerberus is too large. It basically encourages using four Rhinos to stomp the points and stay alive for as long as possible while everyone does their own thing. You might as well just play solo then, honestly, and that defeats the point of it entirely.

 

I agree that the linked thread deals with the issue in a more sustainable way. I don't agree with it entirely, but it's got a number of good points.

 

Also, please don't try to get Excalibur's Radial Javelin nerfed to LoS. He doesn't need it, and the fact that it's not LoS is what makes it vital to his ability kit. It fills the niche that Radial Blind misses now that RB is obstructed by walls and the like (which is something I totally agree with, by the way). You could make a better argument for Crush, but even then, the abilities are not that great. This is one of the only times I've even seen those two abilities used effectively. Crush is still basically trash-tier, so trying to get it nerfed because of one way it's abused is ridiculous. If it's going to be changed to LoS, it's gotta be reworked in its entirety, too.

[tocorro]

#3

#4

This I'm fine with.

 

Changing map - nope.

Making all abilitis LoS - hehe You know that Loki and other would cry their eyes out ?

[vaugahn]

Did they? I don't remember that.

 

I'm personally fine with LoS on powers, as long as it is across the board and leaves some provision for hitting over cover.

 

Radial Blind got changed to LoS a few weeks ago. There was lots of QQ over it.

 

I think all radial abilities should get it, barring a select few.

[AlienOvermind]

Now if DE would use one of OP's ideas, it's gonna be №2. I feel so confident about this, that I almost ready to bet Bo Prime Handle on it.

[(PSN)M0v1ng_T4RG3T_-]

For starters what is this Viver?

[Archistopheles]

People have called it Xini, ODD, 0% tax Sechura, Loot Cave, Pistol/Knife Only Operation Locker, Normal Kiting, Quad-kiting, Act 4 chest farming, and the Secret Cow Level.

Farming. Farming Never Changes. Go on DE, you can change whatever you want. Players will *always and forever* find the path of least resistance. Nobody likes slow grind games.

Viver made/makes me happy. I don't think the strategy people use is fun, but the reward is actually worth my time. It makes me want to play. It makes me feel accomplished after each run, instead of frustrated - as I stated in my previous thread.

Don't strangle, don't throttle, don't restrict. Let players be EXTREME. That's all I ask.

[sekushiiandee]

People have called it Xini, ODD, 0% tax Sechura, Loot Cave, Pistol/Knife Only Operation Locker, Normal Kiting, Quad-kiting, Act 4 chest farming, and the Secret Cow Level.

Farming. Farming Never Changes. Go on DE, you can change whatever you want. Players will *always and forever* find the path of least resistance. Nobody likes slow grind games.

Viver made/makes me happy. I don't think the strategy people use is fun, but the reward is actually worth my time. It makes me want to play. It makes me feel accomplished after each run, instead of frustrated - as I stated in my previous thread.

Don't strangle, don't throttle, don't restrict. Let players be EXTREME. That's all I ask.

^ agreed. but it would be nice if they lowered syndicate rep requirements as well =P

[Petersheikah]

I can agree with Viver nerf, but first you have to fix the Syndicate reputation system. Also, I don't think that nerfing 4 warframes just for one mission is the best way to kill this "Viver Fever".

Excalibur was a balanced warframe, then DE buffed it and now it's on par with these killing machines like Nova.

Mag has been understimated forever, just why do you have to ruin her only advantage? How can she kill corpuses if 90% of them are in small ships with claustrophobic rooms? Removing powers going through wall would mean actually kill Mag's efficency.

Also, Trinity has been already nerfed A LOT since her first power set, just why would you nerf again a balanced and good frame when most of player just don't care about her and go with Rhino, Valkyr or Nova?

 

Sorry, but no +1 for you <-<

[TrinityPrime]

If the history of warframe farming nerfs has taught me anything it's that the grind only gets worse, not better.

[Hypernaut1]

Am i the only one that DOESN't want higher sigils be required to earn more rep? i like the fact that they're just cosmetic, I dont want to be forced to give up my starter sigil for later ones. 

 

If anything. they should just make it be a rep upgrade to ALL sigils owned when you buy the next tier.

[Petersheikah]

Am i the only one that DOESN't want higher sigils be required to earn more rep? i like the fact that they're just cosmetic, I dont want to be forced to give up my starter sigil for later ones. 

 

If anything. they should just make it be a rep upgrade to ALL sigils owned when you buy the next tier.

 

I'd like to see multipliers on Sigils, but I'd love seeing that multiplier scaling with Syndicate ranks. +1

[Genji]

#4 is the only one that I agree with. I'm really tired of nerfing around this whole syndicate thing. Seriously I'm done with nerfs in general, I am open to change though.

[CY13ERPUNK]

They tried that, everyone hated it. IIRC there were even people saying LoS would kill the game.

 

Personally, I think it's the best solution. It encourages players to actually get into combat with opponents.

