Radial Blind Tweaks

[Renegade343]

Hello all,

 

This thread will be talking about a tweak to Radial Blind, so that it becomes less of a shadow than its former one (but not reverting). The content is below: 

 

Sometime in U14, DE(L) has changed Radial Blind so that it affects only enemies in line of sight (or LOS). While this is a logical change (as blinding full rooms with a measly 50 energy cost is a bit too much), the way that it is executed is a bit heavy-handed, and does make Radial Blind be a bit useless at times. While the original one is too powerful, the changed one is a bit too weak to be used effectively. 

 

Thus, the suggestion is to have Radial Blind have this: 

 

Light from Excalibur has 0.2/0.4/0.6/0.8m Punch Through. 

 

How it works is shown below: 

 

 

With this tweak, this would allow Radial Blind to be more powerful in terms of its utility, while making sure that it is not too powerful (i.e.: Balanced). 

 

Please take the time to read this thread, and provide constructive criticism and feedback.

 

Renegade343

[BoneBreakerx]

finally someone who is not just whining... i think that a great idea +1

[Rorgal_Sina]

I don't think "Line of Sight" is the problem. I would appreciate a casting speed buff and unlimited range though.

[MichaelSD]

Think high level. Until level 30 nearly all power work alright to great. If you have an enemy behind cover, it will one shot you the moment you deal with the other enemies, or you have to reapply RB. Which is ironic, because the very reason for los was the RB is spawned too often. With the "fix" I have to spawn it even more often..

[Renegade343]

I don't think "Line of Sight" is the problem. I would appreciate a casting speed buff and unlimited range though.

Line of Sight is one of the major problems. 

 

And its casting speed is alright, to be honest. 

 

Think high level. Until level 30 nearly all power work alright to great. If you have an enemy behind cover, it will one shot you the moment you deal with the other enemies, or you have to reapply RB. Which is ironic, because the very reason for los was the RB is spawned too often. With the "fix" I have to spawn it even more often..

Was this statement with regards to the Radial Blind now, or the proposed suggestion above?

[MichaelSD]

Line of Sight is one of the major problems. 

 

And its casting speed is alright, to be honest. 

 

Was this statement with regards to the Radial Blind now, or the proposed suggestion above?

 

Statement RB now: RB was alright before the nerf. They could reduced many things, like making loud weapons decrease the blindness modifier to the enemy, range, duration, etc. The LOS mechanic was a bad idea.

 

Statement RB suggestion: it still makes RB not useful at high level.

 

Suggestion: revert RB to original state and make it the ultimate for Excalibur.

[Renegade343]

Suggestion: revert RB to original state and make it the ultimate for Excalibur.

You are kidding, right?

 

Why would you want an ability that basically means, "I win."?

 

At least with the suggestion, it still can blind some enemies behind cover, but not to the point where it can blind one (or two) rooms ahead. 

[MichaelSD]

Stomp means win. Molecular Prime means win. Myasma means win. Hysteria means win. Etc, etc.

Radial Blind gave 4-5 seconds of blindness, it was not OP, not more than rest of the frames. At least with the old RB I could contribute to the team and go on high level missions. Now, and with the suggestion, the Calis are just a liability to the group.

Edited November 13, 2014 by MichaelSD

[Renegade343]

Stomp means win. Molecular Prime means win. Contagion mean win. Hysteria means win. Etc, etc.

Radial Blind gave 4-5 seconds of blindness, it was not OP, not more than rest of the frames. At least with the old RB I could contribute to the team and go on high level missions. Now, and with the suggestion, the Calis are just a liability to the group.

Contagion requires a melee weapon, for one, as well as enough Power Strength to make it rather useful.

 

Molecular Prime now travels out in a wave (instead of instant application), so that is less 'win' than before. 

 

Hysteria does restrict one to melee. 

 

Stomp, fine. 

 

But for a 50 energy ability that can be modded to blind three rooms at once is a bit too much. 

[MichaelSD]

I meant Myasma, sorry.

MP is still win. It makes the enemy one shot, at it even scales on higher levels very well.

Melee is not disadvantage, many Excalibur users used RB with melee weapon.

But nearly, any frame has a win button, that is the nature of the beast.

 

Considering that Excaliburs only useful ability was RB, it is a fair trade off. But nerf range then, would that not be easier?

Edited November 13, 2014 by MichaelSD

[Renegade343]

Considering that Excaliburs only useful ability was RB, it is a fair trade off. But nerf range than, would that not be easier?

Then what is the point of Radial Blind, if it cannot blind a small room with a decreased range?

 

Radial Blind is his defensive skill, but that does not mean it should be making the game easy with it. While there can be those 'wipe the room' powers, having it set to a 2 ability is too much. I made the light have Punch Through so that it would be useful in a room, when it is needed to take off the heat but having it blind the next two rooms is not. 

