Jump to content
[DE]Steve

Vivergate: Vent Radioactive Gas Y/n

Recommended Posts

taking down Lephantitis solo with only a Skana?

Why not set up a nice long list of challenges that reward you with rep? Stick them in groups and have them repeatable after the entire group has been completed. 

 

 

roflbot-Bisonyes1.jpg

 

I Would LOVE more challenges! They gnaw at my funny bone and make me complete them. 

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.-we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in. 

AWESOME!

I'll be sharing some thoughts on this once I get some free time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Although I am happy to see there was a statement made, the damage was done, I no longer have the sum of my core members, after this last “FiX” they ultimately rage quite and have gone on to other games LoL WoW Ext… and I am having my deepest fear, am almost totally alone in my guild, I don’t know what to do now, some of them are founders and veteran players, and having started a little while ago I am alone now. A majority of them told me with the loss of the 2 mod slots and now the broken scaling and damaged / nurfed skills, there tired of spending money and having no security to the investment or a say so / choice of options like a vote on what type of skill changes take place to balance things.

Now I have only been here a little while, but something like this happened when we were all playing guildwars and they all quit, never to come back, I don’t want this to be one of thoughts games.  It’s up there with the mass effect and some of my old time offline RPG’s

Please do something, if not to help me to fix things somehow.

Edited by Shadow-Lotus
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's true that "X-ray" AOE can make it seem "trivial". But if we end up with this kind of requirements, which I have no problem with, as long as they make sense, you will end up stuck with several AOE abilities that cannot be affected by LoS because they simply shouldn't. Not because they're "OP", but because it wouldn't make sense, be "logical" or reasonable to subject them to LoS restrictions.

 

Another problem that needs to be addressed, and not 6 months after, if some of our AOE abilities are LoS restricted : ENEMIES. They have to respect the EXACT SAME mechanics. ALL OF THEM. Even bosses. Even "super duper powerful enemies". Aimbot enemies with perfect aim/accuracy while running around like headless chickens have to go (particularly those with hitscan weaponry). Enemies raining down continuous streams of bullet/lasers/whatever on players the nano-second they leave cover with Godly accuracy and reflexes have to go, and so does the enemies' supernatural awareness of players' position at all times. Cover has to be relevant for both the AI and the players if LoS is to be a thing in Warframe. And I have no idea if you have plans for Eximi's auras, but they have to make sense as well in all this.

 

The "syndicate standing" issue should also be a priority. Choosing to tie standing gains to affinity was a HUGE mistake. I'm very sorry, but it was. This has to change, and again, not in 6 months. I don't have any miracle solutions up my sleevies to give you, I wish I had.^^'

 

I understand all this means a LOT of work, trials and errors, and sleepless nights for you guys. But all you have to do is TELL US CLEARLY BEFOREHAND that it's going to be buggy and glitchy as Hek, that weird, frustrating (and sometimes hilarious) things are going to happen, even maybe that the "total reset" switch has to be hit, and that we should turn on our "beta testers mindset" and be ready. We will understand. Just be clear and give us a heads up next time. don't drop that kind of surprise A-bomb without expecting backlash and people losing it on the forums (I did lose it, I gwas sanctioned and I am to blame for it. But so are you dear devs.) because we didn't see that kind of "solution" coming for the Viver grind issue.

 

Thanks for the post DE_Steve, much appreciated.

Edited by Marthrym
  • Upvote 10

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, VIVER IS NOT THE PROBLEM.

The problem is the Syndicate system itself. It's far to difficult to get any large amount of Reputation points reliably, and yet this still hasn't been recognized.

  • Upvote 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

thanks for the post, Steve. it seems like your post is centered around abilities and afk'ing/small maps so i'll reply as such.

 

LoS is not the answer for most abilities.  being a space ninja game having things being affecting within a radius just feels better and more suited for WF.

while some frustrations are geared towards smaller, concentrated maps; that is not all of WF.  

 

being a fan of T4S (as Scott says, the void is/has been 'endgame' for many players) having your skills LoS is suicidal and having things pre 15.2.0 is how gameplay should feel, even if it is exploitable for a small portion of maps.

maybe a change would have (you & your allies) companions constantly 'tag' enemies within your radius to compliment LoS

 

in the end, don't put too much effort on changing Interception/Viver because that is not the root of the issue.

