Why Do Abilities Have No Cooldown?

[-InV-igo95862]

I recently crafted a new hero Valkyr with the awesome ultimate Hysteria and the problem of abilities not having cooldowns have risen before me. All there are four abilities per hero but ever seen I got Hysteria I almost stopped using any other abilities beside it. Why? Because I want to use as much mana on it as possible. (plus they have really long cast time and I don't want to lose Hysteria time on casting) As soon as it ends I want to use it again for invulnerability. If I use any other ability I might ran out of mana for one more Hysteria if I get unlucky on energy orbs drops.  If I couldn't spam Hysteria immediately as it ends I would have used other abilities to utilize all mana pool more effectively.

 

Rhino was another hero I used only two abilities: Iron Skin (Roar on high levels) and Stomp. Same applies to Vauban: any reason to cast Tesla Grenades then you can use mana for another Vortex or Bastille ?

 

Excalibur is the only hero I somewhat used all abilities but mostly because all of them are somewhat lackluster. Rhino Stomp stuns longer then Radial Blind and has longer range, Slash Dash can be replaced with sliding melee attack (helicopter), Super Jump can be replaced with melee aerial attack...  Nothing as epic as Hysteria or Vortex.

 

Another problem of cooldownless abilities is it spam with sizable mana regeneration. Like Trinity's Energy Vampire or couple of mana pads. One of the reasons of Viver farming is abilities being spammable.

 

Of cause you can nerf abilities like Hysteria but it will only make it less satisfying to use and hero less unique.

[vaugahn]

A long time ago, way back in the days of old, all abilities had cooldowns.

 

What happened was this: everyone used their abilities, then went and camped behind a box until the timers ran down. It sucked. They were removed for a reason. 

 

Also, if all you're doing is using Hysteria you're missing out on how useful Warcry and Ripline are. 

[Rakshal]

I believe there was cool downs before but it really didn't work out. People would use a nuke ability to murder everything in a room, wait for the cool down to end, then walk into the next room to nuke everything again. It made the game play painfully slow. Hysteria is just overpowered and needs another rework (Hysteria 3.0?).

[Cannamancer]

Cooldowns as stated before were removed for good reason, this isn't EQ or WoW powers don't need cooldowns.

[-InV-igo95862]

What happened was this: everyone used their abilities, then went and camped behind a box until the timers ran down. It sucked. They were removed for a reason. 

 

And Energy Siphon does not do same?

[Rakshal]

And Energy Siphon does not do same?

No, it doesn't.

[vaugahn]

And Energy Siphon does not do same?

 

Not nearly to the same degree as cooldowns. 

[Nah_NotReally]

This is a problem of experience. Once you can master using all your abilities and your weapons, you become an awesome player and look like a boss in the missions. I use all of my abilities as loki instead of just invis or radial disarm and it all mixes well with my dual zoren, castanas, and paris prime. Shade helps a brotha out too occasionally.

[-InV-igo95862]

No, it doesn't.

 

Run out of room and wait until your mana regens. Oh wait there is a objective you need to protect. Oh wait cooldowns do same.

 

 

Cooldowns are not perfect but they are better then not having them at all.

[Brynslustafir]

Because this isn't a MOBA. This is a fast paced game where you sometimes NEED to be able to use an ability more than once in rapid succession. Many parts of the game would need to be redesigned to make cooldowns feasible. 

Edited November 12, 2014 by Plasmaface

[Acos]

Energy Siphon is more of a constant recovery to increase the consistency of your casts during battle. Team Energy Restore is the 'hide behind a box, oh crap I hope nobody sees me' thing you're thinking of. Even then Team Energy Restore gives 25 energy on the first tick, and for a "mage" build that's usually enough to fire off an ultimate and get right back into business. 

Fun Side Note: I've considered dropping Energy Siphon on my builds now that I can just hotkey Team Energy Restore. The biggest problem before was that it was awkward to get to during combat; now that I can just hit a button and plop it down immediately that's significantly less of an issue. 

 

More Fun Side Note: Rather than cooldowns, I think enemies need to build some kind of CC immunity to powers inflicted on them so you cannot simply perma-lock down a group of enemies indefinitely as you perfectly manage your energy reserves. When I think about what makes defense missions completely trivial, it's usually that I can stop everything on the map from fighting back entirely. Given that we can now use *all* of our abilities at any given time this really seems like the way to go to me. 

Edited November 12, 2014 by Acos

[Mcl_Blue]

Run out of room and wait until your mana regens. Oh wait there is a objective you need to protect. Oh wait cooldowns do same.

