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[DE]Steve

Vivergate: Vent Radioactive Gas Y/n

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An Idea.

 

But some reasoning first.

 

The main reason you can call upon Homer's bird playing the game here as to blame for the hideous changes you made to the game is due to a problem in timing, not a problem about overpowered skills.

 

Regardless of what method or strategy the Tenno used to wipe out the enemies at Viver, what really may have turned people to the use of macros (the bird) is that they managed to make each wave last for as long as they wanted, this made Viver easy.

 

Which meant that with little effort on that map, other than good positioning, some coordination and proper builds, the Tenno took advantage of a mechanic you designed to "delay" a mission's completion (to keep players playing).

 

This terrible solution you came up with did not address the delay mechanic in the slightest.

 

The key to encourage players to play more time should be based on rewards not on detriments. The perfect example is the way you designed Syndicates. Before Viver the concept of reaching rank five on a Syndicate was almost overwhelming, but there were rewards at the end of the road, worth it or not up to the player's opinion and choice.

 

Failing to understand this is key, which is why I'll reiterate it again: the problem was not the killing prowess of the Warframe's skills, or it's efficiency (alluding to Trinity obviously), it was the ability to choose the amount of time they were able to do it.

Sure there were people coming out of 40 minutes wave one sessions with twelve thousand standing, but they had to spend that ugly amount of time in there, and they were able to do so because of how the above mentioned delay mechanic was developed, given it really is a boring task, the bird came into play (macros).

 

And here's the Idea.

 

Upon learning of this issue, which could have been exploited for many other cases before Syndicates came upon us, here's what I would have done: after a certain kill count cap, start increasing the completion bar speed exponentially, for both sides.

 

No change required to Warframes, and just a bit of extra code to change a timer in the same way it changes the more capture points you or your enemy control.

 

This way people would still be able to enjoy their mass murdering super efficient builds, but the map would scale accordingly to that prowess on it's own, by increasing the level of the enemy after each (short) wave.

 

You counter balance the difficulty of the map itself, even while also adding an extra reward (faster rewards from interception reward tables) for players to feel encouraged to actually keep trying it out[*], and at the same time increasing the difficulty so that having a bird playing the game becomes not feasible and people can't just leave a macro running while AFK anymore, and have to make the hard choice between killing faster or surviving longer again, when building their Warframes.

 

 

[*] My reference is to trying out your "fix" alluding as how it was deployed, which translates into "players keep playing your game", which from what I've been reading and my own feeling right now, is something quite a few people don't feel like doing anymore.

 

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I still don't get what all our syndicate problem is... I'm already rank 3 and those remaining 2 wouldn't take that much longer... (I've maybe got 1/3 of max rank)

And I never played Viver the bad way, only normal to wave 4 as fast as possible to get some T4 keys^^ (besides other Interceptions)

I've also played Archwing.. and of course daily syndicate missions (but those should give more rep actually... and should be playable with friends again. Maybe give them less rep, but at least give them some)

 

That those Warframe nerfs are temporarily because fixing the abuse is a way longer task then that, was also clear to me... I also dislike those nerfs, but I know which players are responsible (and I wouldn't mind getting those banned for breaking the game and game economy..)

It killed my interest for this game a bit, seeing how afk-like one can play this game... I've once thought Orgis,Penta,Amprex or other AoE weapons kill the game since they are kind of OP compared to other weapons and you don't even need to aim properly, but at least I can live with that.. but just spamming one button isn't fun. I want a game that I can also play when I've got everything and has stuff I'll get later on. So syndicates are quite nice, because you still make some progress even though it doesn't matter much (currently)

 

P.S. the Viver thing will have a deep impact we'll only see sometime later on.

This grind-fest will be fixed entirely with unforeseen consequences.. Just the economy can't be fixed.. the damage caused there is forever.

Edited by ShiroiTora

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Thanks for the info Steve. It's good to hear that DE is at least acknowledging that their handling of Viver was a fiasco, mildly speaking.

