In Reaction To Trinity Changes: "what Am I Meant To Do With Energy Vampire Now"

[Neocyberman]

Warframes maps and enemy AI isnt suited for line of sight mechanics. Especially not trinity's new one.

 

Lets do a test for those of you who are observant of the map design. Where is trinity supposed to use energy vampire? Best case scenario is activating energy vampire on single enemies that are:

-Exposed to the whole team

-Are aware of the whole team

-Likely at a high elevation

-Will die within the line of sight window

 

Can you, the reader think of a map where that is likely to happen? I struggle to.

 

What was the goal here, what was this meant to prevent? Trinity from being able to give players energy? I want to end this on a suggestion about an alternative... but I actually dont understand what this change was meant to do?

 

The most I can offer is please consider that maps are not built for this, they are often corners and hallways.

 

Anyone else have a better grasp of what is going on here with this change/discussion?

Edited November 13, 2014 by Neocyberman

[Ryker]

More so what /can/ you do with Trinity? She's worthless to me now after that earlier mega nerf... .Tell me.. How to Trinity 

[SgtFlex]

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/318686-forum-game-better-nerf-trinity/?hl=%2Bbetter+%2Bnerf+%2Btrinity

 

Seriously, it seems like she's always being touched when she isn't nearly as godly as she used to be. I guess they're perhaps trying to do an LOS pass on EVERY ability now. Before we now it, things like Loki Disarm are going to get an LoS Nerf.

Edited November 13, 2014 by SgtFlex

[UndeadGhostWarrior]

the reason i stop playing this someday will be the nerfs

[nickelshark]

Well it's still good for boss fights right?....cricket...cricket....cricket. It just made more of spam ability then it was before. LOS was never considerd when the maps where made or at least it sure seems that way. With the way WF plays especially now that enemies actually take cover LOS hardly fits.

 

It's as if DE are trying to take out the ability to support each other with abilities. If anything this is just encouraging players to huddle together so they can all get energy from trin's EV rather than go out and capture points. If you want us to spread out then at least give us the ability to support each other from range.

Edited November 13, 2014 by nickelshark

[MichaelSD]

the reason i stop playing this someday will be the nerfs

 

Same here. I will wait what the devs say, but if they almighty "it is right what we did" speach comes along I am out.

[EChondo]

Can you, the reader think of a map where that is likely to happen? I struggle to.

Depending on how the team's coordination is with each other, then either indoor or outdoor Defense maps.

 

Everywhere else? No idea, worthless to me now.

[MegpoidBeetle]

And meanwhile Grineer Commanders don't even need to see you to ST with you. Great job, DE.

[elixze]

Tenno are few, enemies many. We Tennos suffer and become weaker. RIP Trinity(for now) your usefulness will be remembered.

Edited November 13, 2014 by elixze

[TheGrimGamer]

Now as I understand it Energy Vamp prior to this LOS nerf could pass through anything right? Because in that case all that needs to happen to balance it is to stop it from travelling through anything solid. That way people couldn't be behind things and getting silly amounts of energy from an enemy that may not even be nearby.

[MegpoidBeetle]

Now as I understand it Energy Vamp prior to this LOS nerf could pass through anything right? Because in that case all that needs to happen to balance it is to stop it from travelling through anything solid. That way people couldn't be behind things and getting silly amounts of energy from an enemy that may not even be nearby.

Trinity is a support frame, and Energy Vamp being an energy pulse it doesn't need LoS to work. Neither does Link or Blessing rely on LoS, Link's energy literally goes through walls connecting with enemies and Blessing has infinite range.

[Yorinar]

things like Loki Disarm are going to get an LoS Nerf.

 

don't be surprised

 

I don't understand DE's fascination with destroying Trinity, tbh.  Perhaps they don't like the religiously themed name.  

 

EV was already a line of sight to cast ability.  That means you have to actually aim and trigger on a strafing mob (who all like to dance around in circles making that even more fun).  Just to use the ability requires as much skill as the main activity of this game: pointing your reticule at something and clicking.  Now using EV effectively isn't as much about skill as it is about luck since you have to hope people will still be in LOS of the victim:  something you can't even reliably estimate since you have no way of knowing what obstacle is blocking your fellow tenno.  It's not like we have built-in raytracers to determine that.  So we're left with luck.  All praise RNG.

 

What that means in effect, as players well know, is that you are always better off just shooting that mob instead of trying to land EV.  At least by shooting it you have a chance of getting an energy ball that carrier will pick up regardless  of line of sight (not for much longer, i'm sure!).

[Grilleds]

Warframes maps and enemy AI isnt suited for line of sight mechanics. 

I stopped reading here. Line of sight mechanics... You mean like what... Gun's use? 

 

Yeah, not a very good opening.