 

^^^^^^^^^ this, i just wish that more ppl understood that tgt caps and LoS is the best solution for a majority of the 'press 4 to win' powers, i was sad that Excal's rad jav wasn't given punchthrough, but instead turned into just another brainless mass dmg aoe =[

 

DE could design the massive AoE powers to have reasonable tgt caps, and/or reasonable dmg dropoff at further ranges, but they seem to be okay with the game becoming more and more grindy and 'how many mobs can i destroy with the press of 1 button' (unless you want to grind for over an hour in an endless mission, to then encounter bullet-sponge type enemies instead...)

 

and +1 OP

[Pendragon1951]

My only issue, though it makes logical sense, in regards to powers not going through walls, what you end up doing is pretty much making mods like stretch and overextended obsolete. The whole point of those mods is to give you greater range. Besides you know as well as I do Warframe does not work on logic, here is two examples, why is Ember affected by fire, why is Frost affected by cold. As you can see logic does not play a big part in Warframe, but on the most part good post:)

[BrazilianJoe]

I don't agree with powers 3 and 4 not passing walls and obstacles. They are top-tier for a reason. 

 

1 and 2 are fair game for LoS limits though. 

 

If the Syndicate Reputation Reward reward is changed to (10 * average enemy level for the mission), cumulative for infinite missions and taking into account enemy level increase per interceprion message/5min survival/defense 5 waves, it would already go a long way towards fixing the system. 

 

Add a conclave modifier calculated as a function of enemy level to give a reputation multiplier, if the player goes in with low conclave ratings. Because weaker frame against high level enemies = more badassery = more reputation. 

[WanderoftheAether]

If everyone is rushing to some make use of an exploit it's because they're sick of the daily farm and the community is constantly looking for ways to alleviate that. It's not an issue with Viver but the game's experience and reputation grind and we need to focus on those mechanics we slog through daily instead of one planet.

^ Agreed

[direcyphre]

Viver is a great classic map. They've already spread the points apart, so I'm not sure how a large map would make it at all enjoyable.

 

Powers not going through walls mostly defeats the purpose of all AOE abilities. If you wanted to just kill all enemies down a particular hallway, you wouldn't even need an AOE attack in the first place. Since most enemies hide behind cover, it would severely reduce the effectiveness of any ability. I mean I get that you think that AOE Nukes are the problem with Viver or other farms, but changing ultimate abilities just because they kill too much is a little silly.

 

The reputation system has to work on something that is universal, thus Affinity gained. Making some sort of special reward wouldn't really help anything because it would only be a matter of time before someone figured out how to 'game the game' as it were.

 

Bonuses for Sigils are mostly an entirely different subject, but with too little of a bonus, they don't really become useful. If you're not gaining a thousand a run (in total), it's still taking the same amount of time to reach the next rank, or afford the Sydnicate mod you were after. Progressive bonuses via sigil tier would definitely make people want to spend their points on them, otherwise they would have wasted thousands to not have reaped enough to have afforded their cost of purchase in the first place.

 

Ultimately Viver is still not the issue, but it seems to be a lightning rod for everyone who wants to blame something. Doesn't matter what they change or nerf, someone is going to figure out the fastest way to gain what it is they are after. The problem currently is that the theoretical usage of Syndicates would have been viable if it was a system implemented a year ago. If we all had syndicates to join when we first started playing (before your 1000 hours of playtime), point gain wouldn't be your end goal, since you'd be gaining at a regular rate as you played the game.

[Kuari]

Tough topic for a reason, do you Nerf the frames and there powers or do you Nerf the planet itself, or perhaps you change the system.

 

Personally I think that instead of nerfing at all they should change the system, the mission is fine as are the frames, and LoS would ruin a lot of frames and everyone would be back to only ever running rhino. Nova's ult suddenly can't hit anything if a box is in the way, Vauban's Bastille unable to CC through a simple box, etc.

LoS would make it back to the simple days of rhino speed runs or loki speed runs with invisibility, and everyone would complain.

I think that it's the system in place for the reputation, I've been in since alpha and I myself run Viver for rep, it's better then anything else just because we can farm is so well, but if the system were changed and something better shown then I would just switch to that.
It's not abusing it that much, some of us just want to play with the new pretty things and now have to grind for it since we've been in the game for so long.
Plus, it does take someone who's played a lot and have the gear and mods to even farm it, you can't just do it from the very beginning.

As I see it, the Syndicates are more for new players to have another neat aspect to the game to play with as they play though it and grind up in levels and gear, not much meant for us old players who have already gotten all the best stuff and are just looking for something to do with it other then grind for alittle more.

