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[DE]Steve

Vivergate: Vent Radioactive Gas Y/n

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Well, let's see what you have in store, i promise, there will be feedback, and a lot.

Also, shouldn't we talk a bit more about how reputation is gained?

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I think the main problem may be the tedious grinding for syndicate rep, which was why the farming began in the first pace I suppose...

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Don't make the change of AoE over one map that is particularly devastated by large AoE requiring multiple formas to achieve that outcome.
It is an exception, not the rule. If it's a problem truly everywhere, at ability and frame levels for that content then change it. LoS will not necessarily make the game more interesting either. Hitting 4 a few more times is not an appreciable change. 

So long as we can press a button to make everything shooting at us stop it will not improve. You'll just make people switch over to defense maps with a frost spamming a bubble every time it goes down and have the nukers blow away enemies whenever they get nearby. 

We need skill based challenges, that can't just be solved by abilities, or enemies that can partially protect or counter abilities in a way we can play around. 
 

Edited by LukeAura
  • Upvote 16

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Still nothing about Syndicates, the reason for this stupid grinding.

 

You continue to ignore this glaring issue.

 

 

Additionaly LoS is a terrible idea for warframe and you of all people should know that.

 

Your post answers nothing, you continue to ignore problems that by now have been brought up thousands of times by the community. Problems that everyone except you seem to see.

I'm saying it flat out: Either you deliberatly ignore our feedback or you're not competent at your job.

 

I would have expected better, much better from someone that gets paid to do this for dozens of hours per week.

  • Upvote 28

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everyone within 80 meters dies with keyboard macro’ is a larger issue than any one particular map. I’d be curious what your thoughts are.

 

Here's my opinion on the subject: Line of sight is good, up to a point.

 

The problems players have with it is that it suffers in tight corridors full of cover like the ones found on Grineer tilesets, and the detection is oftentimes totally wonky. Also, it seems very picky in what it chooses to hit. 

 

If abilities have line of sight, then they need a degree of "spillover". Enemies shouldn't be able to escape a nuke going off three feet away from them by ducking behind a box.

 

I'd suggest giving abilities a small radius of hard AoE, with a larger effect area based on line of sight. 

 

Anyways, thanks for the honesty. It's always nice to hear straight talk from the devs. 

  • Upvote 18

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inb4 all AoE have LoS

 

 

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

 

 

 

Hmm, why my Trinity-Nerf Spider Sense is Tingling ?

Edited by RexSol
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Thank you again for the Syndicate system and thank you again for moving gameplay forward.

Edited by VKhaun

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Hmm, I'll hold off my judgment on whatever changes are incoming. Usually these changes come with more nerfs/unwanted changes than we'd like, and the upside isn't that appealing for most recent hotfixes/updates.

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Still not feeling the LOS stuff since 90% of your maps are small areas where enemies tend to group up in.

You are better of changing the syndicate system, since that started all of this.

Players will always find a way to get exp/rep the fastest. If it's not Viver we'll move on to the next map. I hear we will offer less grind / rng all the time, yet grind caused all of this.

 

I really don't know what to say anymore.

  • Upvote 19

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I await the hotfixes to see whether you fix the real problem, the absolutely terrible way Syndicate XP is dealt with.

  • Upvote 5

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Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

 

B...better nerf Trinity. *dies inside*

 

The point is valid though, the only time someone brings out their Trinity these days is to give everyone infinite energy. Instead of continued nerfs to Energy Vampire, it might be time to face the music and replace it entirely.

 

Just bear in mind this'll have quite a backlash - the replacement ability would have to have enough of an impact to be as defining as EV was (just not as degenerate).

 

(Side thought: What would happen if energy stopped dropping off enemies? I'm thinking certain spots you can stand near to regenerate energy, like the energy beams in the void or Jupiter. This would make energy management more important in the long run, rather than spending 25 energy to clear a crowd because you know you'll get 50 back.)
 
 

 

This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in. That’s the short answer to ‘why the hell is DE messing with us’. Homer’s drinking bird should not play the game for you.

