The Lotus Is Angry With Us

[elele]

Because it is unfair to people who don't equip weapons, obviously. 

Lol there are people who don't equip weapons? What do they use to kill those grineers? Harsh words? 

 

Edited November 13, 2014 by elele

[Archistopheles]

I am definitely in favor of lore-based reasons for changes and nerfs. Would be fun.

[Brimir]

Lol there are people who don't equip weapons? What do they use to kill those grineers? Harsh words? 

 

 

They don't have to unequip all weapons; just one. Or two.

 

A Tenno using only his melee weapon gives a Tenno using a Primary, Secondary and Melee an unfair advantage and said Tenno uses - by your definition - an exploit to kill his enemies.

 

Your argument is bad and you should feel bad.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Brimir

[elele]

A Tenno using only his melee weapon gives a Tenno using a Primary, Secondary and Melee an unfair advantage and said Tenno uses - by your definition - an exploit to kill his enemies.

 

Yeah because you equip ONLY MELEE as your regular way of playing the game. Again, I'm sure you just use your awesome staring power to kill those grineer energy-depletion door traps. 

 

While you're at it, why not just unequip all your mods and bang your head against lvl50 heavy gunners? 

 

One player doing dumb things give another player who does normal things an "unfair" advantage. Sounds legit. 

Edited November 13, 2014 by elele

[Brimir]

Yeah because you equip ONLY MELEE as your regular way of playing the game. 

 

While you're at it, why not just unequip all your mods and bang your head against lvl50 heavy gunners? 

 

One player doing dumb things give another player who does normal things an "unfair" advantage. Sounds legit. 

 

 

Why do I even try and argue against you when you blow your arguments better than I ever could?

 

That people choose to not run Viver in a optimal group does not make the people who do exploiters! Just like how people who chose to do melee-only runs do not make people who run with Primaries and Secondaries exploiters.

[Azawarau]

 1st of all it wasnt exploit it was a game mode on small map thats all and DE wants too make "end game" in a game that doesnt need it.

If it wasnt an exploit then why was it fixed?

[SquirmyBurrito]

 

2ex·ploit

 verb \ik-ˈsplȯit, ˈek-ˌ\

: to get value or use from (something)

: to use (someone or something) in a way that helps you unfairly

 

 

So yes I got value from Viver. I used it in a way that helped me unfairly (i.e. it's "unfair" to frames other than Mag/Excaliber/Trinity because they can't, urr, "utilize" Viver). 

 

You missed the "unfairly" part. Otherwise please enlighten me, how did you use Mk1-Braton, one of your any wepons, in an unfair manner?

 

There is/was nothing unfair about using the old Viver-trio to farm. You should have went one step further and also looked up the definition of unfair. As others have pointed out, Mag, Excal, and Trin aren't the only frames that can be used to farm Viver. And on the second quote: That's the f'ing point. Here I'll reword your question "...how did you use Mag/Trinity/Excalibur, one of your any wepons, in an unfair manner?" There is nothing unfair about using those three frames pre-nerf. Your argument is hilariously terrible.

 

If it wasnt an exploit then why was it fixed?

 

Not everything that gets 'fixed' is an exploit. Also, they didn't 'fix' anything. Viver still lives. All they did was nerf three frames. Your argument is invalid.

[Archistopheles]

If it wasnt an exploit then why was it fixed?

An action video game usually wants to promote active play. The meta strat in Viver promoted passive play. We weren't using bugs or glitches, we just found a way to maximize abilities.

[Azawarau]

Not everything that gets 'fixed' is an exploit. Also, they didn't 'fix' anything. Viver still lives. All they did was nerf three frames. Your argument is invalid.

That doesnt mean it wasnt either

 

The devs also have had a habit of leaving issues untouched for far too long (QT,Reflection in pvp,ect)

 

Mags polarize has been doing this forever

 

Radial blind had as well

 

Im honestly surprised they acted so quickly this time

 

An action video game usually wants to promote active play. The meta strat in Viver promoted passive play. We weren't using bugs or glitches, we just found a way to maximize abilities.

I suppose old blessing was the same?

[SquirmyBurrito]

That doesnt mean it wasnt either

 

The devs also have had a habit of leaving issues untouched for far too long (QT,Reflection in pvp,ect)

 

Mags polarize has been doing this forever

 

Radial blind had as well

 

Im honestly surprised they acted so quickly this time

 

I suppose old blessing was the same?

