Line Of Sight Is Not A Nerf.

[Xeo_Nespydonum]

Arguing RJ is useless because of it's minimal impact (ha) on the highest of high-tier content doesn't work.  Abilities have to balanced against ALL possible content, not just the extreme upper end.

 

- You can't use it's damage as it's sole property of whether it's good or not.  Having one of the largest base ranges still gives it the ability to hit the widest area possible.

 

- Again, the fact the damage is 1000 IPS is of little consequence, compared to other Ults which either to wait for a long cast time (Frost, Ember, Mirage) or have to deal damage over a series of ticks as opposed to a burst (Mirage, Saryn)

 

- Total animation time is at most, 3.5 seconds.  The actual cast?  ~1 second.  Easily one of the shortest cast times in Warframe.  Stun lasts at least 2 seconds if not more than the post-cast recovery frames.

 

- The point is that the damage is immediately front-loaded.  Other ultimates either have a lengthy cast time during which they are vulnerable, or don't deal all of it's damage instantly.  That property alone is extremely powerful.

 

- No target cap means Javelin has the highest maximum possible DPS since it's upper DPS limit is solely limited to the number of the targets it hits, and with a massive range?  Yeah.

 

Basically, the post-balance Javelin was operating just like pre-balance Blind.

Nukes are boring; and what's the point of them if our guns are more effective in the end anyway.  DE should focus on making all the frames more interesting and remove the very idea of the "win button"  The frames should have latent personality about them, something tied in with there very core design that makes you play a different way than if you were to be using another frame.  Excalibur is a swordsman, he should feel like a swordsman and have abilities and stats that emphasize swordplay rather than just have fancy little sword graphics.

[Grilleds]

nerf isnt the correct word. Debuff is more appropriate. the skills worked like this long ago.

 

a rework of the abilities makes more sense, and making a new, bigger map makes even more sense then reworking abilities.

Agreed. People don't seem to remember just how bad Trinity used to be. She's been buffed immensely since the game hit Steam.

 

Actually I think Trinity might have gotten both more buffs and more nerfs than any other frame in the game.

 

Then how about if we make all AOE abilities to be line of sight.

Works for me. 

 

Let's see:

- Javelin has one of the longest base ranges (25m), matched only by a few others

Since damage is only usable until level 25-30 it is of not much help. Below that nearly every power works, not only RJ

 

- All damage is front-loaded, literally the moment you cast, you do damage (since cast time is ~1 second)

See above, the damage is of not much use around half of the time.

 

- Stun that's at least 4 seconds, allowing plenty of time to move or continue attack

4 second is nothing considering the casting animation is longer.

 

- Damage occurs instantly since Javelins spawn on top of appropriate targets (compared to World on Fire, which has to kill targets one-at-a-time, or with Ash, where clones have to get to a target to kill them)

Again, what use is the damage, if it does not kill the target?

 

- No target cap

That was the only good thing about it.

Damage only works up to level 30? Are you aware that Viver STARTED at level 30? Besides, with a Trinity using EV, the worst case scenario is you need to use your damage ult twice rather than once. Oh the horror. In my experience it's at around level 50 where utility skills finally and unambiguously overtake damage ones in general effectiveness, and even then there are a couple exceptions such as Nova's Antimatter Drop and M-Prime. Very little of the game's content is actually over level 50 anyway.

[Bernkastal]

you should NEVER have to question about when to use a SUSTAIN ability for the fear of not being able to cast it again. been experimenting with my friend, a trinity main, and he's actively been losing energy on a power strength and duration build. it's simply too big of a chore to a frame whose attention should be on ally health bars, offtanking, and ccing/removing bigger threats.

[Grilleds]

you should NEVER have to question about when to use a SUSTAIN ability for the fear of not being able to cast it again. been experimenting with my friend, a trinity main, and he's actively been losing energy on a power strength and duration build. it's simply too big of a chore to a frame whose attention should be on ally health bars, offtanking, and ccing/removing bigger threats.

If they don't revert the nerf, I think they should mark the target on the minimap with a blue marker so that allies know when it has been cast.

[TwiceDead]

you should NEVER have to question about when to use a SUSTAIN ability for the fear of not being able to cast it again. been experimenting with my friend, a trinity main, and he's actively been losing energy on a power strength and duration build. it's simply too big of a chore to a frame whose attention should be on ally health bars, offtanking, and ccing/removing bigger threats.