 

We will be changing the dreaded map somewhat today… the level team has refused to grant my request of making Viver an insta-kill-lava-death-pit. Instead, spawning will be staggered to help address enemy clumps, but again - ‘everyone within 80 meters dies with keyboard macro’ is a larger issue than any one particular map. I’d be curious what your thoughts are.

 

I know yesterday’s changes have exposed deep frustrations from our Tenno - from Syndicates to mission types, and poetically it all began with our first Warframe: Excalibur. With your voices ringing in our ears we intend to remedy as soon as possible. I look forward to reading your reactions to the next series of hotfixes (I have my asbestos underpants on now).

 

YYY YY   YY YYYYYYY YYY

(-DE_Steve)

 

 

While this is all well and good, it still doesn't address the source of these issues. Viver was always in this state, but until reputation came along, there was no reason to grind so intensely. Even if you balance out every degenerate map and remove every exploit, everyone will still be sitting on some defense or another. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the original intention for Reputation seemed to be to reward long-term passive progression. But even a 40-wave defense on Sechura, a comparatively tame and well-balanced map, can grant you the same reputation as a hundred Captures or Rescues or what have you, if not more.

 

In the current state, we're not rewarding passive play, we're punishing it. From my experience, getting to rank 5 in my syndicate would take 77 hours on pre-rework Viver, or 2200 hours of running non-endless missions. That is a huge gap. For comparison's sake, even running regular survivals such as Appollodorus or T3S would take me ~640 hours.

 

The problem is that we're grinding for the same old things, so we go back to the same old places. Rescue 2.0 was a good idea because it gave us some reason to do something other than survival/defense. Interception fixed a game type noone ever played by giving us something we can't get anywhere else. Now we're not only not getting anything for Exterminate and friends, we're actively losing out by getting much less reputation than we otherwise would.

 

You're never going to get anywhere just balancing maps and warframes. Take away the motive, not the means. Have each mission reward a flat 100 Reputation. If you're feeling fancy, apply bonuses for enemy level, nightmare mode, finishing your affinity bonus objective. Have endless missions reward it at each checkpoint the way Cryotic is on excavations to give people reasons to go further. Just find a way of bringing relevance back to the "small" missions.

 

 

(This has made me incredibly concerned for Focus. Let's hope we won't see a repeat of this mistake.)

Edited by Spacetimer
  • Upvote 10

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While certain powers may indeed be need of some nerfing, making it LoS in most cases defeats the purpose of needing to use it. I'm sure there is some way LoS can be implemented smart, but a good solution to 4s being OP is to have situations where 4 isn't the answer, not remove 4 from ever being viable. 4s effectiveness tapers off as levels get higher and their utility aspect is what keeps them going, not straight up damage. Harder difficulties or mobs with circumvental AI can prevent 4 from being the "cure-all" for every situation. With LoS, especially as buggy as it is, instead of creating situations where 4 might not be the answer, 4 is instead being removed as a choice, since they are becoming entirely inneffectual.

  • Upvote 9

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Sorry Steve but here's just the one thing I'll have to say.

Dev or not, not matter how many people will be fanboying over and immediatly forgiving you for just saying sorry, I will let you know that these recent changes were the most poorly thought out of the entire warframe history.

Maybe sitting in a corner spamming a power isn't how things should be, but only a few select gamemodes and maps deal with this kind of gameplay, most of the game is constantly moving, as well as tight spaces and plenty of cover. You cannot, I repeat, you CANNOT justify such a heavy change because of merely a portion of the game, becaus the easily screws up with everythin else.

I say: Revert the viver nerfs ASAP and if you must the properly review the powers, test them accordingly and make sure that this changes do not affect the powers negatively across the entire game. While the changes may seem justified based on the select few 'stand still' maps, they pretty much are a death sentence in the rest of the game with plenty lf cover and tight corridors and rooms.

  • Upvote 53

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Please check this out; changing Viver or spawnrates won't help. Mag's shield polarize needs the 
"xray" functionality because of shield drones and their linking to enemies out of LoS. 