 

It wasn't an exploit in the 'unfair' sense of the word.

 

I don't see how that's relevant.

 

Mag's Shield Polarize should have continued to do that. Magnets don't cease to work just because you can't see it.

 

Radial Blind having a LoS restriction makes sense. It is a clear exception.

 

They acted too quickly.

 

Old Blessing was clearly unbalanced and was one of the last remnants of the invulnerability age. I think Volt is the last one.

Edit: Nope, just remembered Valkyr and Limbo.

Edited November 13, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[Azawarau]

It wasn't an exploit in the 'unfair' sense of the word.

 

I don't see how that's relevant.

 

Mag's Shield Polarize should have continued to do that. Magnets don't cease to work just because you can't see it.

 

Radial Blind having a LoS restriction makes sense. It is a clear exception.

 

They acted too quickly.

 

Old Blessing was clearly unbalanced and was one of the last remnants of the invulnerability age. I think Volt is the last one.

Edit: Nope, just remembered Valkyr and Limbo.

Its a point where game mechanics take over where logic causes trouble

 

Mags polarize trivializes corpus and nearly does the same to corrupted and easily

 

Radial blind is already fairly weak though certainly better than before

 

The issue isnt what makes sense

 

Its what can,has been, and will be abused and how can that be prevented

[Brimir]

 

Mags polarize trivializes corpus and nearly does the same to corrupted and easily

 

Radial blind is already fairly weak though certainly better than before

 

Neither of which comes close to categorize them as "exploits".

 

People really need to learn what an exploit is when talking about vidja gajms.

[SquirmyBurrito]

Its a point where game mechanics take over where logic causes trouble

 

Mags polarize trivializes corpus and nearly does the same to corrupted and easily

 

Radial blind is already fairly weak though certainly better than before

 

The issue isnt what makes sense

 

Its what can,has been, and will be abused and how can that be prevented

 

Neither were causing trouble.

 

Shield Polarize is an amazingly good ability, and was one of her only good abilities. It trivialized them purely because of how good it was. With the LoS change comes the neutering of her endgame potential.

 

Why are you still discussing Radial Blind? It was Radial Javelin that was neutered in this update. Radial Blind was several updates/hotfixes ago.

 

Yes it is. The recent LoS changes neither make sense from a realism perspective nor from a general game consistency/rule standpoint. LoS requirements on AoE abilities are incredibly inconsistent. 

 

Nothing was being abused. What the hell is it with this forum and people not being able to properly utilize the English language when conversing in English? You're two letters away from the proper word. You should have used the term 'used'. And nothing should be prevented. If the act of just USING shield polarize/Energy Vampire/Radial Javelin was so unbalanced that it required a LoS change, DE should have dialed them back on one of their existing stats. Not totally gimped them. Given them less range, less power, more energy cost, whatever, but don't kill them off. Radial Javelin was no worse than any other AoE spammable damage ult. Shield Polarize had great scaling and DE could have EASILY tweaked that. EV was perfectly fine.

[Archistopheles]

I suppose old blessing was the same?

Sorta. It would be most similar to Snowglobe. DE_Scott quoted during a livestream "press 3, then go make a sandwich."

[elele]

Why do I even try and argue against you when you blow your arguments better than I ever could?

 

That people choose to not run Viver in a optimal group does not make the people who do exploiters! Just like how people who chose to do melee-only runs do not make people who run with Primaries and Secondaries exploiters.

 

Equating "people who choose to not run Viver in an optimal group" (I even fixed grammar for you lol) to "people deliberately doing dumb things, e.g. equipping only one melee", in your pathetic argument. 

 

Let me make it clear to you, in case you have problem understanding: 

 

People who choose to run Viver with super-optimized build that can be played with Homer's Drinking Bird (quoting DE_Steve here) is enjoying an UNFAIR advantage over people who run Viver with bad (or sub-optimal, or whatever) build setups (i.e. anything other than Mag/Ex/Trin). 

 

People who properly use primary Mk1-Braton, secondary and melee is NOT having an UNFAIR advantage over (dumb) people who run with ONLY MELEE.

 

And no, contrary to your failed attempt to understand "my reasoning", the above is "my reasoning". And it does NOT mean "by that reasoning we are all exploiting guns when we kill an enemy with them", as you have somehow interpreted.

 

I hope this clears up things for you. And please, feel free to feel bad about yourself. 

