Viver: How Syndicate Reputation Nerfed Warframes And Viver Had Almost Nothing To Do With It

[RealmDestroyer]

I said nothing of the sort. I said you have two choices at this point, adjust or decide adjusting isn't what you wanna do and leave. Cause in the end, it's DE's game and they get to choose how it works. Don't you put words in my mouth, young man!

But they are a rare kind of company that has a more intimate relationship with their playerbase. They can voice themselves to be heard and they want the game to be amazing.

The community is passionate, and we don't want the game to hang on mechanics that completely blow the experience out of the water for everyone.

 

Again, you're literally saying take it or leave it.

[Cradicias]

But they are a rare kind of company that has a more intimate relationship with their playerbase. They can voice themselves to be heard and they want the game to be amazing.

The community is passionate, and we don't want the game to hang on mechanics that completely blow the experience out of the water for everyone.

 

Again, you're literally saying take it or leave it.

 

Because in the end, that's what you HAVE to do. Look at how much stuff has changed DESPITE the community screaming for it not to? Mod system change, damage system change, warframe nerfs, weapon nerfs, etc. Yeah, they listen to us somewhat, but in the end, their vision for the game is the big decider. If they keep seeing lack of LoS making the game a spam fest of hitting 4, they will add LoS to ensure we have to actually be ninjas to win.

 

Edit: In a way, the player base brought it upon themselves. They gave us tools they expected us to use in a certain way, and when we didn't, we broke their heart and forced them to make it so you don't do that anymore.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Cradicias

[Sylviee]

I find it unnecessary to punish other people for what they did not do wrong, especially when it comes to nerfing warframes. Nerfing warframes does not affect only those in viver, but also EVERYONE in the game. Why nerf the warframes? Why not fix viver? Or increase syndicate rep gain around that. Now excal will get less popular as there are more frames that are way better.

[Draciusen]

What &!$$es me off is that in a nutshell, Syndicates caused the nerfs of 3 frames.

 

They could've nerfed the hell out of that map and I wouldn't bat an eye. They could've reputation gains even lower for all I care and I still wouldn't be too bothered with it, never cared for Syndicates much anyway and haven't bothered with farming reputation at all. But when a broken system significantly affects an actual integral part of the game (Warframe balancing); that's where I start to have a problem.

 

You cannot deny that these changes were planned in advance and going to ship out anyway; and the VIver farming is coincidence. Excalibur's Radial Javelin changes basically revert his earlier changes to it (It had trouble hitting enemies behind cover); Mag was a relatively rare and niche frame prior to this without any complaints, and Trinity was perfectly fine after the removal of cheesy Link-Blessing strategies.

 

Let's not focus on reworking Nekros, who remains a frame with only one effective ability that isn't even fun to use. Let's not focus on Saryn's.... everything, or Limbo's Banish trolling. No, let's nerf these 3 decent frames that are the best at making the best out of a broken system.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Draciusen

[Brynslustafir]

I haven't been this upset with DE since the first implementation of the Detron. 

[Mesyra]

 

these changes were uncalled for. fix the spawning rate, dont nerf the abilities.

 

Mag and Excal do not have the survivability to stand out of cover to use their abilities.

 

I'm really ticked off about a triple freaking whammy on three frames. 

 

EDIT: I am very happy about the new Archwing weapons that were added, I cant wait to get my hands on that railgun.

Edited November 13, 2014 by VYR3

[Lukedu_]

I haven't been this upset with DE since the first implementation of the Detron. 

Which since it's been introduced I've put another 400 hours in Warframe and never used up my deathmark :3

[Cradicias]

What &!$$es me off is that in a nutshell, Syndicates caused the nerfs of 3 frames.

 

They could've nerfed the hell out of that map and I wouldn't bat an eye. They could've reputation gains even lower for all I care and I still wouldn't be too bothered with it, never cared for Syndicates much anyway and haven't bothered with farming reputation at all. But when a broken system significantly affects an actual integral part of the game (Warframe balancing); that's where I start to have a problem.