 

[Elvang]

As others have said repeatedly, here and elsewhere: Viver isn't the issue, its a sympton of a deeper problem with Syndicates, and grinding in general (not going to expand upon them here, its been brought up more frequently, more eloquently, and ignored elsewhere). The first two points will do nothing to help the frustration caused by it, and will in fact increase it. The third ends up leading back to the issues of speed running missions and scaling/ability issues with long duration missions. The fourth point has problems of its own; its the exact same issue that led to DE removing stats from alternate helms. They didn't want stats tied to cosmetics. Additionally, the majority of the grind is still there even if the sigils get rep bonuses, as they are locked behind ranks to begin with (its also unlikely that the bonus they give will offset the price in rep to make it more efficient to grab that sigil rather than just keep farming towards rank 5 to access mods).

Edited November 11, 2014 by Elvang

[Sitchrea]

Did they? I don't remember that.

 

I'm personally fine with LoS on powers, as long as it is across the board and leaves some provision for hitting over cover.

They tried doing that to abilities once...

 

To say that "Rage" is what followed (Because abilities would hit nothing whatsoever, even with smart tracking) would be an understatement.

[KaynArgyr]

To be utterly honest, I think that the problem lies within the Syndicate system rather than Viver itself...

 

I have farmed Viver too and, for how much rewarding the system may be, it's also boring... Borderline to frustration...

 

It's something one would do only if put under the most extreme circumstances, in my case to spite certain forum users who felt being in right to claim what's better for me, or to reap benefits out of it.

 

Seriously each wave of Viver, done with the exploit, equates to 20+ minutes of pressing they key 4 while sitting in a spot. Sometimes being killed by the few monsters that remains after 100% is reached and experience lag-spikes for collecting hundreds of mods.

 

Rinse and repeat.

 

Why one does that?

 

To begin, because some of the syndicate mods can be sold for a lot... An awful lot.

 

Also you can easily master and forma weapons in there... One wave may easily equate to going from unranked to 30.

 

Finally because some players, people who have Warframe\Weapons maxed and forma'ed. Would find completely unchallenging having to go through Earth missions to get a meager 600 Reputation. Viver done the right way can easily give you the same amount in a couple of waves.

 

So, how many kind of people runs Viver with the exploit?

 

Multiple kinds...

 

The ones that want to hoard the Syndicate mods and make profit...

 

The ones that want to experience this new content without waiting months...

 

The ones that are raking up Masteries and Challenges...

 

The ones that are Forma'ing their weapons...

 

What the recent hotfix had changed for these people?

 

Nothing much, really... The point of Viver was to collect absurd reputation, the drops were just an extra, and they can still do it...

 

Who cares about losing a rare mod when I can sell the Mirage mod for 250 plat? I can use these plats to buy money, mods and everything I may need... Someone spoke about a run of about 48k Reputation. Which equates to almost 2 Syndicate Mods. Almost 500 plats.

 

But why people spends 250 plat on a mod? 

 

The only answer that comes to my mind is: Because it feel painful to farm it with the current reputations rewards.

 

I love u15, it gave us two great contents... The Syndicates and the Archwings...

 

I farmed my own Elytron, Onorix and Corvas out of it, cleared all the missions...

 

But Archwings are still in the works, something I understand. But until more Archwing modes will be added, people is probably going to do them as some sort of distraction.

 

Syndicates are a long run but, at the same time, the content with the most enjoyable features...

 

It feels natural to me that the players would rather try to achieve what they can in Syndicates rather than waiting for the time needed to complete them AND Archwings being developed...

 

What to do?

 

A good solution imho would be some Archwing event that gave out Archwing mods and some reputation for the Syndicates. An Archwing boss maybe to be included in further missions, maybe someone that attacks the Tenno at the end of a mission and forces them to fight him on AWs like in the quest-line we had to aquire them.

 

If reading this, DE, you don't need to make things easier for the Syndicate.

 

You need to make them fun...

[StarScribe]

Nice, I like the op. At least that would make surviving t4s for longer be worth it. (shame on r5 core nerf tho)

[Sixty5]

Want to know how to fix Viver?

Give enemies a 10-second spawn immunity to powers.

This severely reduces the potential kill rates, but only for power farming runs.

Why this over anything else? Because it has little to no impact upon people playing the game normally, and also stops people from just shifting to another node.

[AXCrusnik]

Nobody's forcing you to play Viver, so why are you trying to ruin things for people who don't have time to spend months or years grinding rep through normal missions? 

 

Seriously. Viver is fine as it is. DE already nerfed it once by moving the towers, it doesn't need another nerf. Right now, the expected sacrifice of time and rare items (potatos) for syndicates is way out of whack with the rewards - it's simply not worth it for anyone who doesn't really like the affected weapons/frames or the sigils they're offering. The viver farm is the only way to make the amazingly bad rewards for syndicates tolerable.

 

And I say this as someone who has only done Viver once. :|

As a person who's done Viver more times than I like to admit... I agree with OP. He's not trying to "ruin it for everyone who doesn't want to wait." He's trying to create a happy medium. Viver Rep farming... a PROPER Viver Rep farm consists of the entire team using macros to spam their abilities for up to hours at a time... Wouldn't you rather do a NORMAL INTERCEPTION? and get close to the same rewards.

Edited November 11, 2014 by AXCrusnik