Line Of Sight Is Not A Nerf.

[RiouHotaru]

Requiring that players take a more active role in combat is not a nerf.  Besides, with the addition of "Memory" (The five second window you have to hit something after LoS is broken) it's still very easy to use Radial Javelin and Shield Polarize.  This simply means you can't peek the camera around a corner or something, see a bunch of enemies and press 4 on Excal.

 

I used Excal quite a few times for missions today and overall saw no significant impact in my performance.  But then I played very aggressive.  Mag might see some performance loss, but then I never used Shield Polarize on her much in the first place.

 

Also, if you're going to use the "But T4 missions!" argument, I'll counter right now with the obvious:  At the point that exposing yourself means getting dropped in short order, you wouldn't be using RJ in the first place.  You're going to be sticking to your gun or spamming RB instead.  And at that level of enemy scaling that you're going to be dropped in seconds, EVERY frame has issues.

 

This isn't a nerf, it's a change to balance to premptively stop exploitation, we'll adapt and move on like we did with the initial changes.

[UndeadGhostWarrior]

u clearly have not used mag/excal/trinity enough to know how much of a nerf it really was\\

 

 

EDIT: This game isnt all about viver. Your logic is to stop 1 expoilt, 3 frames and the entire interception need a balance?

WRONG . There were plenty other ways to stop viver number 1 being just deleting the node instead of nerfing everything

Edited November 13, 2014 by UndeadGhostWarrior

[letir]

Exc's ult is slow. It was slow before, and it is slow right now. You will be killed before (or after) exectuion. This is a nerf.

 

Mag's Shield Polarise is her only end-game power. This is a nerf. And magnetic powers blocked by walls? All my school years was a mistake then.

[Wynn]

 Mag might see some performance loss, but then I never used Shield Polarize on her much in the first place.

 

 

So you never used SP which means you have not been using Mag right,

 

Problem wasn't the frames but the node and how long rep takes.

 

The Mag nerf also affected her Heal so she got hit 2 times.

[RiouHotaru]

Who said anything about Viver?  This was intended to fix Excalibur for ANY form of future exploitation.

[Satwo]

nerf isnt the correct word. Debuff is more appropriate. the skills worked like this long ago.

 

a rework of the abilities makes more sense, and making a new, bigger map makes even more sense then reworking abilities.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Satwo

[Cannamancer]

It was a nerf, making the frames bad to fix a broken system doesn't fix it lol.

[Nitresco]

u clearly have not used mag/excal/trinity enough to know how much of a nerf it really was\\

I have.

 

It doesn't seem to be as much of a pain as people make it out to be.

[letir]

Who said anything about Viver?  This was intended to fix Excalibur from ANY form of future.

fixed for you

Edited November 13, 2014 by letir

[Cannamancer]

Who said anything about Viver?  This was intended to fix Excalibur for ANY form of future exploitation.

Take off the tinfoil hat buddy, it was for viver lol.

[RiouHotaru]

Exc's ult is slow. It was slow before, and it is slow right now. You will be killed before (or after) exectuion. This is a nerf.

 

Mag's Shield Polarise is her only end-game power. This is a nerf. And magnetic powers blocked by walls? All my school years was a mistake then.

 

If the speed of the animation bugs you?

 

1) Get better at your timing on how to use it

2) Get a Natural Talent mod; both Ember, Nekros, and even Mirage suffer from really long animation Ultimates.  ANY of those risk getting you killed mid-cast.

3) Catch LoS on a group of targets, break LoS, use the five second window to press 4 and still nail them anyway.

 

Shield Polarize isn't her ONLY end-game power, clearly you haven't used Mag that much.

Take off the tinfoil hat buddy, it was for viver lol.

 

The ability to kill targets you don't even know are there (enemies you can't see) is a change that works beyond Viver.

[Elvang]

This isn't a nerf, it's a change to balance to premptively stop exploitation, we'll adapt and move on like we did with the initial changes.