Edited by angrykenji

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

RonSwansonFace.gif

 

You see, i don't think you still understand why the community is in an uproar.

 

First of all, BEFORE YOU MAKE ANY OTHER CHANGES, read this to understand the "birth" of Viver:

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/345102-de-doesnt-understand-viver/

 

After all, Viver has been around in its current hyperfarm form for ages, but only started getting used/popular in U15. The post i linked clearly explains the reasons why, with raw math, graphs and concise presentation.

 

 

When Viver was discovered, the community shared the most effective methods to farm it. These methods primarily used Excalibur, Mag and Trinity as the core frames of the setup.

 

You don't really believe that you can sell nerfing those exact 3 frames as something you already planned from before with LoS changes? Not even you buy that. It was an obvious kneejerk reaction to Viver farm and you failed at it, catastrophically. No amount of PR or rewrapping the turd in a different package will fix it.

 

HONESTLY own up to your mistakes and stop thinking your community is stupid. It's just going to make people angrier and cause tons of negative publicity.

 

People are already voting with their wallets and deciding to either stop playing the game completely or simply stop purchasing any kind of plat.

 

I could not have said it better myself, this post needs to be brought to everyones attention.

  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Nyx's Mind Control still doesn't defend against friendly fire. In addition to that when they are killed the timer isn't reset.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, was a bug for one mission.

Edited by Avicou

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm not happy with any of this at all, take a step back and all you see is every "improvement/ balance" is not even close, for example nerf's to every frame so far through out all the updates (with a few rarely given buffs) and the enemy ai now have aim bot accuracy and more armor/shields/health than WE would even know what to do with, and better scripting to survive almost anything we can throw at them. Then we have intercepts that  are now almost impossible without pro players leading the way or just over powering tactics (which was the start of this wake up call to begin with) and from watching the history of other MMO's / F2P's I see this going down hill from here. Attacking the playerbase who are the only reason this game exists through our own money and time, never ends well. ever.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you for the post, DESteve. I'm sure a lot of the Community appreciates it.

 

http://strawpoll.me/2981456

 

this has been floating around the forums, it shows just how much backlash there is for the Changes.

 

I think that any LoS changes need to be altered quite heavily before being implemented. LoS is very punishing in a lot of Tiles, especially Grineer Tiles. there are so many boxes and small walls and cover for the Grineer that its going to be extraordinarily difficult to use LoS abilities. 

 

if we are going to have LoS based abilities, Eximus Auras need the same LoS changes. 

 

LoS seems like it is going to make abilities hit or miss, some of them are going to be hit very hard, some of them wont change too much. 

 

To me it feels like these changes will certainly slow down game-play. I know I will be slowing down quite a bit when they come into play.

 

things like rhino stomp, the very nature of it is not LoS, as it is the impact of his foot radiating out-wards to deal damage. it should be similar to MP's expansion, but at a higher rate of speed.

 

Crush on the other hand, that is mag lifting enemies and crushing them, that is concentration. that makes sense to be LoS.  

 

Misma? she is coating everything in the area with a spray, it should be LoS.  but it should curve around edges as liquid/gas does. it is not Finite like light, where it can not bend.

 

overload? not LoS at all. it can electrify the ground, the air, the roof, the moisture in the air, everything. 

 

it is all very dependent on the "physics" of the ability.

sound can travel through walls and crates, so none of banshees abilities should be LoS. magnetism (unless it is made of ferrite or super thick) would not be stopped by a wall. so SP should not be LoS. Radial Blind? its light. it should be LoS. Radial Disarm? its supposedly magnetism jaming the firing mechanism of the weapons, so it should not be LoS. those are the questions that need to be asked.

light may not be able to bend however it can reflect so off of walls or armour or water and such. even those that hide behind cover should still be affected as they might be looking at the sides or lookin up which means that they would still see the light and should be blinded. los should still not be given to some and not all this is not a logic based game or if it is meant to be it is well under half assessed

Edited by tris1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well I forgive you. You admit your mistakes and are working to fix them. That's all we asked for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've said it once and I'll say it again. Cooldowns.