  • Upvote 7

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Thanks for the info, this also means that tomorrow's devstream will ""focus"" on our questions about what is to come/old issues.

 

Viver is only a symptom... The cause is somewhere else,and has a bad reputation...

  • Upvote 1

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I don't see problem with syndicate. These are long term objectives, It is normal that we can't max them in a weekend

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Welp.

 

If you're asking.

 

Fastest way to fix Ultimate spam and the Homer's drinking bird paradox is to give ultimates that do dmg a bigger CD and a dmg buff and make them a functional "Oh **** " button than a "I shall now press this button 1 million times and loot will pop out whenever I do!".

 

Other ideas? Tie syndicate rep to accomplishing the mission. But for the love of my sanity make it over 2000 or something. I'd love to feel some real progress and not get 80 rep points and a pat on the back. Or tie it to the difficulty of the mission. Just make it set so we can't fiddle with it unless we use a better Sigil or something. Oh and please make the different sigils give more rep. Pretty please?

 

You could diversify the sigils in fact. One sigil gave a credit boost one gives an EXP boost and one gives a rep boost and one gives a resource boost. We'd always have a reason to wear one and buy them and we'd be rewarded for progressing.

 

I don't want a Korean grinder! That is basically MMO HELL for a casual player like me who gets dragged back in by friends every now and again. Syndicates without Viver are basically a "Aww hell naw!" mechanic for someone who has put any considerable time into this.

 

Well. That's my 2 cents.

 

Have a good day ya'll.

Edited by Ziegrif
  • Upvote 18

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Unless you actually implement enemies with cohesive mechanics to them, spamming abilities at the right time is going to be it. Line of Sight isn't the best idea for warframe, both because it's bugged as hell and because it tends to be counting *bodies* as obstacles. Which makes it unreliable in cube.

 

I'm all for skill, but I have to draw the line at making skills unreliable to use. Please consider removing Line of Sight, at least until you make it work reliably. You could nerf Shield Polarize to make it only remove half of CURRENT shield, you could make EV fall to half efficiency past half it'r range (so it's half-range full efficiency, half-range sharp fall). In a small, static map like on Viver, homer's drinking bird is necessary evil, which you have to understand. 

 

You could make some actual bosses spawn on the interception waves if too many are killed, would be fun. Imagine fighting Jackal there? You could also tie syndicate rewards to per/wave basis, making such farm obsolete and giving us our lovely functional abilities back.

 

Also, how about making each sigil past first add a .2-.25 of current mastery rank to reputation multiplier? Would make them more geared for high-level, and give veterans a breather. On that topic, make gaining ranks give sigils automatically, it's expensive as is.

Edited by GTG3000
  • Upvote 14

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you know i think i'm just happy they said sorry (even though the  update didn't really effect me much), you know how hard it is to accept ones fault after making some big mess?

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Certainly agree on the topic of making game interaction actually required, the fact viver reached macro point was proof of a serious issue present. The issue I took with the update in particular was how it seemed pretty clearly to be a nerf towards the current viver frames, fixing the tool rather than the hole so to speak, even though that tool has genuine uses elsewhere.

 

I haven't had enough time to fully try out the changes so I can't speak for the changes themselves, just that changing them as a direct result of Viver and targetting in that way seemed very unjustified.

 

I personally don't like the whole idea of apply LOS to everything though, I think other methods of diversifying skills while increasing skill level would be of great use. What those methods are, I have no idea currently, but I don't think LOS being a blanket fix is a good idea either. For some abilities the lack of LOS would be a selling point for example, whereas some of the LOS based abilities could have extra CC effects or such thrown in, giving the ability an extra use at higher levels while also raising the skill requirement to make use of that extra effect.

 

With all that said, thank you for acknowledging the problem and working towards rectifying it, its why I still have faith in DE, the amount of community interaction is great bar a few screw ups like this one. I look forward to hearing your plans as they develop.

Edited by Jag272
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