 

 

Cooldowns are not perfect but they are better then not having them at all.

No, it's not the same, it's completely different, I can't even begin to understand how it ever could possibly be the same.

 

Also, how in the hell is having any cooldowns a good thing? How is not having any cooldowns and being able to use your abilities ALL THE TIME not better than having to wait to be awesome??

[Marthrym]

Run out of room and wait until your mana regens. Oh wait there is a objective you need to protect. Oh wait cooldowns do same.

 

 

Cooldowns are not perfect but they are better then not having them at all.

Actually CDs sucked. HARD. Energy Siphon is very different from having cooldowns. And cooldowns are certainly NOT "better than nothing". You are the one with the problem here. You spam Hysteria, that's the issue. YOU are the issue man.^^'

Also Hysteria might seem "overpowered" to you because you're most probably not in the "big boys" division yet. Go do some endless T4, you'll quickly find out that Hysteria is far from "OP" when it takes 15 swipes to kill anything. Not to mention how your mobility and melee range are hampered by Hysteria.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Marthrym

[Vargras]

All I read was the OP only using Hysteria on Valkyr, Iron Skin and Stomp on Rhino, and Bastille and Vortex on Vauban, and then I went, "Oh, you're one of those players".

[DSpite]

Run out of room and wait until your mana regens. Oh wait there is a objective you need to protect. Oh wait cooldowns do same.

 

 

Cooldowns are not perfect but they are better then not having them at all.

 

Drop Energy Restore. Nuke Room. Repeat.

 

At the end of the day, this is game. People want to do what they find fun, trying to stop them having "their" version of "fun" turns into events like Sachura, or Viver.

 

The main issue is managing to find a version of "fun" that fits a hundred thousand players, which is the tricky bit.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Ability cooldowns do one of two things, generally.

 

1) In PvP matches, they help balance out the spamming of abilities, leaving ultimates as a skill based bullet to the core of the enemy team, or (in cheaper games) an unfriendly nuke to wipe out an entire area and anything in it.

 

2) In PvE games, they force the conservation of abilities because cooldowns can be deadly.

 

But can't energy costs do the same thing? Energy costs can bring about the same effect, but limiting your ability castable pool. Energy costs can be worked to be dynamic, such as the gaining of orbs to place this into action=more action, or more spam of ability use = more spam of ability use.

 

Because Warframe is a fast-paced game, a timer would force over-conservation of said ability, over-use of low timed abilities, or, when relying on abilities, the "hide away" mentality which seemed to hit this game the worst when these were in effect.

Personally, I think active energy pools reinforce a fast-paced game mentality, especially when they are worked to be dynamic, with lower costs, or replenishable gains.

[Mesyra]

All I read was the OP only using Hysteria on Valkyr, Iron Skin and Stomp on Rhino, and Bastille and Vortex on Vauban, and then I went, "Oh, you're one of those players".

pretty much what I thought...

 

dont be so narrow minded (see what I did there) when using Ults. they are powerful but if they are all you are using, you are missing out on the other 3/5ths of the frame (1/5th for each ability and 1/5th for the frame its self)

 

I chain so many abilities together when playing valkyr it is insane, I am constantly swapping to my Jet Kitty and popping warcry then using ripline to get that annoying lancer thats running away or the Shield drone that is too high for my normal swings to hit ( I havent learned how to use the new directional melee attacks very well, I need practice even at MR 15.) and then paralysis to get Parries on Heavy Units and Shield Lancers. 

 

my mirage I constantly cast all my abilities to keep myself alive. SH and Eclipse+HoM works pretty well in quick succession to keep laser doors down and your DPS as high as possible.

 

I might as well tap-dance on my keyboard while playing trinity. constantly using WoL on Heavies and EV on the grunts, recasting link and blessing to keep my 99% damage reduction up. EDIT: I had over 10k key-presses in a three hour session of warframe while playing trinity in T4s. spoiler contains the pre-blessing-fix where you had to build minimum duration for the ability to be useful.

http://youtu.be/KieIvAaUiUs

 

Limbo isnt too bad as all my abilities last around 40 seconds but I always have Rift Surge active and am usually moving in the rift from point A to Point B, dragging in lots of goons into the Rift with me to kill.

 

use more than one ability on your frames and try and keep using your powers as often as possible and then say we need cool downs, I think your opinion will be very different.

 

also, like IIIDevoidIII said, Energy is here for a reason. cool downs slow the pace of games by a lot, having energy available instead makes it to where you can keep killing things so you can use your next ability.