[MichaelSD]

I have a reliable power on short range (I use a small room) than an unreliable over a large area.

 

It does not wipe, does not even damage! After five seconds, they even fire at your if you use loud weapons.

It is not a defensive skill. If it is, it is badly designed. It was the only offensive skill worth using in team and on high levels. Your changes, while admirable, do solve this problem.

[Renegade343]

I have a reliable power on short range (I use a small room) than an unreliable over a large area.

I will have to disagree no matter what for this one. With the tweak, it will be more reliable over a large area (in fact, it would pierce through most cover), but would not go off to blind the next few rooms.  

 

It does not wipe, does not even damage! After five seconds, they even fire at your if you use loud weapons.

You effectively make them unable to see. I think that is already quite something. 

 

And if you are firing away, then get killed by blind enemies, I think the problem would be your play-style, not the Radial Blind. 

 

It is not a defensive skill. If it is, it is badly designed. It was the only offensive skill worth using in team and on high levels. Your changes, while admirable, do solve this problem.

And how is blinding enemies not a defensive skill?

[MichaelSD]

Depth is not reliable enough as a measurement of efficiency. What about a container and other items, which is more than 0,6 meters?

 

I did not say, I am firing way. I said the only value RB gave was 5 seconds. Compared to other powers, it is not much.

 

Define defensive than, because SD and RJ is unusable at high level. Super Jump is...well SJ.

[Renegade343]

Depth is not reliable enough as a measurement of efficiency. What about a container and other items, which is more than 0,6 meters?

All containers are of length around 0.3 - 0.5m (and I did measure them myself). 

 

And at Max Rank, light will have 0.8m Punch Through, and that is quite enough to pierce through a good selection of cover. 

 

I did not say, I am firing way. I said the only value RB gave was 5 seconds. Compared to other powers, it is not much.

Are you sure you played Excalibur correctly? 

 

Without mods and at Max Rank, Radial Blind will blind enemies for 15 seconds. That is quite a lot of time for you to wipe out the blinded enemies. 

 

Define defensive than, because SD and RJ is unusable at high level. Super Jump is...well SJ.

Defensive: Powers that give you more survivability, typically without damaging anyone. 

[MichaelSD]

We can agree to disagree.:)

 

I mean the large orange containers, not the cube containers. Those are larger than 0,8 meters. But the containers are just an example. Corridors are problem too.

 

15s is the blind, which is far less useful as it seems, because noise and proximity nullifies it. The stun is useful, which is around for 5 seconds and is not affected by mods. The blind is secondary. If you want to nerf RB to to a purely defensive power omit the stun part and just blind them.

 

Survivability is a very broad definition. I would say Blind is a utility power. Rhino's Iron Skin is a defensive power. But definitions are not so important.

[Renegade343]

I mean the large orange containers, not the cube containers. Those are larger than 0,8 meters. But the containers are just an example. Corridors are problem too.

They should be able to be blinded. I mean, the example is if the Excalibur is right in front of the box. If he were onto the side at an angle, then it would still blind him (i.e.: Using Pythagoras's Theorem and vectors). That also means corridors are not a problem now. 

 

15s is the blind, which is far less useful as it seems, because noise and proximity nullifies it. The stun is useful, which is around for 5 seconds and is not affected by mods. The blind is secondary. If you want to nerf RB to to a purely defensive power omit the stun part and just blind them.

I use Excalibur, and I would say that the blind is pretty useful for messing with enemies. 

[shut]

I like this suggestion. Perhaps allow it to scale with STR, so players who want to build for maximum room-blinding will reap some benefits for SD, SJ and Javelin as well?

 

I think it would also be pretty cool to allow the Blinding line of sight to reflect off glossy surfaces, but that might be hard to implement. XD

 

EDIT:

 

15s is the blind, which is far less useful as it seems, because noise and proximity nullifies it.

 

Try building your weapons for Blind, then? There are ways of working around the whole noise issue without sacrificing anything significant.

I'd much rather sacrifice a bit of damage by putting Hush on my weapon than nullify two thirds of Blind's usefulness by putting an extra element on it instead. It's not like every single mod on my weapon has to be built for damage in order for my weapon to get the job done (Snipers aside).

Edited November 14, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Renegade343]

I like this suggestion. Perhaps allow it to scale with STR, so players who want to build for maximum room-blinding will reap some benefits for SD, SJ and Javelin as well?

I am conflicted by this suggestion. 

 

On one hand, it does make sense (intensity of light being larger = more being able to pierce through this), but on the other hand, it kind of makes Excalibur a bit bland that way. As much as I want it, I believe having drawbacks for building towards one power aspects makes a Warframe fun. 