 

I look forward to an update that will make me want to play the game again, and I hope that it won't be too far into the future.

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honestly I am ok with nerfing all frames and making them weaker to present us with challenge

BUT if you do so

Please take notice that the nerf-hammer should apply to all warframes AND enemies

+ Rewards should be EASIER to obtain to justify the difficulty increase

  • Upvote 1

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The new changes are not to my liking so I put Warframe on hold. It was nice idea, with great stuff in it, but lately it lost focus and too much bugs went unfixed. I will follow the forums and the updates, maybe it will get better, but for know, I will play some other game. Sorry.

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The new changes are not to my liking so I put Warframe on hold. It was nice idea, with great stuff in it, but lately it lost focus and too much bugs went unfixed. I will follow the forums and the updates, maybe it will get better, but for know, I will play some other game. Sorry.

Same here

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Hey, if you want to add "skill" into the game, adding Line of Sight isnt the way to do it. If the enemies have a simple form of Blindfire then they will mostly stay hidden in cover for the most part, and if you need to get behind something for cover, the sight might mess up and prevent you from killing stuff. And honestly, an "Ultimate" feels like that skill you use when stuff gets real. Theres someone down, ammos running low, the teams outnumbered by 100 to 1, having a panic skill makes sense since you can use it, kill alot of stuff and weaken the others, allowing you to revive that person, get your ammo and only be outnumbered slightly, like 50 to 1. Instead of Line of Sight added to Ultimates, why not have a "cooldown" of sorts? Rhinos Stomp has that already, where anything that lives get trapped in a stasis and the stomp cant be used agian until all the stasis enemies are dead or the timer on stasis runs out, why not the same thing for Ultimates with a similar proc? Im fine with Energy Vampire and Shield Polarize, since those skills arent make or break skills, they only help you kill and stay alive longer.

 

Also, its rather hard to add skill to a game with only 4 skills in the first place, since most of the skills we have now are basically "I Win" buttons. And not every skill has cohesion, meaning you cant maximize the entire Warframe, one skill might require Duration, while two others require Strength but all four skills require Range. With so much going on, its rather hard to use all 4 skills since we have to choose which 1-2 skills we want to use, with a third skill being a panic button we use once in a blue moon, if at all.

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As I said in the update forum, I'm still not playing this damn game until you revert this change.

 

You said you're keeping LoS? Then design damn maps that work well with LoS. Maps with narrow corridors and wall runs, etc don't work well with LoS abilities. If everything was designed like the archwing open space missions and all of the abilites are LoS, fine that wouldn't be an issue. LoS would only be a practical nerf if your game was designed in such a way to promote this game mechanic while your current maps/game do not.

 

"We don't want this to be a press 4 to win game" then you ultimately need another way to do crowd control in the game. As is, the current game is use warframe abilities for AoE and use weapons for damage.  There are only a few AoE weapons and most/all of them deal damage to yourself when you miss which is basically an insta-kill self. End-game missions couldn't really use abilities to simply kill everything except for when used with your energy pads in mass or use the trinity energy vampire. When pressing 4 is the only way to crowd control level 50 enemies that would otherwise kill you right away and you have enemies with near perfect aim (thanks to your new algorithm). With LoS all you're doing is breaking high-level play. You might as well make all abilities LoS with the current path.

 

Simply put, the press 4 to win game mechanic was already there and has been there for a long time. How so? 75% energy efficiency, constant orb drops (which are needed for players that don't have every mod in the game), insta-recharge abilites, energy pads, and the above point of the the use of 4 abilites for crowd-control. Super range and power strength mods don't help this. I don't see how I need to add in +130% strength and max range mods on a warframe in order for it to kill enemies effectively is an exploit, it's simply utilizing the best combo of the mod options you have given us.