 

You cannot deny that these changes were planned in advance and going to ship out anyway; and the VIver farming is coincidence. Excalibur's Radial Javelin changes basically revert his earlier changes to it (It had trouble hitting enemies behind cover); Mag was a relatively rare and niche frame prior to this without any complaints, and Trinity was perfectly fine after the removal of cheesy Link-Blessing strategies.

 

Your impression of Radial Javelin is incorrect. The changes made it so that enemies targeted by it had the javelins spawn at their location, making it so they couldn't dodge the ability which REALLY made it crap. This change is still in effect and the changes now don't revert that one iota. They do make it so that a enemies behind cover or a wall don't get affected. I don't think that's an unfair change, really a matter of opinion at that point. If they did that to all ultimates, I'd be just fine. 

[ArchBlood]

Three frames hit hard with the nerf hammer, because a COORDINATED team with specific builds using ENDGAME 8-10 rank corrupted mods could kill enemies too well.

 

Whoa! Clam down there. We can't be having team-work actually be useful. That would be dumb. You use the mods/builds how they are intended? How dare you! /s

[Mesyra]

this was posted in another thread, you should add it to the OP.

 

http://strawpoll.me/2981456

[komasieg]

I want DE to clarify this as the circumstances that supposed to weaken these frames.

That was above that's why I am thinking, but by measures in the form that affects all of the players are so much.

 

Whether the DE side is regarded as what is the problem, whether it by are shaped by what kind of history is the conclusion that it was defeated this time had been turned on.

Rather than by all means than that arrange narrowing the width of that the frame can be in weak, I just want to re-think the Invision system.

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

Going to put this out there, the time it would take to test and properly implement the LoS feature to all of these abilities would lead me to believe these changes were incoming before talk of the Viver shenanigans started.

Thus, I don't see them as connected, at this time, and if they aren't connected, it was probably a bad idea to release it in such a manner.

 

Cleaned the thread up a bit.

[Cradicias]

How is that funny? If someone were to play 6 hours per day on ps4 he would have over 2000hours as well.

 

Maybe you're misunderstanding me. It's not a "you're an idiot" funny. It's "It's ironic you said that, as PS4 has had it less time than PC." Wasn't meant as an insult, just thought it was funny. Guess it's just a point of view humor.

 

Edit: Not sure if you took it as an insult, but, from your seemingly defensive post, figured I'd clear that up. Not trying to step on toes here, this is, after all, just a discussion.

 

Edit 2: Damn you, internet, develop a way to convey inflection and tone! You cause misunderstandings!

Edited November 13, 2014 by Cradicias

[blaes]

Your impression of Radial Javelin is incorrect. The changes made it so that enemies targeted by it had the javelins spawn at their location, making it so they couldn't dodge the ability which REALLY made it crap. This change is still in effect and the changes now don't revert that one iota. They do make it so that a enemies behind cover or a wall don't get affected. I don't think that's an unfair change, really a matter of opinion at that point. If they did that to all ultimates, I'd be just fine. 

 

so, this is how things stand :

before : enemies behind cover were targeted, but the cover intercepted the javelin since it spawned near excal. enemies behind cover were not hit.

before 15.2 : javelins spawn near the targeted enemies to bypass cover. enemies behind cover are targeted and hit.

after 15.2 : javelins still spawn near enemies, enemies out of LoS are not targeted. most enemies behind cover are not targeted, thus not hit.

 

result : update 15.2 nullified the changes made to avoid enemies dodging radial javelin by being covered.

radial javelin now performs in a similar fashion as it did before, when it was considered junk.

great job.

 

 

also, on another note :

if you play the game "the way it's meant to" and use the daily syndicate missions to gain reputation, assuming you gain on average 800 reputation to the main mission syndicate per mission, and 400 to their ally, that's 1.2k reputation per mission.

since you need approximately 650k reputation to fully unlock a syndicate and buy one copy of each sigil/item they sell, and again as much for their allied syndicate (or 1300kreputation total), you'll have to go through over a thousand syndicate missions to effectively complete your two syndicates.

daily missions being limited to 3 per syndicate (totalling 6 missions for syndicate + ally each day), fully unlocking a syndicate and its ally will require approximately 6 months of dedicated playing.

this is the heart of the problem.

if you could max your chosen syndicates in a reasonable time frame by normal means, abuse would have been minimal/non-existent.

