[Aerial Melee] Vanguard Rhinos Brandishing Scindos Sent Flying Across Valleys And Skies Like Little Birdies In A Springful Afternoon

[dadaddadada]

IMHO, directional aerial melee is bad in so many aspects it hurts my feelings.

They trash any short range mobility power such as superjump, like if it wasn't underused already.
They bury parkour, coptering killed it but its corpse hasn't been disposed of yet.

In extreme cases, such as with most heavy melee weapons, the momentum you get from aerial attacks is so ludicrous that they rape even long range mobility powers like rip-line, wormhole and Tail wind.
Why would you waste energy when with a handful of fast-regen stamina points you get almost as good results?

I will now present here my solution to unlock this situation.

1) remove the current aerial attacks.
2) slide melee attacks should only be triggered while on ground.
3) make all wallrunning faster by 30% minimum for all warframes. seriously. It's that simple.
4) implement the melee augment system exposed below.

Re-formaing melee

- Up-down animation bending

Ok then, we don't have anymore aerial attacks. How do we kill ospreys?
Ospreys usually float slightly above you, but definitely never realistically unreachable given the height of the warframes.
But because the melee animations can't bend up nor down, it gets awkward to not being able to hit an enemy two stairsteps below you.

So this is straightforward. Make melee attack animations bend slightly up or down along the spine depending on the vertical position of the reticle.
The animations don't even need to be reworked, even a freedom angle of 20° up and 20° down coded directly on the skeletal animations may be enough.

This was simple and fool-proof. How about we get significantly more serious?

- Long range flying units and... let's "close the gap" already

This solution answers the question "how would I implement a ranged melee attack which cannot be exploited for mere movement?".

Listen here. If an enemy is from 5 meters to 15 meters ahead of you and you press melee while having him in the reticle, you perform an auto-jump-dive onto said enemy.
Lets elaborate better, with a FAQ.

What is a "auto-jump-dive"?
Its a generic term that indicates any animation that makes your warframe jump/move quickly in direction of the enemy on lock-on and performs automatically a first guaranteed quick attack on him.
Similar to Ash's Teleport, but not completely instantaneous, with limited range and cannot target non-enemies.
Also applies to flying enemies. Booyah.

Why from 5m minimum?
Because closer than 5 meters is already "in melee range" and it would be silly to perform such an elaborate move on an enemy hugging your face.
For flying units closer than 5 meter please refer to the "Up-down animation bending" section above.

What is the shape of the range?
It is cylindrical, not spherical. Similar to bastille. This helps for locking flying enemies being in a ~45° angle above you.

It may be tricky to have an enemy on reticle in a heavy-battling situation. Targeting should be forgiving but has to be calibrated to prevent ambiguity.

Jump-diving attacks can be activated in mid-air, selecting slam attacks accordingly following the current aim down -> slam attack logic.


- And... Brace for it...

Would give wall attacks a sense to exist.

[MotherofHermes]

This does sound correct. wall run always did feel too slow. the only weapon that the new air dashes make sense with is the jat kittag because it's a freaking rocket attached to a hammer. 

[zavienh5]

too lazy to read so +1

[dadaddadada]

the only weapon that the new air dashes make sense with is the jat kittag because it's a freaking rocket attached to a hammer. 

 

That's a nice point, can't really argue with that.

 

too lazy to read so +1

 

Well thank you i guess.

[Jinryusai]

Think of directional melee as air dash and double jump.

 

Those two concepts exists and I don't see why Warframe can't have it considering the "Space NINJA" concept, futuristic setting, battle suits that do amazing things, wall running, etc.

 

So directional melee makes sense.

 

This stuff even made sense in Megaman X games and the Zero ones.

 

You'll simply have to accept air dashing and triple jump...

 

it's not going anywhere and neither slash air sliding. Those do add a new dimension to this game and make things more interesting reaching upper platforms easier w/o finding the right wall or steps, etc. and makes things smoother.

[Noble_Cactus]

What is a "auto-jump-dive"?

Its a generic term that indicates any animation that makes your warframe jump/move quickly in direction of the enemy on lock-on and performs automatically a first guaranteed quick attack on him.

Similar to Ash's Teleport, but not completely instantaneous, with limited range and cannot target non-enemies.