 

Finally, why are so many people farming Viver in this manner for rep points? Well let's examine it, you introduced a system purely tied to EXP as an "end-game " system. It literally would take using normal methods THOUSANDS of hours for players to achieve. So the people who were already end-game (like myself) who had every mod, prior to update 15, and every frame with a max level and nearly all of the useful weapons leveled and formaed there was little else for use to do but to farm for the 40 mods behind Which in turn, makes us find the most practical way to achieve these without having to spend thousands of hours without other goals to achieve.

 

Enough for the problems, let's talk about solutions.

 

First, change the Viver map this is pretty easy, expand the tileset and change the enemy spawn rate..

 

Second, make Syndicates a more fun system to use and a more end-game system. Well how can DE do this? You could lock certain levels to mastery ranks. You could use a bonus multiplier for your mastery rank something like (1 + mastery rank * EXP). You could put large quests tied to the levels instead of just kill enemies for EXP to rank up. You make it such that only high-geared/level players could accomplish the missions to rank up. You could use sigil patterns as a method to unlock specialty areas. Think about if each syndicate had it's own node on the star chart which granted a lot of rep for high-level missions which could only be accessed by having those different sigils obtained instead of just an daily alert mission.

Edited by 3thereal

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It is so refreshing to see a company admit they made a mistake. Bravo!

 

Knowing you can recognise when mistakes are made, and seeing you want to fix them makes me feel a lot more confident about continuing to support this game financially.

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Perhaps we need a change from Ultimates that work on a Press 4 - Receive perfect circular CC system. Making them more restrictive may add skill, but it won't make them more enjoyable to use. At the very worst with LoS, we'd just have to set up Alternating birds so 4 is being hit a little faster, as long as we have ways of recuperating that energy, Trinity, Energy Packs, 75% efficiency, even a Limbo can help, 4 spam will continue, and will be the solution to a lot of scenarios.
Of course, with the number of enemies and the spawn mechanics, it's hard to survive without some form of protection.  
Protection, Crowd Control, and Offense need to be more separated. Loki/Ash have protection in Invisibility, Zephyr has protection in Turbulence. These are skills that offer safety, without winning the combat scenario, you must still move, you must still be aware of the enemies that can get around your safety net, MOAS for Loki, Long range and Melee enemies for Zephyr. For a lot of frames 'Casters' this safety net is Crowd Control, and for some it works. Nyx has Chaos, which can still kill her or her allies if they're are not careful, it does not shut down the feeling of the game while offering protection, it might be more powerful than some other CC skills, but it is less damaging to the game in this sense. 
 

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DE PLEASE U NEED TO WATCH THIS VIDEO

 

omg i only saw this posted here 101k times already im sure DE wasnt aware of it

 

I have a question for you DE

Why do you nerf the Warframes and not buff the enemies?

(Honest question, I dont mean to be rude here)

 

To improve the difficulty to obtain reputation points please introduce enemies with

1. Weak spot mechanics

2. Innate resistance to certain warframe skills

Just saying that there are different ways to create challenge instead of scaling/nerfing (Again I do not know if you already thought of it or not since there is no information on this topic and in-game enemies dont displace any of these characteristics, however increasing difficulty by limiting players is going in the wrong direction)

That way we could clear a crowd of cannon fodder enemies and fight the big and bad new cool enemies that you will introduce with these new mechanics

 

*edit*

Enemies with innate resistances will only appear in higher level areas and will therefore be difficult and time consuming to fight

It would slow down the gain/min on higher level missions, therefore balancing low-lvl missions/high lvl mission XP/rep gain

 

What this has to do with Viver:

Viver is not the problem.