 

Man why I even bother arguing with you. 

Edited November 14, 2014 by elele

[elele]

Neither of which comes close to categorize them as "exploits".

 

People really need to learn what an exploit is when talking about vidja gajms.

 

Unless you're the inventor of this Mag/Exca/Trin tactic (in that case I applaud your ability of meta-min/maxing), you need to learn playing games in ways other than (a) watching a tutorial youtube vidya, (b) learning to afk-Macro, and ( c) somehow thinking you're not exploiting.

Edited November 14, 2014 by elele

[elele]

There is/was nothing unfair about using the old Viver-trio to farm. You should have went one step further and also looked up the definition of unfair. As others have pointed out, Mag, Excal, and Trin aren't the only frames that can be used to farm Viver. And on the second quote: That's the f'ing point. Here I'll reword your question "...how did you use Mag/Trinity/Excalibur, one of your any wepons, in an unfair manner?" There is nothing unfair about using those three frames pre-nerf. Your argument is hilariously terrible.

 

Oh yeah? Nothing unfair you say? What's next? Chinese gold farmer in WoW is doing a fair business? XP boosting in CoD/BF3 is fair practice? 

 

Just because you say "there is nothing unfair about using those three" doesn't make it fair. The fact is, the game is not designed to be played this way. This play style is bad for the game's economy, bad for new player's experience (what would new player think when they hear that what the endgame pros do is basically afk-macroing 2 and 4?), bad for other players who want to play the game in the proper manner, bad for DE's effort in designing the Daily Syndicate mission system, bad for other maps (5k standing for 5 T4 keys, really?! Why would anyone play any other Interception missions for T4 key drops?).

 

If you recognize all the bad associated with this specific way of farming, and you still think it's not "unfair", then I lament your intelligence.

[SquirmyBurrito]

 

Equating "people who choose to not run Viver in an optimal group" (I even fixed grammar for you lol) to "people deliberately doing dumb things, e.g. equipping only one melee", in your pathetic argument. 

 

Let me make it clear to you, in case you have problem understanding: 

 

People who choose to run Viver with super-optimized build that can be played with Homer's Drinking Bird (quoting DE_Steve here) is enjoying an UNFAIR advantage over people who run Viver with bad (or sub-optimal, or whatever) build setups (i.e. anything other than Mag/Ex/Trin). 

 

People who properly use primary Mk1-Braton, secondary and melee is NOT having an UNFAIR advantage over (dumb) people who run with ONLY MELEE.

 

And no, contrary to your failed attempt to understand "my reasoning", the above is "my reasoning". And it does NOT mean "by that reasoning we are all exploiting guns when we kill an enemy with them", as you have somehow interpreted.

 

I hope this clears up things for you. And please, feel free to feel bad about yourself. 

 

Man why I even bother arguing with you. 

 

 

Going melee only isn't dumb. I'm channeling my inner child with this: Your argument is the one that is pathetic.

 

No, let me make it clear to YOU as you're the one with the issues.

 

That is completely irrelevant to the main issue people had with your OP. You used the word exploit and then went on to claim that the act of super-farming Viver was unfair when it wasn't. There is no unfair advantage as how fast I gain rep DOESN'T AFFECT YOU AT ALL. Boo hoo, you don't have the standing I do, oh well. 

 

Using your crazy reasoning, yes they are. They can do things that people with only a melee weapon can not. So (again, using your crazy reasoning) the people with their Mk1-Braton have an unfair advantage over the melee only players. Same could be said for players using frames that have damage abilities while Loki players (in non-infested missions) are left without damage abilities.

 

Yes, it does. You can try and cover it up all you want, but your reasoning is terribly flawed. 

 

I have no idea why you bother attempting to argue when you are clearly so inept a debater. You create this wacked out illogical argument, and then plug your metaphorical ears when someone takes your crazy argument and turns it against you to try and illustrate why it is bad.

 

Oh yeah? Nothing unfair you say? What's next? Chinese gold farmer in WoW is doing a fair business? XP boosting in CoD/BF3 is fair practice? 

 

Just because you say "there is nothing unfair about using those three" doesn't make it fair. The fact is, the game is not designed to be played this way. This play style is bad for the game's economy, bad for new player's experience (what would new player think when they hear that what the endgame pros do is basically afk-macroing 2 and 4?), bad for other players who want to play the game in the proper manner, bad for DE's effort in designing the Daily Syndicate mission system, bad for other maps (5k standing for 5 T4 keys, really?! Why would anyone play any other Interception missions for T4 key drops?).