Then don't build for minus power-efficiency. Replace Blind Rage with Transient Fortitude. 

 

If they don't revert the nerf, I think they should mark the target on the minimap with a blue marker so that allies know when it has been cast.

Here's a good idea, it is literally more information for the player! Information is power. I approve. 

Edited November 13, 2014 by TwiceDead

[TheFapman69]

I love how everyone wants to cry like toddlers over 3 frames getting changed. May I remind you there are others to use other than Excal, Trinity, and Mag? And Mag was hardly ever used anyway, so why complain about it now? And besides, how exactly is it a nerf to abilities if it just means you need to look? Either you are too damn lazy, or have nothing better to do with your time than cry.

[Marthrym]

Well, technically these ARE nerfs. Say what you will, but when X is better before than after... it's a nerf man.^^'

Also people are not so much "unhappy" about the nerfs as they are about WHY these nerfs happened. Devs made a big mistake when they tied standing to affinity, and instead of aknowledging it and fixing it in a logical, and more importantly, viable way, they made another booboo on top of the first one. Since other threads show that this method still works just as well, people just use other frames.

[Kestral9999]

I still like how not a single person that I've seen is complaining about the semi significant nerf to Nyx's Chaos.

 

Double standards ftw!!!

[vaugahn]

I still like how not a single person that I've seen is complaining about the semi significant nerf to Nyx's Chaos.

 

There was a chaos nerf?

[Temmron]

Rhino Stomp:

- Rhino is vulnerable during the entire animation.

 

Overload:

- Animation time + travel time inhibits spamming

 

Avalanche:

- Short post-cast recovery, but actual cast time is over 2 seconds base

 

Basically, Excal has a number of advantages over a large number of ultimates.  While not as focused in either damage or CC, it possesses no great specialization that cripples it's damage potential.

uhm you do know excal is vulnerable too during the casting animation r?

and his animation time also inhibits spamming

AND his ult takes longer than avalanche

 

Now if you want to say but...

Natural talent

Well

I can implement that on all those warframes to speed up casting

(why should I even waste a mod slot for it in the first place when i only have 8 slots?)

His radial stun does not affect all enemies but only close ranged ones

He is basically pre-U15 excal with a nerf to radial blind

Its not possible to use him in higher lvl missions anymore (wasnt possible anyway but now hes not even viable for mid-game)

 

Now to Mag

Her only and sole end-game viable skill was shield polarize,

dont fool yourself crush is useless in higher levels (just like excals RJ if you argument that way)

pull needs Los (hurray)

and I dont even know why bullet attractor should be viable in low-lvl game

 

DE has already commented on their update thread that dev-workshop threads for these issues will be released soon

There was a chaos nerf?

There wasnt

there was a mind-control change but no nerf

Edited November 13, 2014 by Seyenas

[Draciusen]

Wonder why all these nerf-happy people aren't clamoring for LoS on Loki's Radial Disarm.

 

It's easily the most game-changing, infinitely scaling, useful AoE CC in the game against 3/4 of all the enemies (The 1/4 being Infested of course) that is incredibly easy to build for and has a massive range with the right mods. It has a much more significant impact on enemies compared to Radial Javelin, Bladestorm, and Shield Polarize at all stages of play.

 

Oh that's right, nobody wants to nerf something that helps them.

[Kestral9999]

There was a chaos nerf?

You can technically call it that by most people's definition of nerf which seems to be:

"if x ability was subjectively or objectively better before a patch, its a nerf"

 

And yeah, it was mindcontrol not chaos my bad (I somehow get the two confused).

But since now you can't use mindcontrol on a heavy enemy and then kill it while it's distracted with killing its friends, it is technically worse and therefor a nerf. Warframe community logic in action.

 

I guess since hardly anyone uses Nyx's first two powers, it isn't a big deal. Once again, double standards ftw!

Edited November 13, 2014 by Kestral9999

[Temmron]

You can technically call it that by most people's definition of nerf which seems to be:

"if x ability was subjectively or objectively better before a patch, its a nerf"

 

And yeah, it was mindcontrol not chaos my bad (I somehow get the two confused).

But since now you can't use mindcontrol on a heavy enemy and then kill it while it's distracted with killing its friends, it is technically worse and therefor a nerf. Warframe community logic in action.

