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[DE]Steve

Vivergate: Vent Radioactive Gas Y/n

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Well from somebody who isn't on PC, nor plays on this Viver place..... here's my thoughts:

 

Just cutting something so somebody can't use it anymore is never really a good answer. It's a quick one, but not good.Sadly it's hard to find the proper answer quickly too. I do agree more mechanics could come into play to provide the challenge we need and the solution of not hitting 4 to win (though a Homer's Bird Frame would be an instabuy). It's got to be rough in game development design. Trying to come out with that awesome thing to please everybody just doesn't happen, but a happy place can be found.

 

We don't mind working hard to earn something (Regular game or Syndicate related). There just comes that point where there's all the hard work and no gain due to the roll of a dice. Get's frustrating. When a place is found to alleviate that pain, it's going to be used. More grind isn't really long term or end game stuff, it's just more to do for all the same reasons we've been doing it before.

 

End game/long term =/= more grind. That's just boring. I think getting rewards for accomplishments is more satisfying as a player than getting a reward for nothing but not for doing the same brainless thing over and over. That forces a player to look for the easy way out, and of course that doesn't end well.

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Please remove line of sight requirements for some of the frames. It honestly makes no sense to call a frame "Mag" and she is unable to magnetize enemies behind cover. That's what she has to do to survive.

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I don't see problem with syndicate. These are long term objectives, It is normal that we can't max them in a weekend

You'll understand the point better when you become mastery rank 15-18. It won't be a bother to u right now because u still have a long road ahead of u.

U can do Syndicate reps passively but vets just wouldn't want another 400 hours to achieve the desirable rep point

Edited by Pewpewfighter
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The attention to this by the Dev's is greatly appreciated.  With, yes, the caveat that....uh...really?  No one could possibly see how silly the mag and excal nerfs were before shoving them into place?

 

Loss of the Viver farm is fine.  Finding ways to get players to actually pay attention to the game while getting affinity and rep is fine. 

 

The Trinity nerf is not a frame-breaker.  Energy Vampire is still immensely powerful and works well at its job.  It happens to be a little harder to spambot now.

 

The Excalibur nerf specifically targets newer players and cuts them out of groups because they play "an inferior frame".  The Mag nerf does so to a lesser extent, because there are fewer players with Mag+0 to 3 other frames in their entire inventory.

 

You created a vast gulf in utility between "hits through walls" and "hits only what it can see" AoE damage dealing abilities.  Given how hard some of the enemies hit, how fast they aim and fire once they see a tenno, and how they NEVER miss....hitting through walls (either with damage or with crowd controls) is somewhat essential to, well, winning, if you are not going to rely on invisibility or phasing into the void....so....there may not _BE_ an easy, across-the-board, fix to the problem of radial damage going through wall or not.

 

In the mean time, creating DPS 'have nots' out of Excal and Mag was a terrible idea and cannot be reversed fast enough.

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I still don't agree with the nerfs. Mostly because they haven't/wont fix anything. The real issue here is the syndicate reputation system. Nerfing our beloved Trinity, Mag and Excalibro's abilities only caused us to put them on the dusty shelf to be replaced with others.

 

Do you get it? Abilities aren't the issue. Viver isn't the issue.

 

The reputation system is the issue here.

Edited by kubbi
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Remember Damage 2.0, Steve? Remember how thorough you guys were because quote "[Damage 2.0] touches everything"?

Please. I know you guys are working at 110% capacity, but Please remember that changes are drops of water, and they ripple far and wide. Each change "touches everything."

We, your community, are literally jumping out of our chairs to offer our help. Use us! 100,000 eyes are better than 1!

+1

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From what I can gather on the issue, the main problem is that the rewards you can glean from this sort of AFk spam are actually far greater than those you get from playing the game.

 

the problem is twofold here.

 

Firstly you have a method of play that requires far less interaction from the player, ergo, it is easier to do.

 

Secondly, this method grants far higher rewards than anything else. Even if the rewards it gave were slightly lesser than those given in normal play, it would still be popular due to the lower level of player effort needed.

 

 

The problem extends beyond the map, and farming method, binding syndicate gain to frame affinity, and frame affinity only. Reputation is meant to be a measure of how impressed a syndicate is with you, so why should spamming 4 for 20 minutes impress them more than say taking down Lephantitis solo with only a Skana?