[shut]

I am conflicted by this suggestion. 

 

On one hand, it does make sense (intensity of light being larger = more being able to pierce through this), but on the other hand, it kind of makes Excalibur a bit bland that way. As much as I want it, I believe having drawbacks for building towards one power aspects makes a Warframe fun. 

 

Yeah, good point. XD

[(PSN)Onder6099]

I like this suggestion. Perhaps allow it to scale with STR, so players who want to build for maximum room-blinding will reap some benefits for SD, SJ and Javelin as well?

I think it would also be pretty cool to allow the Blinding line of sight to reflect off glossy surfaces, but that might be hard to implement. XD

EDIT:

Try building your weapons for Blind, then? There are ways of working around the whole noise issue without sacrificing anything significant.

I'd much rather sacrifice a bit of damage by putting Hush on my weapon than nullify two thirds of Blind's usefulness by putting an extra element on it instead. It's not like every single mod on my weapon has to be built for damage in order for my weapon to get the job done (Snipers aside).

You can ´t sacrifice anything, just make strong melee build and switch to melee mode after RB cast, becouse RB gives you 400x more damage for first hit, without touching enemy, long melees recomended, enought to cast multiplier. But don ´t forget on Sentinel, to be completly silent you are able equip only Deconstructor or Stinger, or put Hush there. That ´s 2nd greatest mistake about RB.

Sorry for bad English.

Edited November 14, 2014 by (PS4)Onder6099

[Renegade343]

You can ´t sacrifice anything, just make strong melee build and switch to melee mode after RB cast, becouse RB gives you 400x more damage for first hit, without touching enemy, long melees recomended, enought to cast multiplier. But don ´t forget on Sentinel, to be completly silent you are able equip only Deconstructor or Stinger, or put Hush there. That ´s 2nd greatest mistake about RB.

Sorry for bad English.

Then again, to some players, equipping Hush on a gun feels like making the weapon less worthy. 

[DSpite]

I don't understand why Radial Blind is not set up to act like a Flashbang.

 

Make it far more effective at close ranges, and step it back as you go out. If I set it off point blank on things, I want them heavily effected, with things on the edge of Range just getting reduced effects.

 

Stun, stagger, blindness and silence effects Point blank, with just a shorter blindness effect at long ranges.

 

If this was in effect NOW, since Excalibut is meant to be "The Swordman", he could go nuts in melee, with a small protection from being focused fired from long range, and he can deal with what's around him better. Super Jump into the next group, RB, deal with those.

 

Repetitive? I can think of a LOT of more boring repetitive Ability chains people do already. I would actually enjoy THIS one.

Edited November 14, 2014 by DSpite

[Renegade343]

Stun, stagger, blindness and silence effects Point blank, with just a shorter blindness effect at long ranges.

Not silence. Then, we start overlapping with Banshee. 

 

Besides, if you are going into melee (which I guess you would with Excalibur and Radial Blind), why would you need the silence effect?

 

If this was in effect NOW, since Excalibut is meant to be "The Swordman", he could go nuts in melee, with a small protection from being focused fired from long range, and he can deal with what's around him better. Super Jump into the next group, RB, deal with those.

He can still 'go nuts' in melee with the tweak. After all, the Punch Through for this is based on displacement calculation (i.e.: Checking the smallest distance between Excalibur and the enemy, then run the light Punch Through mechanic if there is cover between the enemy and Excalibur). That way, it would allow enemies to still be blinded behind a wide selection of cover. 

[DSpite]

I typed Silence instead of "deafness" because we don't have deafness effects but we have Silence effects which should be similar.

 

No I can't go "nuts" in melee, because right now just walking up to them cancels ALL melee multipliers for anything nearby. I might as well throw a Glaive and explode it to do a high melee multiplier, large AoE like I already do anyway.

 

It would make more sense that the power had an epicenter, and the effects be more powerful there, to allow melee to be more effective in some way. If I go to the trouble to jump in the middle of bad guys to set off a RB, I would want it to more useful.

 

I'm sorry, but since we are just talking "ideas" and not "implementation", I just dislike your idea of just slightly "un-nerfing" the ability to get it to a middle point of the extremes it has been in the past. If I had a choice at all, I would want to make the damn ability more interesting, and my idea has a lot of give and take on effects and distances to allow "balances", while yours is just to make it another boring, bland tweak to the old vanilla radius effect.

 

You are the one that always comes up with the whackiest ideas for things, and this one time that I actually have a decent grasp of the ability being discussed, you kind of made it rather dull, probably to find a middle way out of what is happening. Middle way be damned.

 

I never liked the way the ability worked before simply because it was boring. Effective yes, but boring.