 

I guess since hardly anyone uses Nyx's first two powers, it isn't a big deal. Once again, double standards ftw!

well you can put an enemy in mindcontrol and shoot at it for the duration of your mind control and get really high numbers

(1st place in dmg end-screen YAAAY)

well thats the most important part for many people anyway E-dingeling ftw

So technically not a nerf and not a buff

(Thats why i said "change")

[vaugahn]

And yeah, it was mindcontrol not chaos my bad (I somehow get the two confused).

But since now you can't use mindcontrol on a heavy enemy and then kill it while it's distracted with killing its friends, it is technically worse and therefor a nerf. Warframe community logic in action.

 

I actually like the new mind control a lot better. Doofus pugs don't wreck my target every single time now. So for me, it's a buff.

[Temmron]

Wonder why all these nerf-happy people aren't clamoring for LoS on Loki's Radial Disarm.

 

It's easily the most game-changing, infinitely scaling, useful AoE CC in the game against 3/4 of all the enemies (The 1/4 being Infested of course) that is incredibly easy to build for and has a massive range with the right mods. It has a much more significant impact on enemies compared to Radial Javelin, Bladestorm, and Shield Polarize at all stages of play.

 

Oh that's right, nobody wants to nerf something that helps them.

Well i was opposed to nerfing these two frames anyway, because DE just stripped them of all viability in end-game

and now that you say it...

Lets nerf lokis invis too, its awfully long

Y´know what? lets nerf all skills by alot so that those two nerfs at the beginning were justified

Edited November 13, 2014 by Seyenas

[Noble_Cactus]

WRONG . There were plenty other ways to stop viver number 1 being just deleting the node instead of nerfing everything

 

Then everyone would have complained that they got rid of Viver. This also wouldn't have solved the problem of Syndicate farming being extremely tedious and unrewarding.

 

If anything, LoS changes bring to light that Warframe's base gameplay needs a rework. Using brainless nukes to succeed is, in my opinion, a sign of stale gameplay that should be addressed at some point.

[Cannamancer]

I love how everyone wants to cry like toddlers over 3 frames getting changed. May I remind you there are others to use other than Excal, Trinity, and Mag? And Mag was hardly ever used anyway, so why complain about it now? And besides, how exactly is it a nerf to abilities if it just means you need to look? Either you are too damn lazy, or have nothing better to do with your time than cry.

Only person I see crying is you and OP :3.

[NovemberCalamity]

I am honestly not sure if some high leveled Excalibur or Mag pissed you off or you're just trying to sweep a mess under the rug but no, these nerfs/debuffs/​Other terms that relate to the degradation of an item game-wise are unacceptable. I enrages me when you said Mag should just be nerfed and kicked aside, it shows how much consideration that you are putting into this post. As for why Line of Sight (LoS) is a nerf is simple:

 

1) Warframe's maps are too clunky. Its a common problem, I love Ash lots and his 3rd skill Teleport would not work on an enemy behind cover when I could see that enemy completely. "Target is blocked".... Clunky.

 

2) Why bother putting in AoEs that doesn't go through terrain when they place so much god damn obstacles. Logic aside, Example Mag's skills and Excalibur's Radial Blind You will find that AoE skills that is restricted under LoS, won't hit much, unless they are right up in your face which is a fifty, fifty. Fifty,Fifty as some cases you reach a room filled with obstacles, next you reach a room where enemies just spawn. However when they are at your face, would you try and cast an AoE.... Yeah but you could take advantage of their grouping and cut them into halves, wouldn't that be efficient?.... All in all, efficiency when you need AoE, down so its a bad thing.

 

3) Lastly, there are Death stares in Warframe. Why ? High level enemies stare at you while firing their weapons of death and destruction at you which ends your life seconds before you even cast your spell if you don't have your Natural Talent on. Even with Natural Talent, running into the middle of enemies and doing your AoE..... Not the brightest idea unless you're Rhino. An example as usual would be Excalibur's Radial Javelin can blind the enemies but it doesn't for long and seeing as Excali doesn't have much defenses, Wallhack Grineers and Laser accurate Corpus will destroy him.

 

In conclusion, these Nerfs are telling us, "No these Warframes can't late game, please use Loki only I know there are more late game Frames but...."  I don't want that. All Warframes are Overpowered Space Ninjas and they should all be able to handle some form of Late game. Right ?