Edited November 12, 2014 by VYR3

[TinFoilMkIV]

The problem I see with the current lack of cooldowns is that our efficiency and energy levels can reach some pretty absurd levels on even non-caster frames allowing for some pretty silly chains of nigh invulnerability, permanent CCs, and constant map clears. Standard cooldowns probably aren't the right answer but I do also feel like we could possibly do with a change.

[fatpig84]

If you want cool downs you have to remove Energy as a mechanic.

Because in War frame it is too easy to actually lose all your energy especially when fighting infested.

And as explained people will just camp it out until the big ultimate is ready.

 

Also Energy siphon as a whole is almost negligible solo.

A single siphon only gains energy at 0.6 a second.

 

I am not going to stand for 41 seconds to gain 25 energy. I use energy restores instead.

In fact more and more people are removing energy siphon for "serious" games.

 

I only use it "normal games" where newbies can use the extra crutch like Rejuvenation (I always prefer physique). 

[Pandoran_Stallion]

The usage of the words 'hero' and 'mana' pop out to me here. I'm going to go out on a (probably incorrect) limb and say you've played a few MOBAs.

The reason abities don't have a cool down is because this game is too fast paced. While in a MOBA, these are implemented for balance, in Warframe the exact opposite happens- they leage room for spam. This is because the frame should not just be a speed, health, and shield stat. The Warframe is as much a part of the arsenal as the gun and blade.

When you add a cooldown you're artificially slowing down the game. This is why energy exists- it caps your usage of a given ability. You can press 4 all you like at any time, but when you need it a few seconds later and you're out of energy, it's an 'oh snap' moment. Yes, there are spam builds, but these have certain flaws that I'm not going to point out in this thread.

There is occasionally an ability so powerful it IS put on a cool down timer- most ultimates follow this. You cannot have more than one ultimate active at any given time, however, many ultimates stop being useful a few seconds after the initial cast. This balances the damage Rhino deals with his stomp (damage) and his stasis (utility). This prevents him from murdering everything in a radius ad putting anything within his range in stasis whenever he wants.

Vauban doesn't follow this because, simply put, he's Vauban. He has a high skill ceiling and all of his abilities can be placed wherever you like.

As for synergy- try Paralysis while on Hysteria. Deals radial damage, stuns and slows enemies. Then cast Warcry for attack speed and an armor boost, and move towards your enemies with Ripline. You have to build your Warframe to balance efficiency and ability synergies to unlock its full potential. While Valkyr looks like she's a one-trick pony, she's far from it. Just like Frost can take out a threatening target via his 1, slow a hallway of enemies with 2, or just freeze enemies with 4, he is more than just snow globe. Vauban's Teslas can be placed in the middle of a Bastille or Vortex to increase damage and generally cause mayhem. Bounce can throw enemies into a vortex you place on the ceiling, to keep unimportant enemies out of the Bastille you laced with Teslas below.

Every frame has these synergies but when one ability seems to do the trick, of course people will gravitate to it. But when you use these abilities skillfully and use them as powerful weapons rather than an augment to your gun, you become more effective as a solo player and as a teammate.

[-InV-igo95862]

Actually CDs sucked. HARD. Energy Siphon is very different from having cooldowns. And cooldowns are certainly NOT "better than nothing". You are the one with the problem here. You spam Hysteria, that's the issue. YOU are the issue man.^^'

Also Hysteria might seem "overpowered" to you because you're most probably not in the "big boys" division yet. Go do some endless T4, you'll quickly find out that Hysteria is far from "OP" when it takes 15 swipes to kill anything. Not to mention how your mobility and melee range are hampered by Hysteria.

 

Abilities are powerful and need to be limited from using constantly to prevent trivializing game by spamming mass disables or other abilities. Mana is one way to limit it but currently there are ways to have almost infinite mana (Energy Vampite) leading to "Viver" syndrome. Having cooldowns is another restrain and another handle of balance. The more handles balance team has more precisely can the game be tuned to better balance.

[fatpig84]

Abilities are powerful and need to be limited from using constantly to prevent trivializing game by spamming mass disables or other abilities. Mana is one way to limit it but currently there are ways to have almost infinite mana (Energy Vampite) leading to "Viver" syndrome. Having cooldowns is another restrain and another handle of balance. The more handles balance team has more precisely can the game be tuned to better balance.

 

I be blunt then. I presume you know that outside of Viver, ultimate damage spam is good as worthless in games that actually matter ? 