Once viver is changed, people will find another way to get reputation as fast as possible, because thats just how people are

We allways try to find the most efficient and comfortable way to get our rewards

 

What game developers in general have to do to get some variety into gameplay is to equally distribute the rewards on different aspects/missions of the game

This can be achieved by

1. Creating challenge so press 4 2 win is not viable (Most enjoyable option, I do understand that it takes time tho and hope it is being worked on)

2. Decreasing spawn rates in certain areas of the game and increasing them to equal/higher levels in other areas (I do not mean the same amount of enemies but in fact the same amount of gain/min (20 enemies in defense are way faster to kill than 20 enemies in exterminate since enemies are drawn towards the pod in defense. The food will come to you instead of you having to hunt the food)/Alternatively setting a default amount of repuation gained to every mission and increasing it with time spent in missions/ type of mission/ state of player (afk/active)

 

(balancing can be achieved rather fast in comparison to releasing new content such as challenging enemies/bosses/mission mechanics/tile sets and is a good step in the right direction and the base of your fundamental gameplay)

 

3. Creating exclusive content only availible by playing certain aspects/missions of a game

(This currently does not apply to the syndicate system)

Creating exclusive content can be either good or bad depending on the customer mindset or the way exclusive is presented

Personally I like the thing DE did with hydroids attainability

Note however that the exclusive factor should justify the reward

 

Exclusive should never end in: 1. Pay2W  2.pay2p(in F2P games) 3. unachievable grind to get to the content

 

How does this affect the system and increase the variety and fun?

 

Creating challenge, makes certain aspects of the game more appealing and enjoyable for players who do not care for the rewards. 

 

2. Balancing gain per minute is important so that people dont fall into patterns and get bored

Since all missions reward you, you will be able to play all and have variety

 

3. Creating exclusive content will give you things to brag about

 

The syndicate system is not based on any variety

People will try to exploit it to get to their rewards as fast as possible

 

To offer variety:

The syndicate quests could have a way higher rep gain and therefore have missions like: killing lephantis in under 4minutes or T-bagging Vor 20times before he disappears (nothing chance-based like stalker/G3/harvester)

 

I think DE is smart enough to take the right decisions and I have faith they will do the right thing

I am in this comment only displaying possible generic options that may or may not be approved by the community/DE or do not fit the situation all that well, if seen from different perspectives

I deeply apologize if I rub someone the wrong way

I wrote this comment only on my personal opinion and knowledge based of playing games and in no way claim that the options I posted are in any way unfailing

Edited by Seyenas
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DE PLEASE U NEED TO WATCH THIS VIDEO

 

 

If they haven't watched it yet, they're not going to. It's only been posted none stop for 2 days.

 

I doubt they will take his advice anyway, in a month all stages will have a super slow spawn rate and all frames will be reworked with crappy LOS mechanics which no one finds fun. 

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omg i only saw this posted here 101k times already im sure DE wasnt aware of it

 

I have a question for you DE

Why do you nerf the Warframes and not buff the enemies?

Please introduce enemies with

1. weak spot mechanics

2. innate resistance to certain warframe skills

(Just saying there are different ways to create challenge instead of scaling/nerfing)

 

 

That way we could clear a crowd of cannon fodder enemies and fight the big and bad new cool enemies that you will introduce with these new mechanics

Why not fix Syndicate system, which is the problem.

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Firefighting is pretty tiring I bet. Okay, off with the cinical retorts and onto the real feedback part!

 

From the get go, most of you fixes, patches and hell, even most of simple changes reek of disinterest... okay, let's call it rush, they feel rushed. It's like instead of trying to actually fix the source, you (as DE_Steve phrased it so well) try to plug the holes. Instead of realizing why people swarm maps where they can exploit certain flaws of the game, you try to fix that single map; instead of setting up a proper balanced system/ruleset for weapons, you try to buff/nerf them one-by-one, seemingly without any regard to the stats of other weapons; removing a bugged/illogical/OP part of an ability without ever thinking about what's left behind... it's like there is a loose leg on the chair but instead of fixing it, you remove it altogether or build a concrete wall around it. You try to fix the result instead of the cause.

Surprisingly most of your patches that try to handle gameplay problems look like this.

 

I'm not into hacking your code so I can't tell if this is the reason why you still haven't managed to solve the issue of networking... which, let's face it, is a crucial part of this game and which is surprisingly bad considering that even utter garbage free games manage to do it properly most of the time. I admit this sounds offensive (and that my posts are more offensive nowadays than the previous 95% of them) but it's because if you think about it it's seriously ridiculous that a game that is about coop play cannot be played in coop to a ton of people and even 80% of the players that actually can play it in multiplayer, is affected negatively by this problem, even now, after you announced the end of Beta stages, you produced 15 "big" updates, and the game is actually openly played for more than a year.