Why not set up a nice long list of challenges that reward you with rep? Stick them in groups and have them repeatable after the entire group has been completed. 

 

 

The other major point here is the problem with powerfarm in general. You can sit there and abuse powers and spawn mechanics to kill everything instantly. It isn't just Viver, other interception missions can be exploited just as easily, hell, two runs on PowerFarm Kiste will max out a weapon.

The best solution I can come up with in regards to this is to give enemies a degree of immunity/resistance to powers upon spawning. Giving enemies a 90% damage reduction from power damage for the first 10 seconds after they spawn would go a long way to curb powerfarming tactics, without having a major impact on the normal game.

 

I hope I am not rambling too much here

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That's why we need a cooldown on №4. To decrease ulti spam. It should be a game changer for a hairy situation, not "i'm too lazy to aim, better nuke all" button.

 

Better yet - a Power 2.0.

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Lol look at all the up votes Steve got for saying sorry we messed up. I don't hate anyone over what happened with this last update and figured something would be done (eventually) to fix it. But there is no way I'm going to up vote Steve's apology when the "mistake" could've been so easily avoided.

Edited by RoninJed
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the funny thing is it's usually only steve that says sorry.. even for other people like when the UI dev team broke U14...

for that i have nothing but utter respect for steve even if he comes across as a bit of a laugh and not too serious. he's the one that knows what needs to be said and when.. the rest of the devs mostly just avoid answering direct questions about their decisions and also avoid saying sorry if they where wong.

Steve is the leader and that what the leader does regardless what or anyone in the team does. You don't blame/name anyone to the community and you have to assume making the unpopular calls as well.

On topic,

Thank you, Steve, for the info.

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The problem never had anything to do with how LOS worked, or any of the frames, it had to do with how massive a grind the syndicate system is. It is not worth it to have to sink several more hundreds of hours in order to get mods

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This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in.

 

 

If you intend to add LoS on more and more things, please make the enemies obey the same rules, no more eximuses poisoning/slowing/draining energy/etc. through walls either.

Edited by jepeman
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I'm solidly behind Mogamu on this one: 

 

The problem wasn't broken ability synergies - the problem was that players felt the need to device them in order to grind the insane amount of syndicate rep needed to get... what? Some not that impressive special weapon mods, and some warframe ability mods of which only a few seem worth it?

 

I guess rep grinding to get access to T4 keys is nice - but 20 rep for a regular mission, and then asking for 400K rep to reach max rank with a single syndicate?

 

That is the problem. Not drinking bird ability tricks.

 

 

My suggestions:

 

1) Tie mastery rank to the syndicate rep grind somehow. The syndicates should be rewarding more senior tenno for obvious reasons.

 

2) increase the overall rep gain from missions...

 

20 rep for a single mission - to 400K for max rank - equates to TWENTY THOUSAND mission. Holy crap that is a lot.... and unless you're a new player just starting who might just see that number as just another part of the grind to open up the entire system map and whatnot - then you look a that and think "I'll never get there"

 

Hell, there's under 200 under unique levels in the current solar system map. That would mean having to do each those at least a hundred times over!

 

Can you see why that isn't going to work?

 

The whole point of a free to play like Warframe is give players just enough progression that they stay on - while at the same time not giving too much so they blow through everything too quickly and get bored. This current setup - nerfed warframes or not - just isn't giving players enough for their effort.

 

I'm mastery rank 13 - You would think that the syndicates would recognized an experienced tenno as a greater asset than someone who just cleared venus and think their Cronus is the best thing ever.

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My personal thoughts on the issue on Warframe Ultimate abilities is that you don't need to have them so... simple. You said it yourself, actually.

 

Your best Ultimate ability for a pure offense Warframe is Ash. He does a ton of damage all around, but it takes quite a while to do it and it's presented in a way that is both awesome and functionally a con to having such raw damage.

 

But something like Rhino Stomp or Overload? They're too simple. One of them makes zero sense in what it does (hint: Starts with R and ends with O).