Like T4 games where you are forced to sit out waves after waves of rounds or 40 minutes of survival (40 mins is minimum for me) to at least to get a shot of the prime part you desire ?

 

Partly because T4 keys are so rare and hard to obtain (RnG lolol) people are forced to sit out longer than the "balance zone". Joe schmoe gets his T4 survival / defense after a crap load of Cerberus  / Viver. Do you think he will stop at 20 minutes or 20 waves ? He will try 40 at least, so he get 2 chances to get that prime part.

 

With most hard CC abilities having LOS (pull and RB for example) or duration based (Chaos = cool down is your duration, stomp 8 seconds etc).

Adding more cool downs totally wrecks the frame that relies on that CC for protection.

 

Even that fat arse Rhino will need his stomp every 8 seconds, once a gentle sneeze breaks his iron skin and enemies take a few dozen or so bullets to put down (that's why I use Dread yeaah). Now imagine he cast stomp, it has a CD of 30 seconds. And it kicks in after the stasis is gone, that is 38 seconds of absolutely nothing in a high danger environment.

 

 

These problems are so intertwined right now that you can't fix something without breaking something. With more cool downs, T4s become harder to obtain on average. Since the best Tower 4 key games are like Cerberus. This limits the amount of people that can actually do those high end interception games.

 

Then even when you got the key, it becomes much harder to get 2 to 3 chances of a high end prime part due to cool downs and the game play skill of the average casual. This has a effect on the availability of prime parts which sky rockets the prices of each prime part, hence wrecking the economy. 

 

So nope at the moment.

Edited November 12, 2014 by fatpig84

[-InV-igo95862]

As for synergy- try Paralysis while on Hysteria. Deals radial damage, stuns and slows enemies. Then cast Warcry for attack speed and an armor boost, and move towards your enemies with Ripline. You have to build your Warframe to balance efficiency and ability synergies to unlock its full potential. While Valkyr looks like she's a one-trick pony, she's far from it. Just like Frost can take out a threatening target via his 1, slow a hallway of enemies with 2, or just freeze enemies with 4, he is more than just snow globe. Vauban's Teslas can be placed in the middle of a Bastille or Vortex to increase damage and generally cause mayhem. Bounce can throw enemies into a vortex you place on the ceiling, to keep unimportant enemies out of the Bastille you laced with Teslas below.

Every frame has these synergies but when one ability seems to do the trick, of course people will gravitate to it. But when you use these abilities skillfully and use them as powerful weapons rather than an augment to your gun, you become more effective as a solo player and as a teammate.

 

The problem is that synergies are completely not required to play hero for full potential. For example, Rip Line. Sounds like a nice synergy to have extra mobility while you are melee but is it actually needed then you can slide and jump-slide-melee for higher mobility and saving mana for extra Hysteria? Paralysis? Do you need stun then enemies are running at you? (maybe capture targets)

 

Same applies to Vauban. Do you need to create a vortex on the ceiling? (maybe under the bridge?) Do you need Tesla Grenades then you can cast extra Vortex?

 

Same applies to Frost. If you only use Snowball you will still be a good Frost as if you used other abilities.

 

Necros seems all about Desecrate.

 

Cooldowns are not salvation but only a small piece in a solution. Cooldowns does not need to be only time based. They could be for example kill based.

[ShardsSuperior]

The abilities are designed without cooldowns in mind. What does that mean?

It means the staff have balanced them to be able to be used over and over again.

 

Tacking cooldowns on will significantly change the pace of the game, and most definitely not for the better.

 

The reason devs put cooldowns in the game (any game) is to slow the pace. Warframe is a fast-paced game, escapism at its finest. Cooldowns simply don't belong in Warframe.

Also, enemies don't get salty when you cast skills over and over. It's not PVP.

(Dark Sectors don't count. They barely count as Warframe gameplay, anyways.)

 

Cooldowns are not salvation but only a small piece in a solution. Cooldowns does not need to be only time based. They could be for example kill based.

Currently, the cooldown is basically kill based. You kill a number of enemies, an enemy drops an energy orb, more casting. Like most games, there are ways to shorten that cooldown, with efficiency modding, and auras like the aforementioned Energy Siphon.

[-InV-igo95862]

 

Currently, the cooldown is basically kill based. You kill a number of enemies, an enemy drops an energy orb, more casting.

 

And its also completely random. To eliminate risk you want to use mana only on best abilities.

 

I don't want to say that all abilities should have cooldown but that cooldown mechanic is actually beneficial to game in some cases. Rhino Stomp is actually the ability with cooldown. Imaging if it did not have it and you could perma stun enemies.