 

There's a reason they're so popular. It's an amazing tool to balance powers with.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

 

This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in. That’s the short answer to ‘why the hell is DE messing with us’. Homer’s drinking bird should not play the game for you.

 

I know yesterday’s changes have exposed deep frustrations from our Tenno - from Syndicates to mission types, and poetically it all began with our first Warframe: Excalibur. With your voices ringing in our ears we intend to remedy as soon as possible. I look forward to reading your reactions to the next series of hotfixes (I have my asbestos underpants on now).

 

YYY YY   YY YYYYYYY YYY

(-DE_Steve)

So line of sight is acting like a barrier until energy is fixed? I don't see line of sight being a permanent solution as, if I was dying and I cast my 4th that guy behind the cover could easily kill me because my 4th didn't hit him.

 

...Speaking of syndicates what is your view on syndicate rep gain? has it not changed from last time you talked about syndicates?

Edited by Postal_pat

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Glad to see some info on the topic. Also really happy that you guys at DE recognize that the changs made were a bit of a rushed mistake.

 

I strongly hope that perhaps the changes to the Warframes abilities could be reversed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in. That’s the short answer to ‘why the hell is DE messing with us’. Homer’s drinking bird should not play the game for you."

 

I don't like where this is going...IF you change the whole LoS stuff for all frames you gotta change maps as well otherwise it's no longer skill but impossible to do at all.

I'll only be playing Ash then or build myself a Loki as I won't be bothered with checking if my team is lookin at me when I cast Blessing with Trinity.

Don't fix what's not broken but change what is. I can't seem to think what horrifing changes this could bring. Certain Frames would be unplayable(like Excalibro currently).

LoS is not a nerf, mind you but it is bugged so often at times. I can't blind enemies that could clearly see me and blind some that could in no way see me at all.
just my 2 cents but I don't think you should change all Frames to use LoS without revamping them all at the same time. I for one would NEVER touch my Triny again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Thank you, Steve. I admire that you admitted that you messed up. I would likely never do that and try to defend my actions with some random excuse and blame circumstances. 

 

Regarding what you said, I understand that your first plan of action is to change Viver map to remove the farm capability and then work on frame's LoS and Syndicates. In my opinion, it would be nice if you could focus on Syndicate Rep System first. Removing the ability to acquire rep quickly i.e. Viver Farm, is only going to benefit players who already managed to get their hands on syndicate mods already. This would mean that the other players will have to buy them for high prices while you figure out how to fix the rep system. So it would be nice if you could let people to continue farm till you get a stable system in place. And then when you added newer syndicate mods later on, everyone will be at equal setting and will be running the new/fixed syndicate system.

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You have failed to address one very important question that has plagued me (and probably other players) since this fiasco started:

 

How do you pronounce Viver?

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's all cool.

 

Just make sure we have interesting challenges for syndicate rep instead of mindless killing with ults. Just don't directly tie syndicate rep to murdering at all. That will fix a lot.

Edited by Aure7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From what I can gather on the issue, the main problem is that the rewards you can glean from this sort of AFk spam are actually far greater than those you get from playing the game.

 

the problem is twofold here.

 

Firstly you have a method of play that requires far less interaction from the player, ergo, it is easier to do.

 

Secondly, this method grants far higher rewards than anything else. Even if the rewards it gave were slightly lesser than those given in normal play, it would still be popular due to the lower level of player effort needed.

 

 

The problem extends beyond the map, and farming method, binding syndicate gain to frame affinity, and frame affinity only. Reputation is meant to be a measure of how impressed a syndicate is with you, so why should spamming 4 for 20 minutes impress them more than say taking down Lephantitis solo with only a Skana?

Why not set up a nice long list of challenges that reward you with rep? Stick them in groups and have them repeatable after the entire group has been completed. 

 

 

The other major point here is the problem with powerfarm in general. You can sit there and abuse powers and spawn mechanics to kill everything instantly. It isn't just Viver, other interception missions can be exploited just as easily, hell, two runs on PowerFarm Kiste will max out a weapon.

