De Doesn't Understand Viver

[RiouHotaru]

Your assumption, maybe... because the devs have taken action, one that is in fact noted in the OP, and one which misses the point completely, which is half of the reason this thread exists.

 

The devs took action by removing and altering exploitive behavior taking advantage of a system that was never meant to be used in that fashion in the first place.  OP does point out the fact you have to earn a rather ridiculous amount of affinity/reputation, and I agree, but it doesn't mean DE isn't probably working on something for that.

 

Doesn't excuse or handwave away what happened at Viver, though.  Even assuming the Reputation problem wasn't present, people were still using Viver to farm affinity and mods at a ridiculous rate, which was clearly not an intention.  Closing the loophole on Interception missions makes sense to prevent excessive and exploitative farming.

[Ethice]

Seeing the numbers on paper has shown how unbalanced the whole Syndicate / Standing system is. A friend of mine brought up a possible solution to tie standing into mastery rank. The higher your mastery rank the better your standing to affinity ratio would be. This would give newer players another reason to progress through the mastery ranks as well as allow older players to progress through the Syndicate system at a more desirable pace.

[Hybridon]

Seeing the numbers on paper has shown how unbalanced the whole Syndicate / Standing system is. A friend of mine brought up a possible solution to tie standing into mastery rank. The higher your mastery rank the better your standing to affinity ratio would be. This would give newer players another reason to progress through the mastery ranks as well as allow older players to progress through the Syndicate system at a more desirable pace.

 

Naaaah, better nerf Trinity. /sarcasm

Edited November 13, 2014 by Hybridon

[Arkhenbarn]

I... love... that post ! Much more constructive than anything we've seen so far since the release of the update.

 

I don't think to be mistaking saying it's probably the worst hotfix ever, and I've been playing since update 7-8. Moreover, these nerfs solved NOTHING. Viver is still the best place for farming rep (but shh !). I did one round to see how much it changed, got 376 points for rep, which looks like it is exactly like before the update.

 

Solved issues : 0, created issues : many.

 

But I think I didn't need to tell that, if you've already read Rydian's arguments ^^ .

Edited November 13, 2014 by Yesardrahin

[Marthrym]

Very impressive (and scary) post OP.

And to think I didn't do a single Viver run... Can't imagine how long it would take me.^^'

[Zeritol]

Very nice work Rydian. I appreciate you taking the time to do your feedback in this way. Those graphs speak for themselves.

[rafacasper]

Some quick math support for your theory:

As an example Sechura - Pluto, last planet -  30 waves are around 30 min and give 1.5k, you can get 3k per hour. For someone to get to 77k, around 25 hours.

2 weeks with an average 2 hours per day only doing high level specific Defenses/Survivals/Interceptions. No alerts, no farming on other game types, no Archwing. Than you get the Rank. You can do other missions, of course, but will take some more time to reach the Syndicate XP required for the buying.

Each card costs 25k. Than, using the math up, 1 week per card. Only doing high level specific Defenses/Survivals/Interceptions

You need 99k to max out rank 4. And 137k to max rank 5. And 250k if you want all weapon/frame mods from 1 Syndicate (575k for all frame augments, 450k for all weapon augments).

3k per hour, 900k for all faction mods, 300 gaming hours for all things from faction, running only high level specific Defenses/Survivals/Interceptions.

Personally, I have played warframe for one year, I have 500 gaming hours

Edited November 13, 2014 by rafacasper

[elixze]

Changes need to happen. DE cannot expect us to grind endlessly for this. I cannot Call myself a veteran now, but they are already done With most Things. And they do not spend much time on the game anymore, they'd rather farmn for 15-20 or so min to get around 3k standing then do endless survival to not even get Close to 3k.

 

I do not have the time myself to play warframe all the time, I doubt I can even finish a single syndicate within even 4 months, I simply do not have the time for this.

 

I can understand interception is changed to prevent effective farming in viver for rep, but changing the frames for this sake, was bti too much. But then again, syndicate is still in it's beta features as it seems. rather have it disabled for couple of weeks and revert all changes to a solutionis made.

 

Try putting some of those solutions Rydian Mentioned.

[nemarsde]

I'm confused by all of this.

 

DE releases Syndicate goals that explicitly require grinding for a player to ever see.

 

So players go out and grind.

 

Then DE prevents the grinding, but doesn't change the necessity to grind for Syndicate goals.

 

Yet if playing casual, a player simply won't attain the goals. It'd take them years, potentially.

 

Sooo, are Syndicates a non-feature? Content that players are never meant to see?

 

Because the message seems to be:

 

You must grind for this.

But you must not grind.

[TwiceDead]

We hoped at some point in time DE would actually introduce a goal worth fighting for, and all of the broken abilities and weapons would simply trivialize it and turn it into a grind fest, or a gear-check that required a specific frame/weapon loadout.

 

Fundamentals are so broken at this point in time that I don't even know what to suggest.

 

I want to say more about this, but I really got nothing to add. QFT. . . 

[melandor0]

10/10 post OP. I really hope DE sees this.

[Voaster]

 

[Nayroy]

wow I only post to sell stuff, but this post is just too wow.