 

----

I'm just going to make a couple assumptions given where I stopped reading and how often I've encountered threads like this. 

-This thread is a "My favorite frame is nerfed so I'm whining" thread.

-Someone, possibly the OP is going to make a threat to quit playing because their favored frames keep getting nerfed. 

-Someone will directly, or indirectly insult one or more DE staff members, most likely calling them childish in a roundabout way.

-Absolutely nobody will suggest nerfing other frames to bring the average warframe power level to a sane standard

-If someone does mention nerfing other frames, it will almost certainly be a post expressing horror at the idea

-Despite all the complaints, nobody or almost nobody will offer any suggestions. If they do offer one, it will be "Revert the nerfs".

Edited November 13, 2014 by Grilleds

[Riot_Inducer]

I stopped reading here. Line of sight mechanics... You mean like what... Gun's use? 

 

Yeah, not a very good opening.

 

----

I'm just going to make a couple assumptions given where I stopped reading and how often I've encountered threads like this. 

-This thread is a "My favorite frame is nerfed so I'm whining" thread.

-Someone, possibly the OP is going to make a threat to quit playing because their favored frames keep getting nerfed. 

-Someone will directly, or indirectly insult one or more DE staff members, most likely calling them childish in a roundabout way.

-Absolutely nobody will suggest nerfing other frames to bring the average warframe power level to a sane standard

-If someone does mention nerfing other frames, it will almost certainly be a post expressing horror at the idea

-Despite all the complaints, nobody or almost nobody will offer any suggestions. If they do offer one, it will be "Revert the nerfs".

Just curious but why did you feel compelled to make this post? If you came to these assumptions after you, admittedly, stopped reading what was the point? Just to be rude to the folks in the thread based off your assumptions? Yes I've seen threads like this go south and not offer anything constructive but your post doesn't exactly set a high precedent itself.

 

For my part I don't see why anything other than a revert of this change needs to be suggested. I don't think energy vampire has ever been a problem ability that requires it's power to have such additional limits placed on it. Furthermore requiring line of sight is counterintuitive with the visuals of the ability, it's a spherical energy pulse. One could be outside of LoS of the target and still see the energy pulses washing over their frame, if they intend to stick with this change energy vampire is going to need a complete visual rework to better reflect its functionality.  

[SgtFlex]

I stopped reading here. Line of sight mechanics... You mean like what... Gun's use? 

 

Yeah, not a very good opening.

 

----

I'm just going to make a couple assumptions given where I stopped reading and how often I've encountered threads like this. 

-This thread is a "My favorite frame is nerfed so I'm whining" thread.

-Someone, possibly the OP is going to make a threat to quit playing because their favored frames keep getting nerfed. 

-Someone will directly, or indirectly insult one or more DE staff members, most likely calling them childish in a roundabout way.

-Absolutely nobody will suggest nerfing other frames to bring the average warframe power level to a sane standard

-If someone does mention nerfing other frames, it will almost certainly be a post expressing horror at the idea

-Despite all the complaints, nobody or almost nobody will offer any suggestions. If they do offer one, it will be "Revert the nerfs".

I wouldn't go off of assumption. This discussion is actually a bit more reasonable. I mean, there has been an absurd amount of Trinity nerfs as of late due to no reason. She had no reason to be touched further after her blessing got nerfed, ESPECIALLY EV. It's a very small range direct-reticule abilitiy that now requires LoS, and can be easily killed in a matter of seconds.

 

Im all against unthoughtful discussions, but this is by no means one. The question being asked here commonly is: Why?

 

DE still hasn't given reason for why they keep nerfing Trinity. She becomes less and less of a used frame, yet they keep nerfing her to the ground. Im all for nerfs as well, it adds variety to the game, but don't defeat the actual purpose of the thing you're nerfing so hard into the ground that no one uses it.

 

IMO, most frames are on the verge of balance. I don't see a whole lot of OP ones (off the top of my head), but instead there's ones that need to be buffed, mainly the damage-based ones. Most frames are on balance, but even then, suggesting nerfing other frames in this thread is off-topic, so it wouldn't make sense to make such a suggestion.

 

Just, think and read before you post next time. Your post is just about as unconstructive as people that go haywire when there's a nerf.

Edited November 13, 2014 by SgtFlex

[Noble_Cactus]

Line of Sight can work in Warframe. But not on Energy Vampire, which works differently than almost any other ability in the game. It requires teammates to stay near the enemy to use it, possibly behind cover, so they can recoup their energy before heading back out into the fight. 