 

and please note that i haven't even brought up the case of people who want to unlock rewards from syndicates who are opposed/enemies. good luck with your over a year farm of daily missions.

Edited November 13, 2014 by blaes

[(PSN)timbob90210]

No, it just makes ti funny you said anything about my time played, when PS4 has only had the game a few months, when PC has had it for a LOT longer.

Just making this on topic so it doesn't get deleted again. I feel the nerfs should not have been to the frames but the node itself. If they were going to do this anyway, they should have did all the frames at the same time. There is only an 8 month difference between the pc and ps4 release of Warframe, and the year anniversary is in a couple days. A ps4 player's opinion is just as valid at this point.

[Cradicias]

Just making this on topic so it doesn't get deleted again. I feel the nerfs should not have been to the frames but the node itself. If they were going to do this anyway, they should have did all the frames at the same time. There is only an 8 month difference between the pc and ps4 release of Warframe, and the year anniversary is in a couple days. A ps4 player's opinion is just as valid at this point.

 

Never said their opinion didn't matter. But, thank you for trying to be on point. As for how many frames got nerfed, they are, again, making a slow circle of all warframes, adjusting them accordingly. These 3 got targeted QUICK because of how they were being used so frequently to exploit. If people start using others to try the same thing, they will guaranteed get smacked.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Cradicias

[Cradicias]

so, this is how things stand :

before : enemies behind cover were targeted, but the cover intercepted the javelin since it spawned near excal. enemies behind cover were not hit.

before 15.2 : javelins spawn near the targeted enemies to bypass cover. enemies behind cover are targeted and hit.

after 15.2 : javelins still spawn near enemies, enemies out of LoS are not targeted. most enemies behind cover are not targeted, thus not hit.

 

result : update 15.2 nullified the changes made to avoid enemies dodging radial javelin by being covered.

radial javelin now performs in a similar fashion as it did before, when it was considered junk.

great job.

 

 

also, on another note :

if you play the game "the way it's meant to" and use the daily syndicate missions to gain reputation, assuming you gain on average 800 reputation to the main mission syndicate per mission, and 400 to their ally, that's 1.2k reputation per mission.

since you need approximately 650k reputation to fully unlock a syndicate and buy one copy of each sigil/item they sell, and again as much for their allied syndicate (or 1300kreputation total), you'll have to go through over a thousand syndicate missions to effectively complete your two syndicates.

daily missions being limited to 3 per syndicate (totalling 6 missions for syndicate + ally each day), fully unlocking a syndicate and its ally will require approximately 6 months of dedicated playing.

this is the heart of the problem.

if you could max your chosen syndicates in a reasonable time frame by normal means, abuse would have been minimal/non-existent.

 

and please note that i haven't even brought up the case of people who want to unlock rewards from syndicates who are opposed/enemies. good luck with your over a year farm of daily missions.

 

Again, I think people missed what the fix for Radial Javelin a little while back was. It made it so enemies couldn't DODGE the javelins, they were literally moving out of the way of the javelins. It was less about the cover and more about the fact the javelins just couldn't catch em at times.

 

Edit: As for your second point about the time it takes to get reputation, I completely agree. I've never said the reputation system isn't messed up. In fact, I made a thread about it because of how gross the time investment is. However, people exploiting the game to get past that isn't the answer. DE needs to make adjustments to the reputation system. That's a valid complaint. The rest of the stuff in this thread? Not really.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Cradicias

[Segar123]

Going to put this out there, the time it would take to test and properly implement the LoS feature to all of these abilities would lead me to believe these changes were incoming before talk of the Viver shenanigans started.

Thus, I don't see them as connected, at this time, and if they aren't connected, it was probably a bad idea to release it in such a manner.

 

Cleaned the thread up a bit.

 

 

Forgive me for putting in your quote. But I got some concerns that need to be said here.

 

IF Abilities are thought of going through LOS check. When will the AI be improved to where where every humanoid faction will not

simply start runing towards "Cover" and/or the alarms.

But instead just group up together or use some tatics to out flank or out number the tenno player base?

 

I've seen constant time of where even in defenses the AI would rather just play hide in seek than to go after the player

or the target he/she is defending.

