The Community Has Viver Fever, And The Only Cure Is...

[Garuger]

Let me just stop you right here...as a fellow "vet" (whatever that means), I'm almost embarrassed that you think Viver was in any way challenging. 

 

Rule of thumb: any game mode that can be played by a macro is not a challenge.

By challenging i meant in term that you had to be team and have a very good synergy to work and you do not get that anywhere else

[Archistopheles]

Rule of thumb:

One cannot impale thy Corpus with a Radial Javelin wider than the width of one's thumb.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Archistopheles

[Elvang]

He's eager to dump the blame on veterans, but what people aren't realizing here is that an exploit doesn't help anyone. Use of exploits make it harder to diagnose the actual problem, and obfuscate potential solutions. 

Honestly, the underlying problems are exposed and brought up all the time on the forums. They are brought up frequently in calls such as this to nerf viver. The problem isn't that everyone running the exploit is hiding the problem, its that DE ignores them because often they are profitable and focuses on bandaids for workarounds. Also, there was lots of 'crying' over Arcane helms, on both sides. It still comes up, everytime some new player finds out about Vanguard, wants it, and finds out its 200 plat.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Elvang

[Cpl_Facehugger]

Nobody cried over arcane helms..

 

Wait, what? There were tons of complaints about statted helms. Once the arcane/statless change hit there were still buttmad people who wanted no stats on helms ever, even legacy helms like arcanes. There are *still* complaints about how vets still have their arcane helms. :\

 

As a person who's done Viver more times than I like to admit... I agree with OP. He's not trying to "ruin it for everyone who doesn't want to wait." He's trying to create a happy medium. Viver Rep farming... a PROPER Viver Rep farm consists of the entire team using macros to spam their abilities for up to hours at a time... Wouldn't you rather do a NORMAL INTERCEPTION? and get close to the same rewards.

 

Sure. Except, just one problem: His suggestions don't do that. He's talking about stuff like nerfing ults so they don't go through walls and such. If he was just suggesting rebalancing the rep gain so you get more rep by going to higher waves, that'd be totally fine. I'd be behind him 100%. But he isn't. He's suggesting making the map larger (if I wanted a larger map, I'd just go to Cerberus - Pluto. I don't, because frankly I don't find such a huge interception map fun when I'm trying to rank up my syndicate.), as well as meganerfing caster frames.

[kazeyama]

Viver introduced something i seeked as a vet a challenge / reward / skill and co - op .None of this excist in the warframe at the moment with that comob . The team should be able to co op in order to win and had to have the proper mods if 1 was not good the whole think crumbled that does not excist in warframe

 

I see this argument brought up but really fail to see the "skill" involved in this type of farming. Simply owning a frame and the right mods doesn't equate to skill and teamwork. Standing in one spot and spamming an ability until everything is dead doesn't equal skill or teamwork. Viver isn't a T4 mission, Viver isn't a nightmare mode or a raid boss. Once you have the right frames and know where to stand all cooperation or skill goes out the window. I don't know how people view team synergy and cooperation in the same light as the fact that this makes 80% of the frames and builds obsolete in favor of a select few that most players don't even have. 

 

Viver is an example of the rich getting richer because the people mainly playing it are the die hard people who have all of the mods and frames maxed already. For a new player they are never going to get there because the rep system is so skewed against them due to the grind. 

 

If rep gains are readjusted based on wave/enemy level and the rep bonus for alerts are bumped up to where they should be you won't be missing Viver. If you got 500 rep baseline from a regular mission instead of 50 would you really still insist on the mindless grind? 

 

If they don't fix the rep system guess what. People grinding Viver will have all the syndicate mods in a few weeks and then they will go back to complaining on these same forums about how DE never does anything for end game players and that the rep grind was too easy and they have nothing to do. Like if DE originally pitched the idea of syndicates as

 

"You sit in one mission with a specific group of frames and spam abilities. It's mindless and only effects the top players. You can grind enough rep for whatever mod you want and max your rank in a few missions. We think that players will really look forward to this." 

 

Would you honestly be happy with that? It amazes me how game communities oftentimes with the intention of drawing the most out of a game end up ruining it for themselves at the same time. Stuff like this happens in every major online game and it almost always gets patched or removed or reworked yet people still can't have the foresight or hindsight to realize when they are being unreasonable. 

[Lynxh]

I just wanna vent about one particular argument people have been using.

The whole "Viver is a symphton of a deeper problem" polint of view.

 

Fact is that people will always find the fastest way to grind to get something. Regardless if the grind is long or not. So to imply that the rep requirements/gain are the cause of this even being a thing is ridiculous to me.

 

The problem is that people want these items rather sooner then later, and currently we have a lot of players who want them now either "just cause" or because they don't have anything else to work towards. A lot of people who play this game do it with "collecting" as a drive. The whole carrot on a stick thing. A lot of vets in particular are in this position, the total investment needed to get anywhere with syndicates can be a bit of a nut cracker after already having spend so much hours.

 

Do I think Viver needs changing? Only on the front of making it less macro friendly. Though I want that for all the maps regardless.