Also applies to flying enemies. Booyah.

 

 

 

Considering how Archwings already have a lock-on mechanic in place when it comes to melee, I don't see this being too difficult to implement. Maybe.

 

I think coptering has enough of a potential downside for it to be balanced compared to frame-specific mobility options. It's easy to overshoot your target, and oftentimes you'll have to turn around or reposition yourself once you do land. With WF's clunky turning, this could be a liability. If anything, frame-specific mobility skills should be altered in case-by-case ways to make them more attractive options.

 

The heart of the issue, though, is that

 

1. We don't have many parkour rooms, and newer tilesets are straying further and further away from the game's parkour roots

2. The parkour that this game does have sucks. The Mastery Rank 8 test is a testament to why people don't bother with parkour 90% of the time. Heck, sometimes your frame will hop over thin air as if it were a railing.

 

WF's parkour might be one of the worst I've used in a video game. It's not fluid. It's not responsive. There's not much you can do with it that you couldn't with a slide attack or a copter. But rather than eliminate mobility options like coptering, parkour itself needs a major rework. Jumping has a lot of startup lag, as does clinging to a wall. These aspects alone make parkour an unattractive mobility option.

 

Want to see a project that already has parkour miles ahead of Warframe's? Watch Overgrowth.

 

 

There's another video from the dev team that shows wallrunning, but I can't find it right now.

 

This footage is nearly two years old. And at the time this was made, it had a team of only three people. Yeah, we can't expect DE to make a core aspect of their gameplay this polished when they're working on countless other things like balancing weapons, making new money sinks, etc. Especially since Overgrowth isn't even a game, but more a proof of concept. But we can at least expect DE to come back to movement and parkour like they seem to be doing with other aspects of the game (whether or not they're doing a good job of that is up to debate). 

[Reaver_X]

u know their gonna do parkour 2.0 right?

 

 

as to the other stuff u said about the new arial melee attacks and what not OP, my answer is this.

 

boo freakin hoo -_-....nobody likes superjump anyways.

[VentiGlondi]

They trash any short range mobility power such as superjump, like if it wasn't underused already.

That ability should've been removed long ago. Tiles in Warframe are mostly horizontal and so is parkour.

 

 

In extreme cases, such as with most heavy melee weapons, the momentum you get from aerial attacks is so ludicrous that they rape even long range mobility powers like rip-line, wormhole and Tail wind.

Why would you waste energy when with a handful of fast-regen stamina points you get almost as good results?

This is simply not true.

 

 

The only things that have been done wrong about aerial attacks is that they are affected by weapons' base range, which makes short-range weapons even less desirable, and that coptering hasn't been removed.

 

[Reaver_X]

coptering is part of the game now, de said so themselves xD

[VentiGlondi]

coptering is part of the game now, de said so themselves xD

And it was a huge mistake

[dadaddadada]

Think of directional melee as air dash and double jump.

 

Those two concepts exists and I don't see why Warframe can't have it considering the "Space NINJA" concept, futuristic setting, battle suits that do amazing things, wall running, etc.

 

So directional melee makes sense.

 

This stuff even made sense in Megaman X games and the Zero ones.

 

You'll simply have to accept air dashing and triple jump...

 

it's not going anywhere and neither slash air sliding. Those do add a new dimension to this game and make things more interesting reaching upper platforms easier w/o finding the right wall or steps, etc. and makes things smoother.

 

I would have probably agreed with you, but only if the following conditions were met:

- if warframe wasn't a game featuring ninjas and an advanced in-place parkour mechanic (even if buggy and unfinished),

- if directional melee attack wasn't presented as an "attack" to begin with.

My point was to help parkour getting out of its tomb by bandaid-buffing it and by removing exploits that yield way more utility than parkour itself. Coptering and air attacks are supposed to be primarly... "attacks", but people do just like they did with coptering. They exploit for movement, damaging air, and making parkour futile.

 

Why doing parkour when you can just exploit an ability which is supposed to deal damage?

Why is parkour still there? Just ground it definitely at this point and just go à-la cod advanced warfare now that we are at it.

 

I would have probably agreed with you, but that would imply grounding parkour altogether as it is no more useful in any way.

We are in a limbo right now which has both and none of the properties.

[Reaver_X]

nope, coptering is completely fine and it def should stay.