 

From the way its seen on this end, The AI is only given commands to do alarms, RUN away, or run for cover.

 

 

Something I would like to add on as well.  About the Reputation grind, Its more of a question so I'm sorry if it seems to offend anyone

back there in DE.  But Has the thought as to WHY the player base is looking for a faster way to get Reputation points to complete

their goals?

 

The same goes for Experince gains and Weapons that some players would deem as "not worthy of the time to level, add

catalyst/reactor, Forma". 

 

Would it not be better if the Devolopment team start looking into as to why XX frame or XX weapon is better prefered, than

just mixing changes that suddenly get either reverted back or changed to what some would consider "a bad idea that

should have not been pushed to production."?

 

Thank you for your time in reading this post.

[LukeAura]

Again, I think people missed what the fix for Radial Javelin a little while back was. It made it so enemies couldn't DODGE the javelins, they were literally moving out of the way of the javelins. It was less about the cover and more about the fact the javelins just couldn't catch em at times.

No, it was always about obstructions and 'LoS' type issues. Those Javelins were faster than any bolt or arrow. They had no problem hitting targets, they had a problem being blocked. 

 

[Adumu]

Your impression of Radial Javelin is incorrect. The changes made it so that enemies targeted by it had the javelins spawn at their location, making it so they couldn't dodge the ability which REALLY made it crap. This change is still in effect and the changes now don't revert that one iota. They do make it so that a enemies behind cover or a wall don't get affected. I don't think that's an unfair change, really a matter of opinion at that point. If they did that to all ultimates, I'd be just fine. 

 

... So I've read every post you've made in this thread while skimming other people's, and I just can't help but shake my head at you.

 

I'm not surprised people like you exist; been aware of it for a while. They still annoy me, though.

 

Anywhoozles. I never bothered to farm Viver, I don't own Mag or Trinity, and I played Excal sporadically but I enjoy him. Once I've determined for myself how much these changes have hurt him I'll probably come back with a more informed post, but for now I'll just say that I'd not once used Radial Javelin in any serious fashion and doubt I'll be able to start doing so now.

 

As a matter of fact, I've not played Excalibro since he stopped being able to blind people through walls and whatnot, been too busy leveling Loki Prime and Limbo. I s'pose I'll see if this change has actually put him in a spot where I just can't make any good use of him, and if it has I'll be pissed.

 

From what I'm getting here, farming Viver was basically just playing the game with a specific group of frames who, when put together, maximized the amount of enemies that could be killed, allowing for more rep-gain via affinity or whatever. Maybe something about letting the enemies cap two points while only holding two points yourself to farm more of them at the relatively low level as well.

 

And, man, I gotta say; which one of you idiots called that an exploit? Seriously? How in the world is that an exploit? In my mind, an exploit is something that happens from people abusing a system in the game to unfairly get an advantage. Am I wrong here? That's an exploit, right? Abusing something in game to get an unfair advantage.

 

Right. So how the hell is killing enemies with a team specifically intended to do so an exploit? Please, explain your thinking here so I can try and wade through the swamp of idiocy I'm seeing here.

 

And if you people who called for nerfs for Viver are just sitting back with your smug smirk on like "Aw yiss, DE listened to me *@##$ing about people playing their game and fixed it." then lemme just tell you- 

 

You ain't done shiiiiiiiiiit, kids. So you got'm to nerf one way or farming efficiently. Whoopity doo. Now they're just gonna find another. Then what? You cry till DE nerfs again? Okay. We'll keep repeating that until you realize that the game is now unplayable due to your constant whining and the nerfs that it brought.

 

People will always look for the most efficient way to do something; thus, the best way to counteract this is to simply PROVIDE the best way for them to do so. That way, you, the designer, KNOW that THIS SPECIFIC WAY is supposed to be the most efficient way to do something, and any balance changes made can take that into account. Do people seem to be gaining Rep too fast? Nerf the thing you specifically implemented to be the "best" way to gain rep, but keep it as something better than any other alternative so you don't have this issue where someone finds something you didn't expect or prepare for.

 

But yeah. Whatever, I've just been doing a slow grind for syndicates as is. Didn't really want to bother with it too much once I found out they wanted a friggin' tater as an offering. I just kinda shook my head and said screw it after that.