[KyubiBlaze]

Best one till now , right in the face DE , this guy used much better brains that you guys just did , just put a cap of like 5k you can earn rep in any mission , why nerf already too stupid warframes to use , they already die too fast , and you made it much easier for enemies to kill those frames just now, and the interception mission -_- wow you guys just screwed in the best possible way

[Glitchesarecool]

 

Well fsking done OP. This is amazing. Your second graph terrifies me.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Glitchesarecool

[kithsakhai]

+1

 

Well put together man, and i entirely agree a solution to the crazy viver farming was needed, and a solution to the massive farm-frame attitude this goal presents, but what was NOT needed was to completely GUT the usefulness of three entire frames in the process.

Edited November 13, 2014 by kithsakhai

[(PSN)BlacksmithUSA]

I'd like to thank you for this post. A lot of the backlash about this was incoherent whining, this is a well structured argument with empirical data to boot. Thanks for being sensible and still proving your point. If the devs don't listen to this, they won't listen to anything.

[CF_HoneyBadger]

This is amazing, well worded, and well researched. Kudos to you, sir. 

 

This explains the issues with the Syndicates so much better than I could have. 

 

Thanks.

[(PSN)ELIT3_EXP3RT-01]

TC why haven't I heard or seen you before? This is a well informed written statement that DE should consider reading about this Viver situation.  

 

Wanted to highlight this:

 

This was the reason forum-balancers spent the past 1.5 years ranting about balance, nerf spam, OP weapons etc.

 

We hoped at some point in time DE would actually introduce a goal worth fighting for, and all of the broken abilities and weapons would simply trivialize it and turn it into a grind fest, or a gear-check that required a specific frame/weapon loadout.

 

Fundamentals are so broken at this point in time that I don't even know what to suggest.

 

After this Viver exploit and DE's actions to fix the problem, its now worse and I feel raged, angry and no longer see Warframe as fun as it was. Even when I play it... Taken into the consideration as I just took a 2 month hiatus from PC and PS4 versions, I shall remain optimistic to see where this game leads into the future. I as well dont know what should be done anymore(as of this post).

 

It's a germ of a nucleus of an unformed idea..

 

Perhaps Mastery Rank applied as bonus to gross % of rep gained.

 

I like this as it benefits and rewards us as a longtime player and provides incentive to play even as a Veteran, who has provided necessary feedback, grind and game time to understand this 'endgame content' and not just another feature implemented poorly ... Which doesn't provide any incentive yet... Ill still be waiting.. And waiting... Until this happens.

 

EDIT 1: Grammar, sentence structure, Punctuation corrections.

Edited November 13, 2014 by (PS4)ELIT3_EXP3RT-01

[bownt]

Too logical

 

Shut it down

[EvilMind]

- Possible Solutions

- Greatly lower the standing needed for ranks and rewards. This will bring the target in line with other game systems and help prevent such absurd farms from being seen as needed in the first place.

- Place an upper cap on the Standing gained per mission, perhaps 15 Warframe ranks worth (30 seems like a more uniform suggestion, but would still encourage longer, lazier missions(. This will make it so that no such farms will be nearly effective as they were regardless of mission or frame combinations, and this change will not require negatively impacting Warframes and abilities for other scenarios.

- Tie Standing gain into more static values, such as the mission's difficulty (like credit rewards). This is a more strict/simple version of the above solution, with the same goal.

You hit the nail on the head that DE is treating symptoms and not the disease. Your possible solutions are good but there can be issues with those too. If rep was tied to mission difficulty then people would go out of their way to credit farm instead of xp farm as they do now at Viver. Instead of LF Viver farm it would become LF T4 cap farm and LF Sechura farm. If DE wants lots of missions instead of long missions then it's not a problem at all. If it's not what they want then it changes one problem for another. Nerfs would be incoming for Volt speed to slow down capture missions for example.

DE has to decide what they want to accomplish with Syndicates as a meta game. Given that DE has repeatedly said that they want Syndicates to be a long slow thing that happens over a course of weeks/months then that's what they have to do - link the rep gain formula to real world time. For example DE could cap the syndicate rep players can gain per day. Obviously they'd also need to re-tune the rate gains per xp and/or the costs of ranks and mods.

Note that I'm not advocating this solution specifically. I'm just saying that DE has stated what they want for Syndicates then used a game mechanic formula that ensures that they will =not= get what they want. Then punishing players for following the formula they made and not the one they dreamed about. That's the true problem and what needs to change. DE has to put their desires into the rep gain formula. Work backwards from what they want and come up with a formula that works.

[Zagrax]

This post is fantastic. +1 for you op.

[--Q--Unit-03]

Just a few days ago I had a similar discussion with friends, not as well structured and without all the math behind it as the OP's, but still, same points.

I made a joke then; "I bet DE is just going to nerf all Warframes involved!". We all laughed, it was funny.

This shows how little did we know, and how much more did we expect from DE. If someone was to tell me that this would be exactly what DE is going to do, I would've thought I am being trolled.

Thank you Rydian for doing all the work!

DE, please read, a reply would be awesome too.

[S1L3NT_W0LF]

They way they are handling this game.. It's turning into a big joke. Soon they'll reveal that all the Tenno are not actually ancient space clowns and then all of the powers will do ''fun'' damage to the enemies and tickle them to death.

I'll prolly have to get my clan to change it's name to Clown Kingdumb too.. :/

[Mesyra]

This.

THIS is how you make feedback.

 

Thank you.