[dadaddadada]

I think coptering has enough of a potential downside for it to be balanced compared to frame-specific mobility options. It's easy to overshoot your target, and oftentimes you'll have to turn around or reposition yourself once you do land. With WF's clunky turning, this could be a liability. If anything, frame-specific mobility skills should be altered in case-by-case ways to make them more attractive options.

 

Kinda agree, but what about air melee? Coptering, while being an exploit by itself, it is still ground-level and horizontal. I see air melee as an even more OP 3-dimensional extension of coptering. Also, damaging air. Poor air.

 

The point of my post wasn't really about polishing parkour by itself, a lot of people have already published extensive feedback on how to improve warframe parkour after all. Let's say, it was about opening doors for parkour to be useful AND making overall melee more viable than before.

 

 

nope, coptering is completely fine and it def should stay.

 

Poor air ;_; Air is good, why would you constantly go around slashing it >.<

Edited November 11, 2014 by dadaddadada

[VentiGlondi]

Gotta be completely honest here, I absolutely hate coptering for two reasons:

- it's not equal for all melee weapons,

- it's looks ridiculously stupid.

 

As you might imagine, I was really hyped to see some actual aerial attack that doesn't look like a goddamn ballet.

But then DE decided that weapons shouldn't have equal aerial attack momentums and that coptering is there to stay.

 

Friggin 'ell.

[Jinryusai]

I would have probably agreed with you, but only if the following conditions were met:

- if warframe wasn't a game featuring ninjas and an advanced in-place parkour mechanic (even if buggy and unfinished),

- if directional melee attack wasn't presented as an "attack" to begin with.

My point was to help parkour getting out of its tomb by bandaid-buffing it and by removing exploits that yield way more utility than parkour itself. Coptering and air attacks are supposed to be primarly... "attacks", but people do just like they did with coptering. They exploit for movement, damaging air, and making parkour futile.

 

Why doing parkour when you can just exploit an ability which is supposed to deal damage?

Why is parkour still there? Just ground it definitely at this point and just go à-la cod advanced warfare now that we are at it.

 

I would have probably agreed with you, but that would imply grounding parkour altogether as it is no more useful in any way.

We are in a limbo right now which has both and none of the properties.

Why not do both? Both these mechanism, even abilities can blend well together given the proper level design and mechanics. Why not have them compliment each other...

 

Don't forget it's really fun to do it all. Fun>Logic...

 

Reason by this parkour is non existent is not due to copter or D. melee, it's due to the lack of opportunities. There Is barely anything in each level that tells you to parkour, any signs of wall running and such or largely ignored due to how hard it is to accomplish it.

 

Face it, it's difficult and wonky which is why no one does it, if you try to do it, you;ll likely get left behind,

 

So to make people do it, one must improve it, not remove other features or else you;ll have people simply running up steps and "butt sliding" rather than copter, D melee and especially parkour.

 

So until they make it easy, there is no other answer.

 

So in other words, parkour is warframe is frustrating(not always), but can be. It is not that fun to do, and D. melee nd copter is more fun due to level structure and broken mechanics.

 

So your idea won't work. it simply won't work. If they don't D melee, they shall copter, if they don't copter then they butt slide, if they don't butt slide then they run.

 

And I rarely saw anyone use mobility powers a lot prior to D melee. And it is still more fun and reward using max duration on them than to D melee which on;y gets you so far and it's nice to have many options to get places as well.

 

Options is a good thing and you should and everyone should play the way they want, not how someone dictates it, not even you.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Jinryusai

[Jinryusai]

Gotta be completely honest here, I absolutely hate coptering for two reasons:

- it's not equal for all melee weapons,

- it's looks ridiculously stupid.

 

As you might imagine, I was really hyped to see some actual aerial attack that doesn't look like a goddamn ballet.

But then DE decided that weapons shouldn't have equal aerial attack momentums and that coptering is there to stay.

 

Friggin 'ell.

Gotta have that fun factor boost...

[dadaddadada]

This is simply not true.

 

 

The only things that have been done wrong about aerial attacks is that they are affected by weapons' base range, which makes short-range weapons even less desirable, and that coptering hasn't been removed.

 

Mind to tell the poor mortal that I am what I said that is wrong in that section you quoted?