 

An Orokin Reactor, maybe, sure... but a Catalyst? Hell no. That's stupid. There's like 20 frames in this game and like 100 or more weapons, so I can justify a Reactor cuz' I'm probably not going to build ALL 20+ warframes, cuz' not all of them interest me. Catalysts are a different story, as there are so many weapons to play with and a Catalyst SIGNIFICANTLY improves the capabilities of any weapon. Forma are also fine to be sacrificed since I get so many from the void, and they're farmable. Prime parts? Eh. Sure, again. You can farm them. But catalysts? That's not quite so easy to farm.

[elixze]

I do not even use these frames, but still upset about the entire thing. Will my Perfect(not so Perfect) Volt be nerfed? Will it become a trutle, what is next?

 

I will wait, I can understand the frustrations, many games have fallen because of small missteps, nerf this, nerf that or overpower this. Someone in the community wanted something gone, the rest had to suffer. DE listens to us, then listen again, remove viver, but revert the frames ablilties.

 

My Excel still been Cooking, and it will keep on Cooking to a solution is made. Trinity, in my old account was my main, but she has fadded, She is kept as a memory in my Inventory. Stay Strong(not so useful healer). Mag, I won't do Corpus missions With you anymore...

 

My volt is my fav, just do not nerf him, he is good for now, I'd have him not touched, a bugg might be neat, but do not put him where Trinity and the gang is.

[Elvang]

Going to put this out there, the time it would take to test and properly implement the LoS feature to all of these abilities would lead me to believe these changes were incoming before talk of the Viver shenanigans started.

Thus, I don't see them as connected, at this time, and if they aren't connected, it was probably a bad idea to release it in such a manner.

The existence of several LoS bugs attached to the changed abilities kind of indicates otherwise. Mag's shield polarize not affecting herself is pretty noticable.

 

EDIT: I'd be surprised if they weren't re-using the functions that trim the target list to just what is in LoS. The only thing that is changing about these abilities is that the effects are limited to targets in view, and from the descriptions its behaving exactly the way Radial Blind currently picks targets. Its running the function with mag and excal as the source point, and the energy vampire'd target as the source point.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Elvang

[Ayarai]

Going to put this out there, the time it would take to test and properly implement the LoS feature to all of these abilities would lead me to believe these changes were incoming before talk of the Viver shenanigans started.

Thus, I don't see them as connected, at this time, and if they aren't connected, it was probably a bad idea to release it in such a manner.

 

Cleaned the thread up a bit.

 

Were these changes tested properly though? Take Mag for example, Shield Polarize no longer restores your own shields. If the changes were properly tested, then any competent testing would have caught that bug - unless it is undocumented nerf, which I sort of doubt.

 

Instead, I'd play with the idea of someone hastily thinking up a way to counter Mag being so popular among Viver farmers and coming up with the idea of re-using the existing LoS check code they've implemented on another ability. While forgetting that Shield Polarize should also affect the player and not just the enemies/friendlies within their line of sight.

[LukeAura]

Going to put this out there, the time it would take to test and properly implement the LoS feature to all of these abilities would lead me to believe these changes were incoming before talk of the Viver shenanigans started.

Thus, I don't see them as connected, at this time, and if they aren't connected, it was probably a bad idea to release it in such a manner.

It seems highly unlikely they'd be rolled out without prior warning unlike Radial Blind's, effect the exact three abilities being commonly used in Viver, and not touch any other abilities with the idea, while one of those abilities was just buffed to work against a LoS restriction it had, and have it not be about Viver. 

They just came up with an improved LoS algorithm for Radial Blind as well, any way competent coding could easily splice that check in to other abilities. 

 

[IVARS]

Agreed, DE please give Xcaliber his Powers back, The radial Javelin needs to be buffed or the recovery time reduced, along with radial blind.... Also Mag Prime's Shield Polarize is prectically useless now, I personally think that the Limiting Reputation nerf was all that needed to be done.  Nerfing the warframes was just wrong wrong wrong. I hope DE can do something about this to rectify this, i'm not the only one this angered apparenty.

Edited November 15, 2014 by IVARS