 

DE gets into these balancing ruts every few months. Just recently, DE started balancing abilities by making them toggle-able (with the one making the least sense being Renewal). Now the trend is to put LoS on abilities, which is something that very few people brought up before but is now Public Enemy No.1. LoS and toggles can both be implemented well when used on the right abilities. The problem is that DE is putting them on the wrong abilities.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Noble_Cactus

[TheGrimGamer]

Trinity is a support frame, and Energy Vamp being an energy pulse it doesn't need LoS to work. Neither does Link or Blessing rely on LoS, Link's energy literally goes through walls connecting with enemies and Blessing has infinite range.

All I know is that it feels pretty OP in missions where you don't move around a lot like defence and interception. It may not be the way it reaches the players that's the issue though or idk, maybe my experiences with Trinity are just different from other peoples and it wasn't quite as powerful as I thought it was.

[Grilleds]

Just curious but why did you feel compelled to make this post? If you came to these assumptions after you, admittedly, stopped reading what was the point? Just to be rude to the folks in the thread based off your assumptions? Yes I've seen threads like this go south and not offer anything constructive but your post doesn't exactly set a high precedent itself.

 

For my part I don't see why anything other than a revert of this change needs to be suggested. I don't think energy vampire has ever been a problem ability that requires it's power to have such additional limits placed on it. Furthermore requiring line of sight is counterintuitive with the visuals of the ability, it's a spherical energy pulse. One could be outside of LoS of the target and still see the energy pulses washing over their frame, if they intend to stick with this change energy vampire is going to need a complete visual rework to better reflect its functionality.  

It probably wasn't a good idea for me to make that post, but I am quite frankly tired of people just making angry responses to every nerf and acting like it's the end of the world. This community is pretty predictable. 

 

The nerf was somewhat pointless but it won't actually change Trinity being a top pick. Heck they could nerf her to have zero armor and halved move speed and she would still be a top pick. It's not like Energy Vampire suddenly dropped to being underpowered. The fact is, the current gameplay is basically press 4 in every room and only use guns when you run out of energy. EV means that the latter scenario never happens.I'm starting to think the game would actually be better off if DE got a little more nerf happy.

 

I'd rather DE just reworked the radial nuke ultimates instead of doing random nerfs to the frames that don't even have them. But... That's not going to happen.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Grilleds

[HyokaChan]

Energy Vampire is not a freaking sun. It should not need to bathe you in some kind of glorious ray of light to replenish your energy.

[MegpoidBeetle]

All I know is that it feels pretty OP in missions where you don't move around a lot like defence and interception. It may not be the way it reaches the players that's the issue though or idk, maybe my experiences with Trinity are just different from other peoples and it wasn't quite as powerful as I thought it was.

Trinity was very once considered OP due to the invincibility granted by Blessing and also the 100% reflection of the old Link, she was an even better tank than Rhino and Frost back then but now I'm not even sure does OP apply on her. And are you implying that you don't like getting free energy that will help you succeed in completing your mission?

[RiouHotaru]

Energy Vampire literally hasn't changed much, since only one of two conditions has to be met to gain energy from the pulses:

 

- Enemy must be able to see you

 

or

 

- You must be able to see enemy

 

If their of those are met, you gain energy from EV.  All this does is make EV not a fire-and-forget skill.

[Reaver_X]

yeah no, line of sight has got to go, lol

[BrazilianJoe]

Makes Trinity not as much reliable as a support frame anymore. Support must be reliable. 

 

Increasing range, but countering with falloff would have been a better change IMO. 

[Avalona]

As someone who main Trinity and still has the most-used frame being her and still going strong, the EV nerf is uncalled for.

 

Being support class, the abilities must be reliable to the team. This is something I've learned from my many decades of gaming experience playing solely support class in every single game I've ever played. Everyone in your team move constantly, same goes to your enemies. This is why in MMORPG active healer class always have either instant-effect or lock-on healing, and not "chance to maybe trigger heal when they're not looking". Trinity is active supporter, not passive kind, and her abilities must be treated as such. (heck, even passive healers don't get "maybe this heal will reach you, maybe it won't" kind of spell ever)

 

In fact, LoS need to be removed from Warframe as a whole. Just because DE's discovered the code doesn't mean they must add this to everything. LoS in Warframe setting is akin to firing a nuke superweapon in real-time strategy game that ended up dealing 20% of intended damage because some other buildings blocked the blast radius. Another comparison is like saying the player targeted with heal must turn to you and accept the heal from a pop-up prompt whenever the spell is cast.

 

Sound stupid isn't it? This is what it look like in Warframe now, where waist-high obstacles and railings can entirely block sight and skill effects, for reason unknown.

[7.T.]

   LoS doesn't make any sense for an ability that does a basically spherical pulse of energy. Unless you want decide what type of energy it is to explain why it has to be seen/see you or can/can't pass through solid stuff but this is a game so... no thanks. No LoS for Trin.