 

It's cool to have a macro key for something awesome to happen on screen that's so powerful that it makes your jaw drop. Let me give you an example of another really cool ultimate from another game:

 

Reaper's Deathblossom from Overwatch (which hasn't been released yet). He basically does a Press 4 to Unleash AoE Hell on his enemies, but it's done in a way where it's fun to look at and it's not simply "Press 4 and everything dies."

 

I know you guys at DE can do stuff like that. You're a talented team. I know you could even do better than the example I just shared with you.

 

Also, Steve, your team should also consider having Warframes that aren't a part of the 1/2/3/4 ability mold. Think outside of the box. Experiment with a different set-up as well as different mechanics. Mechanics aren't so different if their set-up is practically the same.

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Thank you guys for posting this. I honestly mean that.

 

Good to see that you guys did in fact consider it an exploit as well.

 

And more importantly thank you for confirming that the way Viver was played is NOT what you guys want the game to be like.

Edited by Seraphyx

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I wish this rethinking of things and how it affects players in the game, Would have been do with Ash's blade storm But alas it is what it is.

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I'm solidly behind Mogamu on this one: 

 

The problem wasn't broken ability synergies - the problem was that players felt the need to device them in order to grind the insane amount of syndicate rep needed to get... what? Some not that impressive special weapon mods, and some warframe ability mods of which only a few seem worth it?

 

I guess rep grinding to get access to T4 keys is nice - but 20 rep for a regular mission, and then asking for 400K rep to reach max rank with a single syndicate?

 

That is the problem. Not drinking bird ability tricks.

 

 

My suggestions:

 

1) Tie mastery rank to the syndicate rep grind somehow. The syndicates should be rewarding more senior tenno for obvious reasons.

 

2) increase the overall rep gain from missions...

 

20 rep for a single mission - to 400K for max rank - equates to TWENTY THOUSAND mission. Holy crap that is a lot.... and unless you're a new player just starting who might just see that number as just another part of the grind to open up the entire system map and whatnot - then you look a that and think "I'll never get there"

 

Hell, there's under 200 under unique levels in the current solar system map. That would mean having to do each those at least a hundred times over!

 

Can you see why that isn't going to work?

 

The whole point of a free to play like Warframe is give players just enough progression that they stay on - while at the same time not giving too much so they blow through everything too quickly and get bored. This current setup - nerfed warframes or not - just isn't giving players enough for their effort.

 

I'm mastery rank 13 - You would think that the syndicates would recognized an experienced tenno as a greater asset than someone who just cleared venus and think their Cronus is the best thing ever.

agreed mogamu summed it up into a long nutshell :D

 

all ability's effected by los need to get fixed back before the los that includes radial blind

Edited by tris1
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Thank you for the post, DESteve. I'm sure a lot of the Community appreciates it.

 

http://strawpoll.me/2981456

 

this has been floating around the forums, it shows just how much backlash there is for the Changes.

 

I think that any LoS changes need to be altered quite heavily before being implemented. LoS is very punishing in a lot of Tiles, especially Grineer Tiles. there are so many boxes and small walls and cover for the Grineer that its going to be extraordinarily difficult to use LoS abilities. 

 

if we are going to have LoS based abilities, Eximus Auras need the same LoS changes. 

 

LoS seems like it is going to make abilities hit or miss, some of them are going to be hit very hard, some of them wont change too much. 

 

To me it feels like these changes will certainly slow down game-play. I know I will be slowing down quite a bit when they come into play.

 

things like rhino stomp, the very nature of it is not LoS, as it is the impact of his foot radiating out-wards to deal damage. it should be similar to MP's expansion, but at a higher rate of speed.

 

Crush on the other hand, that is mag lifting enemies and crushing them, that is concentration. that makes sense to be LoS.  

 

Misma? she is coating everything in the area with a spray, it should be LoS.  but it should curve around edges as liquid/gas does. it is not Finite like light, where it can not bend.

 

overload? not LoS at all. it can electrify the ground, the air, the roof, the moisture in the air, everything. 

 

it is all very dependent on the "physics" of the ability.

sound can travel through walls and crates, so none of banshees abilities should be LoS. magnetism (unless it is made of ferrite or super thick) would not be stopped by a wall. so SP should not be LoS. Radial Blind? its light. it should be LoS. Radial Disarm? its supposedly magnetism jaming the firing mechanism of the weapons, so it should not be LoS. those are the questions that need to be asked.