The best solution I can come up with in regards to this is to give enemies a degree of immunity/resistance to powers upon spawning. Giving enemies a 90% damage reduction from power damage for the first 10 seconds after they spawn would go a long way to curb powerfarming tactics, without having a major impact on the normal game.

 

I hope I am not rambling too much here

 

Better introduce some type of enemy that does that, and is immune to powers itself, some sort of slow, heavy walker for corpus that will need you to shoot weak spots and actually go and take care of it before it can come and wreck your day thoroughly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

the worst thing about canadians......no idea what beaver means in america. ra•di•alˈreɪ di əl(adj.)

  1. arranged or having parts arranged like radii or rays.

    Category: Math

  2. made in the direction of a radius; going from the center outward or from the circumference inward along a radius              ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~beavers man freaking beavers~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The solution is to find a good balance between weapons and powers use cause you can rely just on weapons especially in some mission types and completely making ultimates useless along with already the rest of the powers just kills the game completely.

What needs to be done is revise all powers and make a viable synergy between them and weapons in addition with enemies mechanics which aren't as well in balance with the game play and game types.

At the moment the game is who kills the faster or last longer again by using that 4 spam or endless cc, wins , forced use of covers without a cover mechanic  isn't viable either and in some levels isn't even possible so if you really want that you should work on revising each level(map) and implement a cover system,this is third person game which requires that kind of system is not like first person where you could get by without it in the use of covers.

 

As for syndicates unlink them from the affinity gain and make them their own xp gaining system. 

Edited by -CM-Raven

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Do not use LoS with AoE abilities. You mention homers bird playing the game for you but the same can be said for a variety of frames. Vaubans vortex,every 1/2 minute. Banshee's sound quake, Rhino's stomp, Frost's avalanche, etc. They can all be macro'd and abused. Excal and Mag are no different. Let AoE live. Change the map, add vents to particular spots, add conductive water (like in the direlects). Add a hard cap on the range of abilities, add diminishing returns on power scaling of abilities. Do not apply LoS to abilities if you don't intend to add LoS to other abilities as well.

Edited by Luxifer
  • Upvote 7

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But again, as people have pointed out, the Syndicate system is bland and boring. Plus, it is far too much time spent doing what we have been doing for months before with no change in gameplay. If Syndicates were interesting factions to feel connected to instead of a another grind wall, Viver would not have been utilized as it was.

  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's understandable if you want to give the game an additional measure of skill. However, this should not be limited to adding line-of-sight to abilities. You need to include tangible rewards for skillful gameplay. More frame synergy, more utility for frame abilities, increased affinity gain for killing an enemy with a headshot, or for killing several enemies with a single shot/ability/barrel explosion/whatever (expand on the "bonus mission" mechanic and make these "achievements" constantly enabled).

Also, most areas in the game are not built with LoS abilities in mind. If you're going to give LoS to every AoE ability, since you most likely won't be redesigning 80% or more of the game areas, then you'll have to make additional changes to said abilities to compensate for the loss of functionality. Otherwise, what's the point of using a "nuke" that will clear all of 5 or 6 enemies standing in a hallway when there are 30 spread in the surrounding rooms? It will only result in an even greater focus on overpowered weapons instead of what makes this game unique: the warframes' power.

 

And you still need to address the issues caused by syndicate reputation mechanics. First of all the immense requirements, with no rewards for your veteran player's previous effort. And second, reputation gained being tied directly, solely, and without bars to affinity gain, resulting in every non-endless mission being ridiculously sub-par for gaining reputation, and therefore reducing the variety of viable missions to this end.

My propositions are these:

·  Add an end-of-mission reputation gain that scales to enemy level, to every mission type.

·  For endless missions, scale it to number of waves completed as well to not encourage everyone leaving on wave 5.

·  Introduce diminishing rewards to exp-tied rep gains so killing 2000 weak enemies doesn't give 10 times as much rep as killing 200, since this currently only encourages Viver-style farming; that is, perpetually roflstomping the greatest amount of weak enemies you can find should not be the most viable tactic.

·  Introduce a mastery-rank dependant reputation multiplier, which will not only cut your veteran players some slack but also give everyone a reason to work towards increasing their mastery.

  • Upvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...