Focusing on Limbo's bugged abilities to prevent energy regen was a preemptive exploitation bug strike, as it's the next logical alternate to trinity now. Nerfing, as this definitely isn't a buff, the other listed abilities wasn't preemptive, but reactive, and not even to an exploit (we aren't exploiting viver, as their refusal to simply change its spawn rate/radius indicates its intended; most groups were running AD vs BC setups anyhow, so the patch didn't even change that). Preemptive balancing would've been hitting Stomp, Miasma, World on Fire, and Sound Quake with LoS restrictions as well as those are now being using as very effective alternatives. Or, you know, simply lowering Interception's spawn rate across the board would have been considered preemptive as well to prevent us from continuing to run it.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Elvang

[WhisperByte]

"In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that makes something less effective or desirable. The word can be used as a verb to describe that change.[1][2] The opposite of nerf is buff."

 

so yeah, it's a nerf

Edited November 13, 2014 by WhisperByte

[MichaelSD]

If the speed of the animation bugs you?

 

1) Get better at your timing on how to use it

2) Get a Natural Talent mod; both Ember, Nekros, and even Mirage suffer from really long animation Ultimates.  ANY of those risk getting you killed mid-cast.

3) Catch LoS on a group of targets, break LoS, use the five second window to press 4 and still nail them anyway.

 

Shield Polarize isn't her ONLY end-game power, clearly you haven't used Mag that much.

 

The ability to kill targets you don't even know are there (enemies you can't see) is a change that works beyond Viver.

 

1. I am good enough, thanks.

2. The stun is so short it does not matter.

3. That will not work on above level 30.

[Rydian]

Adding additional requirements for targeting that lowers the number of targets that can be hit by an ability.

 

Making the ability weaker.

 

"Nerf"ing it.

[RiouHotaru]

 

"In video gaming, a nerf is a change to a game that makes something less effective or desirable. The word can be used as a verb to describe that change.[1][2] The opposite of nerf is buff."

 

so yeah, it's a nerf

 

 

It's only a nerf if you considered the present state of play to be "fixed" or "normal" in the first place.  RJ let you kill enemies you couldn't even see or even knew existed just by pressing a button.

[Wynn]

Who said anything about Viver?  This was intended to fix Excalibur for ANY form of future exploitation.

The changes was because of Viver

If it was just Excalibur Mag and Trinity won't have been touched, the change also erases the buff Excalibur just got.

 

So yeah its a huge coincidences that the 3 frames that people use for Viver got nerf, most people get that the nerf was solely because of Viver and us gaining rep too fast.

[Elvang]

It's only a nerf if you considered the present state of play to be "fixed" or "normal" in the first place.  RJ let you kill enemies you couldn't even see or even knew existed just by pressing a button.

I'd consider the pre-LoS state to be intended, as Radial Javalin was intentionally buffed to target all enemies without cap in the radius. Just because the frame later became the focus of 4 mashing doesn't change their intention when they made that buff. It's not listed under fixes for a reason, because that previous state wasn't unintentional.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Elvang

[Yurilica]

This isn't a nerf, it's a change to balance to premptively stop exploitation, we'll adapt and move on like we did with the initial changes.

 

I have two options.

 

One is to insult you and tell you you really have no idea what you're talking about, the other is to politely explain that you're actually wrong.

 

I'll choose the latter and try being polite.

 

It's like this. I'll talk about it from the perspective of normal gameplay, not Viver.

 

In 3D action games with AoE abilities, line of sight is a mechanic that is inherently risky.

 

It requires you to see your enemies, which in turn means that your enemies see you.

 

Now, try looking at what Mag and Excalibur have for their base stats and their skills.

 

Mag's Shield Polarize is essentially a support mechanic that can(but doesn't have to) disrupt enemy shields.

Mag is a Magnetic mage, a caster frame. She likes to spam her abilities and Shield Polarize was beneficial for that in normal gameplay.