 

Sure, there are other games out there that are a lot worse, (let's face it, recently even AAA games from BIG companies end up on garbage level way more frequently than it should be the case) but if that's the excuse we are going to use then there is no meaning to a feedback forum.

 

Okay, so instead of beating around the bush, all I can ask is for you to actually play your game. Properly, from the beginning, create a profile, no cheating, hell, no plat even except for accessories and play the game properly, every part of it. I know the reason for beta testing and the feedback forum is so you get a ton of people do that for you - but if you forget logic and instead of thinking about what is considered proper solution, you just want to silence the whining, it won't work.

 

"A weapon is weak? Let's buff it a bit! Not enough? Buff it more! Too much... hmm, nah, forget it!"

"Players are getting stuff too fast? Let's add a mandatory item to the new things that has to be farmed first and it even degrades over time!"

"We can't think of any addition to the current game? Introduce a gamemode that looks new, call it archwing, put it into space and we can roll out the same mods and weapons again! Essentially brings nothing new to the game and even has no cohesion towards the game's world and design? No problem, it's shiny!"

 

Yea, I guess I am pretty annoyed and it shows - but I bet many agrees with me that this is exactly how it feels.

Just like up till now. Players are gradually leaving because whatever you add to the game, as long as the same annoying mistakes are still in, players will lose patience after a while. I have been playing only since open beta and even I have played enough to greet certain design flaws, bugs etc. as an old friend whom I see every day on the way towards work.

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Dont cave in to these weaklings. THE PLAYERS KNOW THEY ARE ABUSING AND EXPLOITING MECHANICS. This is not even up for debate or discussion. If these so called BETA testers cared about their game versus about how much/what they could get, the Viver situation would have blown up constructively on the Feedback Forums. Can you enlighten us as to how many of these posts you received, DE?

 

If you are going to implement line of sight... then implement it across the board.  Also, unless they are heavies/eximus/bosses, give enemy AI the sense to not walk into that HUGE 50m vortex of destruction.

 

 I dont know about the Tenno to my left and to my right... but I have never played this game in a way that I finish missions (during our premier events, no less) in 2 min or less, then come on the forums and whine about nothing to do. When I enter a mission im ALLLLLL ABOUT doing the objective.

 

If you feel you went too far... man up and say it. solicit feedback, make a patch, solicit feedback. Try, try again. If you feel THE PLAYERS  are just as reponsible, man up and say that too. Abusing nodes/abilities to exploit farm Syndicate rep so you can sell a bunch of crap on trade chat doesnt give you a moral highground to come on the forums and bash the Devs when they fix/nerf it.

 

THE PLAYERS are who brought about this whole situation. DE is naturally going to overcompensate at first and then tone it back. It is expected. Just please, DE... never operate under the assumption that the majority of your players care about lore, backstories, legends, myths, loyalty, or any of that. It is ALWAYS about what can I get, how much can I get, how fast can I get it and how much wealth can I make off of it? When you release events and patches, just keep this in mind.

 

You guys catch a lot of flak. Some of it is deserved, some is not. My opinion is that what you envision your playerbase to be... is not what your playerbase is. I could go on on and on about the rampant underage Infestation that we have, the years and years of bad habits learned on other games and brought into ours, etc etc. But I wont. I just hope its not too late to salvage the vision of Warframe, thats all.

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I don't agree with the frame nerf that happen just to solve an abuse of a mission node. There is more to the game than just that board and to nerf a few frames used doesn't stop that abuse. What's next your going to nerf the rest? cause anyway you look at it other frames can fill in for those that you just nerf'd. I can't say I know a fix, but cutting at frames is not fixing anything. Worst part is you'll never stop players that just want to abuse a good thing, you'll just stop the good players that want to play.

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