[Grilleds]

Nerfs explained here:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/345295-vivergate-vent-radioactive-gas-yn/?p=3857074#entry3857074

[Nira]

Line of sight for Radial Blind makes sense. For Shield Polarize it does not... since when do magnetic forces observe line-of-sight?

[traybong111]

I wonder if LoS becomes another one of those words that tickle me whenever I hear them, like "immersion".

DE, I know LoS sounds like a grand idea right now like shoving in "immersion" and a series of $hitty UIs sounded awesome back then, but you know and I know damn well that you're bad at keeping up with all the stuff you dump in the game. I'm usually not this cynical and I'm more than confident in DE's capabilities to introduce LoS mechanics in the game. But considering LoS fix came as what feels like a knee-jerk nerf to Viver rather than a properly planned "fix" I highly, HIGHLY doubt DE will provide proper maintenance of it--they have more than enough problems to deal with as is.

[TwiceDead]

I wonder if LoS becomes another one of those words that tickle me whenever I hear them, like "immersion".

DE, I know LoS sounds like a grand idea right now like shoving in "immersion" and a series of $hitty UIs sounded awesome back then, but you know and I know damn well that you're bad at keeping up with all the stuff you dump in the game. I'm usually not this cynical and I'm more than confident in DE's capabilities to introduce LoS mechanics in the game. But considering LoS fix came as what feels like a knee-jerk nerf to Viver rather than a properly planned "fix" I highly, HIGHLY doubt DE will provide proper maintenance of it--they have more than enough problems to deal with as is.

 

This is actually a fair point. There is no denying that the way they implemented it right now was purely to put a stop to Viver exploitation, considering the three most used frames for the mission got the change applied to them. I hope this is a step towards further looks on LoS mechanics for the other frames, but I doubt this is the case. Right now I think their focus is to stop the semi-AFK farming and once that's been solved they are probably going to move on business as usual. It's true that the game has a few more pressing matters than LoS atm, but hey one thing at a time yeah? Or else it'll just be a messy ... Mess? ... Kindalikethecurrentstateofthegamebutwhatever.

[oceano4]

It was a nerf, making the frames bad to fix a broken system doesn't fix it lol.

Quote for great justice. 

[DSpite]

Enemy Radar

 

and with a twist of irony you have Ash as your icon.

 

I never really care what changes DE does to things because I know that we, as players, will always find workarounds, but I do wish in many cases - like your example with equipping Enemy Radar - that they would actually allow more MODs to add Synergy to abilities.

 

If you are running your own Enemy Radar, you are not equipping Energy Syphon, so why not allow an ability that needs LOS, to at least hit what is on the Radar?

 

As much as I like the game, I find these "oversights" extremely frustrating.

[Tsukinoki]

LOS is a large nerf.
Especially with how broken it currently is.

I've run a few tests with Excalibur and Trinity and here is what I found:
In one case as Excalibur I jumped into the middle of a room of enemies with minimal cover and cast RB.  It was fairly effective and enemies dived behind what cover there was.  As I was going to cast RJ a butcher ran up behind me and started hitting the back of my head.  I cast RJ and he was completely unaffected because apparently Excalibur hadn't seen him when jumping into the middle of the room.
So the "Radial" part of Radial Javelin is a complete lie as enemies can come through a closed door right behind Excalibur and start shooting you in the back and it wont hit them as he hasn't 'seen' them, which actually got me downed because of the ridiculous 2.5 second "Swing my sword around" pose.

I noticed a similar thing when casting EV as well:
If you see the target, or it sees you, it'll "remember" you for 5 seconds, during which time the pulses will restore the energy even if you break LoS.
But if you cast it and move past it then backpeddle without turning around because your busy shooting at things, you can rub your back right up against the target and not get any energy restored if you're back to back and neither of you have looked at each other.

And then there is the current state of Shield Polarize where it wont affect yourself, as you can't see yourself, and it won't affect allies in cover either (which is far too big of a nerf for that ability).

I'm going to test Shield Polarize more, where what happens if allies are within range with nothing between them but cant see each other as they are looking away and see if it works on them at that point.

But what I've found is that the only way currently to be able to use RJ is to constantly be spinning 360 degrees so that Excalibur can see the enemies behind him.
Otherwise it doesn't matter if there is nothing between you and enemies, if you haven't actually seen them they can be shooting you and your LOS abilities wont target them.