Logical question #1: How does magnetism work?

It sure as hell doesn't require line of sight to anything. Bring a large enough magnet and you can pull a truck over a wall with it, without seeing it.

In any case, in order to damage enemies with Shield Polarize now, she has to stand out of cover. It becomes a skill that puts her into danger instead of making her safer. The original design of her skill was to disrupt enemies while restoring shields for your team.

It simply does not do that anymore because the change on that skill forces Mag to jump in and risk getting shot to bits.

No experienced Warframe player will EVER do that.

 

Excalibur's Javelin used to be a skill that no one used because it required Excalibur to stand in the middle of a group of enemies for maximum effectiveness. It was a blind-fire skill that didn't exactly require line of sight, but you still had to be in a position where all the enemies you wanted to hit saw you too. It didn't go through doors or walls. It hit stuff in a circle around you and that was it.

Then DE changed that so it hit everything in a radius around him, regardless if it was behind a wall or not, as well as adding a short stun period for enemies if they survived his ult. And that was great and made Excalibur finally strong enough to be useful in something like long survival missions or generally high level content.

With this latest change, Excalibur now requires line of sight to hit enemies. Think about that for a second.

Although the ability is no longer blind-fire, Excal still has to position himself in such a way that he can be attacked. And unlike Mag, the casting time on his ult is much longer, so he's exposed to gunfire from any enemies that were behind cover at that point.

Excal dies in a second in high level content. Pure and simple.

Now, think about that skill for a minute. His "new" ult has a stun. It's his "oh S#&$!" button that he uses to disable enemies around him for a time, either for a counterattack or an escape. He uses that WHEN he's in trouble. But with the line of sight changes, now he has to stand where enemies see him to hit them, it's a skill that actually PUTS him INTO trouble.

 

Both of these points are multiplied by the fact that DE recently did some changes to the way enemies aim and now all ranged enemies have much higher accuracy.

 

In other words - using Mag or Excalibur in higher level Grineer missions is a literal death sentence. If you try using Shield Polarize or Javelin, you die. No ifs or buts, you get shot to pieces with perfect accuracy. That goes for anything with a hitscan weapon actually.

 

You see, DE maybe nerfed those Warframes because they were popular in farming Viver...

 

But they failed to consider that they also gutted them and made them almost useless in mid-high level content now. It's a horrible nerf. What they should've done is nerf Viver or completely remove it from the star chart until they find a proper solution.

 

Because nerfing those 3 frames did NOTHING for Viver. Players have already replaced them with Saryn, Volt and others.

 

Warframes are just tools for farming and Viver is the farm. DE needs to burn the farm, not break the tools.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Yurilica

[letir]

If the speed of the animation bugs you?

 

1) Get better at your timing on how to use it

2) Get a Natural Talent mod; both Ember, Nekros, and even Mirage suffer from really long animation Ultimates.  ANY of those risk getting you killed mid-cast.

3) Catch LoS on a group of targets, break LoS, use the five second window to press 4 and still nail them anyway.

 

Shield Polarize isn't her ONLY end-game power, clearly you haven't used Mag that much.

1) Better timing - use it, when enemies in LoS. If they are in Los, they can hit and kill you. If you don't have support from CC frame, there is no "timing".

2) Why should i use mod for normal using of my ult? I can just bring another with normal "press 4 to win" like Saryn or Rhino.

3) Catch a LoS, Catch a shot, Die. That's how T4 or 50+lvl works

 

Shield Polarize is the scalling power. Pull is utility tool, Crush is worthless. You aren't play Mag on high levels, then Crush isn't working - what's why you can't see a nerf.

Edited November 13, 2014 by letir

[lianjifei]

But T4 missions！！

just kidding, I would say this make Excalibur take a much bigger risk for a some-what-ok damage skill.

And not ever Excalibur is like requiring a Talented mod and still way to easy to die for a melee warframe.