Personally, it's irrelevant to me. I don't play to get rep, I just get rep as I play. This means it's gonna take me a good long while, but I'm perfectly fine with that. None of the syndicate offers are required or critical. To me, they are fun quirky stuff you get to purchase in the long run as you play the game. 

 

Grinders will grind, people are great at finding the fastest way to get something with the least amount of effort. Nothing wrong with that. But I think it's a good point to reevaluate why you even play a game when the only thing that drives you is getting the shiny, and anything that bars your way is heresy.

 

P.S That's not to say the rep system doesn't need changing btw

[Jeigo]

Basing rep off of anything other than affinity seems like a good start. Why not make it a mission reward similar to credits? Higher level missions=higher rep while endless missions accumulate rep the longer you go. Playing the modes we like should be as rewarding as the ones we don't(because everyone has different taste).

 

Sure, people will want to speed run but I say let them try. Speedrunning high level mobs isn't always so straightforward and if you can pull it off well then you honestly earned it. Lesser of two evils anyway you slice it.

[Lost_Cartographer]

I just wanna vent about one particular argument people have been using.

The whole "Viver is a symphton of a deeper problem" polint of view.

 

Fact is that people will always find the fastest way to grind to get something. Regardless if the grind is long or not. So to imply that the rep requirements/gain are the cause of this even being a thing is ridiculous to me.

 

The problem is that people want these items rather sooner then later, and currently we have a lot of players who want them now either "just cause" or because they don't have anything else to work towards. A lot of people who play this game do it with "collecting" as a drive. The whole carrot on a stick thing. A lot of vets in particular are in this position, the total investment needed to get anywhere with syndicates can be a bit of a nut cracker after already having spend so much hours.

 

Do I think Viver needs changing? Only on the front of making it less macro friendly. Though I want that for all the maps regardless.

Personally, it's irrelevant to me. I don't play to get rep, I just get rep as I play. This means it's gonna take me a good long while, but I'm perfectly fine with that. None of the syndicate offers are required or critical. To me, they are fun quirky stuff you get to purchase in the long run as you play the game. 

 

Grinders will grind, people are great at finding the fastest way to get something with the least amount of effort. Nothing wrong with that. But I think it's a good point to reevaluate why you even play a game when the only thing that drives you is getting the shiny, and anything that bars your way is heresy.

 

P.S That's not to say the rep system doesn't need changing btw

 

I like this post because it actually addresses the REAL issue: people being people.  More specifically, people playing for reasons that insinuate they're no longer even playing for the joy of playing.

 

Coincidentally, anything that inconveniences the players to slow down their rep grinding will get backlash.  That's the nature of the beast.  Looking for an answer that won't upset the grinders is like trying to feed a carnivorous animal meat without actually killing anything.  Good luck with that.

 

 Requiring LoS on ALL AoE's?  That will get backlash, but it's also a logical answer.  Shifting the rep gain to constant streams of syndicate alerts.  That's probably the most immersive idea.  Don't know why the Perrin Sequence is so upset I'm shooting Grineer at my leisure just because I'm parading around with a glowing Saturn and a Moon tattooed to my Excalibur's chest.  And here DE had the perfect opportunity to get players into doing the other mission types for reasons beyond unlocking a node... shame they're missing that opportunity *HINT HINT.*  Plus, I personally love doing the syndicate alerts.  It feels like I'm actually fighting FOR the syndicate.  There's a thread somewhere that's conceptualizing lines for the syndicate liason's to be our missions guides - I definitely want to see that become reality in game.

 

Finally, tying the rep pay out to mission level and completion is another, albeit slippery answer.  Endless mode calculations could very well make running an endless mission either a waste of time or again the most efficient method (though at least DE can fine tune the income.)

 

Of course, DE could also just set a spawn limit for endless modes.  Only X many guys will spawn on wave one of a intercept for example.  Potentially a bit dull even for normal players, but it would fairly limit rep income without sacrificing anything else.

 

To be frank, while I have no problem with power reping on Viver, I can understand if DE doesn't want people grabbing everything a Syndicate has to offer within a week or two, and for every new item to be snagged after two days.  The Syndicate system IS designed to be a lengthy grind, like it or not.  It's supposed to feel like an investment, with systems in place to even strongly encourage loyalty.  The reputation system is not broken, peoples expectations are just still stuck back in 2008, where the prevailing joke of the day was that logging in got you epics.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Littleman88

[FATEdPondera]

Okay, so maybe idea 2 wasn't my best idea. Struck that through, but I'm seeing that making the syndicate points system be round/time survived has some merit. I'll be starting a new thread about that specifically in fan concepts later.

 

But as for right now, look, I'm not arguing about the grind, or skills, or who is better than who because they have a shiny name plate attached to their name, but whenever you have a game mode where you can get stupidly massive rewards just from spamming 4 over and over again instead of actually fighting something, you can't help but to admit that the game has a bit of a problem.

 

One other idea I had that I KNOW is going to get some hate for is.....simply delete Viver. :) problem solved.