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Personally I feel making all these AoE "Kill the Room" abilities line-of-sight is a bit of a lazy fix.

 

It certainly adds more risk to them, but that doesn't change the fact that they'll still kill most of the room, or are as spammable as they are when players put on the efficiency mods.

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Honored Tenno,

 

Well, we screwed that one up, didn’t we? In our panic to address exploits we’ve rolled out some half-baked changes, and didn’t test them nearly enough. Worse - we didn’t communicate the changes and explain the rationale.

 

We’ve plugged some holes and we’re running out of fingers. I’m sorry you had to see all of this, its quite embarrassing. I’m sure you’re frustrated. I am deeply sorry for messing up your game.

 

Here’s where we’re at:

 

We’re going to do some map fixes AND we’re going to fix a few bugs with line of sight changes and let it ride until we have a cohesive and well communicated set of changes to roll out.

 

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

 

This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in. That’s the short answer to ‘why the hell is DE messing with us’. Homer’s drinking bird should not play the game for you.

 

We will be changing the dreaded map somewhat today… the level team has refused to grant my request of making Viver an insta-kill-lava-death-pit. Instead, spawning will be staggered to help address enemy clumps, but again - ‘everyone within 80 meters dies with keyboard macro’ is a larger issue than any one particular map. I’d be curious what your thoughts are.

 

I know yesterday’s changes have exposed deep frustrations from our Tenno - from Syndicates to mission types, and poetically it all began with our first Warframe: Excalibur. With your voices ringing in our ears we intend to remedy as soon as possible. I look forward to reading your reactions to the next series of hotfixes (I have my asbestos underpants on now).

 

YYY YY   YY YYYYYYY YYY

(-DE_Steve)

 

RonSwansonFace.gif

 

You see, i don't think you still understand why the community is in an uproar.

 

First of all, BEFORE YOU MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES, read this to understand the "birth" of Viver:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/345102-de-doesnt-understand-viver/

 

After all, Viver has been around in its current hyperfarm form for ages, but only started getting used/popular in U15. The post i linked clearly explains the reasons why, with raw math, graphs and concise presentation.

 

 

When Viver was discovered, the community shared the most effective methods to farm it. These methods primarily used Excalibur, Mag and Trinity as the core frames of the setup.

 

You don't really believe that you can sell nerfing those exact 3 frames as something you already planned from before with LoS changes? Not even you buy that. It was an obvious kneejerk reaction to Viver farm and you failed at it, catastrophically. No amount of PR or rewrapping the turd in a different package will fix it.

 

HONESTLY own up to your mistakes and stop thinking your community is stupid. It's just going to make people angrier and cause tons of negative publicity.

 

People are already voting with their wallets and deciding to either stop playing the game completely or simply stop purchasing any kind of plat.

Edited by Yurilica
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This is why I like DE, they dun goofed, but they accept that and work to fix it. This is the kind of stuff you don't get from other devs.

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3BYIJ9X.jpg

 

Oh boy, here we go. It's funny, you talk about how "Homer's Water Bird" shouldn't play the game for us. But here's the thing. I just use a piece of tape and a primary.

 

It's funny that everyone is so accepting of your apology. I for one don't. This is what I see.

 

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Take whatever steps you need to make the game require skill and remain fun.

 

I think the major issue that this whole problem has highlighted is that people were excited to play their Excalibur and Mag again.

 

The vitriol and ire emerged at the prospect of being 'reverted' back to where they were before. Make any changes you guys feel are needed to fix exploits, but everyone needs to have their favorite frame feel 'viable' and fun.

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This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in. That’s the short answer to ‘why the hell is DE messing with us’. Homer’s drinking bird should not play the game for you.

That's exactly what I was hoping to hear. While we are on the subject, is there any plans to make some of the Warframe's kits more internally cohesive to support a specific although not inflexible playstyle? For example Valkyr's kit synergizes well with itself to make a very melee focused playstyle where there is a good chance you will use all 4 of her abilities frequently. I'd like to see something like that be done with some of the other warframes.

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