[MegpoidBeetle]

It's only a nerf if you considered the present state of play to be "fixed" or "normal" in the first place.  RJ let you kill enemies you couldn't even see or even knew existed just by pressing a button.

Enemy Radar

 

and with a twist of irony you have Ash as your icon.

[Drasiel]

I agree with you OP

 

ps. I await your counter points MichaelSD :P as we seem to keep running into each other and having the same conversation.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Letter13
removed spam

[Cannamancer]

I have two options.

 

One is to insult you and tell you you really have no idea what you're talking about, the other is to politely explain that you're actually wrong.

 

I'll choose the latter and try being polite.

 

It's like this. I'll talk about it from the perspective of normal gameplay, not Viver.

 

In 3D action games with AoE abilities, line of sight is a mechanic that is inherently risky.

 

It requires you to see your enemies, which in turn means that your enemies see you.

 

Now, try looking at what Mag and Excalibur have for their base stats and their skills.

 

Mag's Shield Polarize is essentially a support mechanic that can(but doesn't have to) disrupt enemy shields.

Mag is a Magnetic mage, a caster frame. She likes to spam her abilities and Shield Polarize was beneficial for that in normal gameplay.

Logical question #1: How does magnetism work?

It sure as hell doesn't require line of sight to anything. Bring a large enough magnet and you can pull a truck over a wall with it, without seeing it.

In any case, in order to damage enemies with Shield Polarize now, she has to stand out of cover. It becomes a skill that puts her into danger instead of making her safer. The original design of her skill was to disrupt enemies while restoring shields for your team.

It simply does not do that anymore because the change on that skill forces Mag to jump in and risk getting shot to bits.

No experienced Warframe player will EVER do that.

 

Excalibur's Javelin used to be a skill that no one used because it required Excalibur to stand in the middle of a group of enemies for maximum effectiveness. It was a blind-fire skill that didn't exactly require line of sight, but you still had to be in a position where all the enemies you wanted to hit saw you too. It didn't go through doors or walls. It hit stuff in a circle around you and that was it.

Then DE changed that so it hit everything in a radius around him, regardless if it was behind a wall or not, as well as adding a short stun period for enemies if they survived his ult. And that was great and made Excalibur finally strong enough to be useful in something like long survival missions or generally high level content.

With this latest change, Excalibur now requires line of sight to hit enemies. Think about that for a second.

Although the ability is no longer blind-fire, Excal still has to position himself in such a way that he can be attacked. And unlike Mag, the casting time on his ult is much longer, so he's exposed to gunfire from any enemies that were behind cover at that point.

Excal dies in a second in high level content. Pure and simple.

Now, think about that skill for a minute. His "new" ult has a stun. It's his "oh S#&$!" button that he uses to disable enemies around him for a time, either for a counterattack or an escape. He uses that WHEN he's in trouble. But with the line of sight changes, now he has to stand where enemies see him to hit them, it's a skill that actually PUTS him INTO trouble.

 

Both of these points are multiplied by the fact that DE recently did some changes to the way enemies aim and now all ranged enemies have much higher accuracy.

 

In other words - using Mag or Excalibur in higher level Grineer missions is a literal death sentence. If you try using Shield Polarize or Javelin, you die. No ifs or buts, you get shot to pieces with perfect accuracy. That goes for anything with a hitscan weapon actually.

 

You see, DE maybe nerfed those Warframes because they were popular in farming Viver...

 

But they failed to consider that they also gutted them and made them almost useless in mid-high level content now. It's a horrible nerf. What they should've done is nerf Viver or completely remove it from the star chart until they find a proper solution.

 

Because nerfing those 3 frames did NOTHING for Viver. Players have already replaced them with Saryn, Volt and others.

 

Warframes are just tools for farming and Viver is the farm. DE needs to burn the farm, not break the tools.

You sir win, this is godlike.

[Wynn]

Also Mag can't heal teammates now that are not in LoS so she lost most of her utility.