[VentiGlondi]

Mind to tell the poor mortal that I am what I said that is wrong in that section you quoted?

Aerial attacks get nowhere close to being tail wind or wormhole unless your build actually gimps those abilities.

[dadaddadada]

Aerial attacks get nowhere close to being tail wind or wormhole unless your build actually gimps those abilities.

 

The great pro about aerial dashes is that it doesn't consume any energy to do xyz movements with little restrictions. Only stamina. The parabolic shape of rip-line is pretty much equivalent to an aerial attack, with the latter being superior as it isn't bounded to range and object-grappling mechanics. Wormhole has always had the cons that its range cannot be dynamically changed in-game, while aerial attacks can be cancelled of any momentum at any point by slam attacking and landing where you want.

For most (not all, but definitely a lot) of the situations you will ever encounter in the game, aerial attacks are enough. It can even nicely replace horizontal coptering for heavy weapons.

Tail wind is the only one that has the most potential. But hey, EVERY frame can aerial attack. Only zephyr can tail wind.

[dadaddadada]

Why not do both? Both these mechanism, even abilities can blend well together given the proper level design and mechanics. Why not have them compliment each other...

 

Don't forget it's really fun to do it all. Fun>Logic...

 

Reason by this parkour is non existent is not due to copter or D. melee, it's due to the lack of opportunities. There Is barely anything in each level that tells you to parkour, any signs of wall running and such or largely ignored due to how hard it is to accomplish it.

 

Face it, it's difficult and wonky which is why no one does it, if you try to do it, you;ll likely get left behind,

 

So to make people do it, one must improve it, not remove other features or else you;ll have people simply running up steps and "butt sliding" rather than copter, D melee and especially parkour.

 

So until they make it easy, there is no other answer.

 

So in other words, parkour is warframe is frustrating(not always), but can be. It is not that fun to do, and D. melee nd copter is more fun due to level structure and broken mechanics.

 

So your idea won't work. it simply won't work. If they don't D melee, they shall copter, if they don't copter then they butt slide, if they don't butt slide then they run.

 

And I rarely saw anyone use mobility powers a lot prior to D melee. And it is still more fun and reward using max duration on them than to D melee which on;y gets you so far and it's nice to have many options to get places as well.

 

Options is a good thing and you should and everyone should play the way they want, not how someone dictates it, not even you.

 

I *think* that there is a misunderstanding right there, implied in your sentences featuring "butt slide". I don't want to remove slide 'spin' attack. I want to remove coptering. Coptering is defined as the act of spin attacking in mid-air. The lack of friction with the ground is what makes coptering so OP. Standard spin attack is almost ok.

 

I don't think they can complement each other because that would require perfect level design. Will level-design in warframe ever be perfect? No. Don't get me wrong, its nice to have a list of options to choose from to reach a certain objective, but if one of those options is vastly superior that the others, we are into a problem. D melee is even more OP than coptering because it allows both horizontal and vertical movements with all weapons, while coptering can be achieved only with some weapons.

Instead of introducing aerial attacks, I would have implemented the tracking system in my post and improved parkour.

... and if I reeeeally was been forced to put aerial attacks in my game, I wouldn't call it "attack", I would have called it "air dash" and making sure none of the animations feature melee swings only put there to damage air. And It must have some kind of drawback, otherwise most mobility abilities lose potential.

 

Last thing, I think that even a small change like +30% speed while wallrunning will make people a lot more interested in attempting our broken parkour.

 

Our definitions of "fun" differ. I dislike the idea of damaging air to obtain a cheap speed boost. You may disagree.

Also, manual bladestorm, yo.

Edited November 12, 2014 by dadaddadada

[fatpig84]

Coptering and air directional melee are here to stay.

Hate it ?

 

Equip fist melee.

[dadaddadada]

Coptering and air directional melee are here to stay.

Hate it ?

 

Equip fist melee.

 

Thank you for the bump, appreciated it.

[Jinryusai]

I *think* that there is a misunderstanding right there, implied in your sentences featuring "butt slide". I don't want to remove slide 'spin' attack. I want to remove coptering. Coptering is defined as the act of spin attacking in mid-air. The lack of friction with the ground is what makes coptering so OP. Standard spin attack is almost ok.