 

If you recognize all the bad associated with this specific way of farming, and you still think it's not "unfair", then I lament your intelligence.

 

There is nothing unfair about it. You can try to strawman me all you want, that doesn't change it.

 

How is the game NOT designed to be played that way? All the mechanics and strategy used fit well within the constraints set by the developers. No game breaking occurred. How is it bad for the econ- actually, don't even bother answering that. That is completely irrelevant as the in-game economy should NEVER be given priority when it comes to game design and balancing. It isn't bad for the new player experience. What the hell are you smoking? I think new players would think exactly what those who WERE macro'ing were thinking 'wow this system is badly designed. DE needs to fix this so that I/they don't feel obligated to play this/that way'. Please explain how one group of players is somehow stopping another group of players from playing the way they want to (you make the mistake of assuming that the way YOU want to play is the proper way to play). The daily syndcate mission system was terribly designed to begin with once it became known that you could get far more rep by just playing other missions (you didn't even have to play super efficiently). You make the mistake of assuming that just because one thing is efficient, that means everyone will play it.

 

I have spent this entire time questioning your intelligence.

[elele]

Going melee only isn't dumb. 

 

I didn't even read all your babbling after this. Just one question: how you gonna hit those energy-absorption doors (or flying enemies) with your melee? I'm sure you'll just use your long argument to kill it, as ridiculous as your argument is. 

Edited November 14, 2014 by elele

[SquirmyBurrito]

I didn't even read all your babbling after this. Just one question: how you gonna hit those energy-absorption doors (or flying enemies) with your melee? I'm sure you'll just use your long argument to kill it, as ridiculous as your argument is. 

 

If you have no intention of reading my entire post, why even bother replying?

 

To answer your question, directional melee, wall attacks, and coptering all exist and can be used to hit those things. Maybe you should pay more attention to the contents of the various updates.

[DSpite]

Come on people, you are all dancing around the real reasons all these things happen.

 

Devs that make games will design a particular task or mission or event and think to themselves "the players will do A and B and C and will get D" and then what really happens is the players do "Z, and get D and E and F", after which the devs famepalms themselves, stare at each other for 10 minutes, and decide what they are going to do that can smooth things over without starting a crapstorm.

 

You all know that Viver was not intended to be used as it was. Sachura is not intended to be used as it is, and so on.

 

The fact that we do what we do does not change the simple truth that we spend most of out time gaming the mechanics to death. We all know that standing on a box 5 foot high and having monsters, that can in many maps, jump vertically 100 feet (because of hard coded pathing on those spots) suddenly lack even the simple ability to locate you on said 5 foot high boxes, is "exploiting" AI stupidity, and we justify this with "It's DE's fault for not making monsters or pathing more intelligent".

 

Well, congratulations. Viver "changes" are the result, because if DE is currently unable or unwilling to either modify AI or pathing behaviour or map structure, the only thing left is changing the way WE play. Is that fair? Well, as it's THEIR game, then yes. 

 

Thinking outside the "box" is one thing. Spending an entire hour long mission on top of that "box" invulnerable to attack is another. Something, eventually, has to give.

 

The only people complaining are those who lost the free flow of points. Those that never went to Viver to begin with don't care, and probably care little about the Syndicated mods as well. You managed to get tons of points? Congrats. Now move along.

[SquirmyBurrito]

The only people complaining are those who lost the free flow of points. Those that never went to Viver to begin with don't care, and probably care little about the Syndicated mods as well. You managed to get tons of points? Congrats. Now move along.

 

False. I complain and I hardly play the game anymore. I'm complaining because the viver hyper farming was not fixed with this problem. People just picked a new combination of frames. All they did was crap all over mag and excal players in some sort of kneejerk reaction. 

Edited November 14, 2014 by SquirmyBurrito

[MichaelSD]

False. I complain and I'm hardly play the game anymore. I'm complaining because the viver hyper farming was not fixed with this problem. People just picked a new combination of frames. All they did was crap all over mag and excal players in some sort of kneejerk reaction. 

 

This. I put wf also on hold and I definitely won't spend a dime on it, until I see where this whole mess is heading. I do not mind loosing Viver as easy rep source, but I do mind the rest of the changes.