[RoninJed]

I wish DE would try to fix other major issues before this...I mean the fact that they are already trying fix/nerf this shows whats top priority for DE...keeping and making more grind walls. Can we trade elytron parts? Oh no we can't because...I don't know maybe it's to keep us grinding for the new content or they want us to pay for it. They've been working on (and hyping) archwings for a long time so you would think simple problems like this wouldn't or shouldn't be an issue...but they are. We can't use the beta excuse forever can we?

[Archistopheles]

I wish DE would try to fix other major issues before this...I mean the fact that they are already trying fix/nerf this shows whats top priority for DE...keeping and making more grind walls.

To be fair, they have quickly fixed other problems that have to do with any type of game-breaking bug, crash-causing bug, or severely incorrect price/value.

But yes, the bugs that would be overly beneficial for players are smashed quicker than small things like making parts tradeable, or finally getting around to fixing Miter.

[Lost_Cartographer]

To be fair, they have quickly fixed other problems that have to do with any type of game-breaking bug, crash-causing bug, or severely incorrect price/value.

But yes, the bugs that would be overly beneficial for players are smashed quicker than small things like making parts tradeable, or finally getting around to fixing Miter.

 

This is because for people that focus on "beating" the game, there's a good chance that player will go on hiatus/quit when they have nothing left to do.

 

Minor inconveniences and small bugs however are things fans will simply grit their teeth and power through, even though they're tolerating things they really shouldn't have to.

[kazeyama]

 

 

One other idea I had that I KNOW is going to get some hate for is.....simply delete Viver. :) problem solved.

I would love this idea actually. Tie it into the lore and have the new grineer superweapon wipe out the entire area . Or have an infestation take it out. Make it a whole in game event it would be an awesome way to solve a problem and give more lore. I mean it has an infinite supply of corpus resources apparently so might as well nuke it if you are a grineer.

[FATEdPondera]

I would love this idea actually. Tie it into the lore and have the new grineer superweapon wipe out the entire area . Or have an infestation take it out. Make it a whole in game event it would be an awesome way to solve a problem and give more lore. I mean it has an infinite supply of corpus resources apparently so might as well nuke it if you are a grineer.

 

Now that I think about it seriously, that WOULD make sense. I mean, how many Corpus have we killed in the past week alone? Their defenses are in shambles, and even if Alad V has found some way to control them, at their core, the infested have no loyalty to anyone but the hive. They would gladly finish Viver off for us.

[Dead10ck]

Threads like this are the reason we can't have nice things. If you don't like viver, don't go there. Personally I like it, because it's a nice challenge and speeds up the unbearably long process of syndicate farming.

[HAYABU5A]

just change the viver tileset to the cerberus one problem solved 

 

all the nolifer farmers are doing us a favor , while they work hard grinding their lives away and devaluing all of the tradable syndicate rewards we get to sit back and relax and enjoy the super cheap aug mods flooding the market

[Personwithhat]

lol, fine post but as far as ic an tell all he did was restate what over 10 threads have been discussing, why did this thread get noticed and the others didnt? XD

[4MostlyHarmless2]

Tie it into the lore and have the new grineer superweapon wipe out the entire area . 

Then have the Tenno scramble in a futile attempt to save Viver

[Gr3vi3R]

I like Options 3 a lot, it will stop grind abuse and it will work honestly for everyone.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Gr3vi3R

[GildedTuna]

Only reason the Viver farming came to be was because players found a very steep grind wall. So they did what players do best, find the best and most effective way to climb it.

 

Also rep should be based off of what missions you do, not affinity. T4 Survival (hardest survival) in my opinion should be the top giver for affinity and then base everything else around that.

Edited November 12, 2014 by LuxLo

[ROXXXY]

I took 2 week to get from 0-5000 reputation just by doing normal missions. The I see High level guys from Viver get like 20,000 reputation just in 1 run.

[birdei]

I took 2 week to get from 0-5000 reputation just by doing normal missions. The I see High level guys from Viver get like 20,000 reputation just in 1 run.

 

and that is whats wrong with the syndicate reputation system. at your rate it will take 2 months to get 20k points to rank up to 2. then another 4 months to reach rank 3. then another 8 months to reach rank 4....

Edited November 12, 2014 by birdei

[Cryyos]

I personally think that the powers not going through walls should only apply to certain powers. For example excals radial javelin could still hit enemies through walls but with reduced damage as the javelin had to punch through a steel wall. Except powers like overload should still go through unmitigated as it is a current of electricity and travels through the metal walls that are in corpus tilesets.

[-GG-KHAOS-PROTOGENOI]

Nerf the whole game, to many players are taking advantage of a good time lol. Viver is just one spot on the map ppl have a hard-on for right now, once it's nerf'd there will be another "vivier" found. Is DE really going to stop players at each corner just to stop them from getting good points, and be forced to run 3hr missions to get a couple hundred points??

[TrinityPrime]

Viver has been such a strong topic.  How about a PvPvE Event conflict to determine whether to keep the node or see it obliterated with rewards for either choice