 

I don't think they can complement each other because that would require perfect level design. Will level-design in warframe ever be perfect? No. Don't get me wrong, its nice to have a list of options to choose from to reach a certain objective, but if one of those options is vastly superior that the others, we are into a problem. D melee is even more OP than coptering because it allows both horizontal and vertical movements with all weapons, while coptering can be achieved only with some weapons.

Instead of introducing aerial attacks, I would have implemented the tracking system in my post and improved parkour.

... and if I reeeeally was been forced to put aerial attacks in my game, I wouldn't call it "attack", I would have called it "air dash" and making sure none of the animations feature melee swings only put there to damage air. And It must have some kind of drawback, otherwise most mobility abilities lose potential.

 

Last thing, I think that even a small change like +30% speed while wallrunning will make people a lot more interested in attempting our broken parkour.

 

Our definitions of "fun" differ. I dislike the idea of damaging air to obtain a cheap speed boost. You may disagree.

Also, manual bladestorm, yo.

It's only superior due to level design and wonky mechanics and very little reward. Before they remove anything, they must fix what is broken then look at things as whole then decide what to do. Simply removing air dash won't accomplish anything.

 

if that is your only fix to parkour other than 30%+ wallrun speed then parkour shall forever be doomed with or w/o air dash.

 

And "butt slide" refers to the slang people use to describe their hatred for constant sliding for mobility with or w/o swinging..

 

So in the end, rather than remove a feature, make the dated features feel fresh and new as well as rewarding. It's been way too long since the introduction of parkour and many of those mobility powers could use some fine tuning especially for more control.

 

I say improve those things and make them a much better choice over air dashing(D. Melee) and then you may actually see people actually using them.

 

So try it, come up with reworks or buffs to mobility powers(make ;'em more fun) and how to make parkour a blast rather than a bloody chore...

 

Although that homing attack is a good idea, zip right to the enemy and trap much like the arching, but air dash/triple/double jump should stay.

 

Your issue isn't with D. Melee itself, but how the other options have become dated ad ignored plus never improved and you are not helping with this suggestion.

 

And yes, you may not like D. Melee, but at least you have other options. i suggest you find ways to improve those options you like, then to ruin other peoples fun. Don't be that stick in the mud much like those anti copter hooligans that only think of themselves.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Jinryusai

[VentiGlondi]

Coptering and air directional melee are here to stay.

Hate it ?

 

Equip fist melee.

Ah, ignoring the issue. The best way of solving problems since 1347.

 

 

The great pro about aerial dashes is that it doesn't consume any energy to do xyz movements with little restrictions. Only stamina. The parabolic shape of rip-line is pretty much equivalent to an aerial attack, with the latter being superior as it isn't bounded to range and object-grappling mechanics. Wormhole has always had the cons that its range cannot be dynamically changed in-game, while aerial attacks can be cancelled of any momentum at any point by slam attacking and landing where you want.

For most (not all, but definitely a lot) of the situations you will ever encounter in the game, aerial attacks are enough. It can even nicely replace horizontal coptering for heavy weapons.

Tail wind is the only one that has the most potential. But hey, EVERY frame can aerial attack. Only zephyr can tail wind.

I have no clue where you got the parabolic ripline from.

Ripline pulls you in a straight line before flinging you across the room the way a walljump would. It also tends to give you a lot of upward momentum for some reason. I always thought Wormhole was supposed to be used to travel large distances quickly and I don't quite see why would you need dynamic range for that.

Tail Wind is something I'm really pissed at. Why can't I turn while flying? Grr

Super Jump isn't even worth mentioning. It needed a complete replacement, not some new effects slapped onto it.

 

To sum up my thought on this whole thing: Improve parkour? Yes. Remove aerial dash? No. Just make it equal on all weapons and make the momentum just enough to reach enemies and not enough to be worth for intergalactic journeys. Coptering? Shouldn't be a thing to begin with.

Edited November 12, 2014 by VentiGlondi

[S7ORM]

Just going to throw this out there, but combining some wall running (both horizontal and vertical) with the aerial melee attack makes for excellent traversal of levels -- moreso than either of them individually.

While yes, I would like to see an improvement on the parkour skills of our Warframes, and I do believe it will come, the more important thing is to design tiles (or gamemodes) that encourage it.