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[DE]Steve

Vivergate: Vent Radioactive Gas Y/n

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And so, LoS is official now. For the sake of the balance and gameplay, of course.

 

Goodbye, my shiny powers. Hello, my old Boltor Prime.

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Glad to see some info on the topic. Also really happy that you guys at DE recognize that the changs made were a bit of a rushed mistake.

 

I strongly hope that perhaps the changes to the Warframes abilities could be reversed.

 

This.

 

If you're gonna make map adjustments, at least revert the warframe abilities back. It's pretty clear these specific abilities got hit while others doing more or less the same thing didn't in spite of people spam running Viver mashing the hotkeys for hours/days.

 

I don't want to hear about the "this was intentional but arrived at a bad time" stuff I've been silently reading on the forum. If it was intentional, I clearly seen a LOT of other abilities getting the same treatment in just 1 update.

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Please give mag back, even if you tone her down a little, the aoe Shield detonation and party shield restore is alot of fun, and balance wise it only works on one faction.

She only became an issue because of the one map.

 

Sadly the ultimate spam issue seems to be based around trinity energy feed..... poor trinity.... 

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Better introduce some type of enemy that does that, and is immune to powers itself, some sort of slow, heavy walker for corpus that will need you to shoot weak spots and actually go and take care of it before it can come and wreck your day thoroughly.

A single enemy immune to power damage/powers in general wouldn't fix the problem, sure it would help, but then again, it isn't hard to have one non-afk guy to shoot stuff.

 

I'd actually love to see something similar to Phantoms in this game, they made for interesting play.

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Line Of Sight has never been an issue up until the release of Syndicates and the discovery of Viver.

If you have considered reworking Warframes with the implementation of the LoS system regardless then this is an extremely unfortunate coincidence.

However it is painfully apparent to everyone evolved of the reactionary "band-aid" hotfix release last night.

 

While there may not be one clear and agreed upon solution to AFK Players or the "Homer's Bird" style of playing, which is eventually present in many games, please reconsider the LoS mechanic in its entirety. That is, do not in the first place!

 

I have read rational arguments against this, that being that almost no tile-set or map was built with LoS in mind for offensive use.

The problem is the root of the Reputation system acquirement! There are many rationally sound solutions many other players have suggested these past one or two days. Everything from having set missions with set amount of reputation, to rep being tied to Mastery rank and so forth!

 

The nerfing of Warframes, and LoS is an unnecessary restriction to otherwise fun and empowering characters! Nerfing Warframes and mission nodes would be the equivalent to putting tape over a flu-ridden person's mouth to prevent them from coughing, but not curing their flu in the first place!

 

Please keep in mind what you as DE have told us so long ago in the form of Dev Diaries, that the point of playing these fantasy, space ninjas is to have the player feel powerful and superior! Besides these nerfs, enemies having 100% accuracy, and nearly the same level of Parkour skills, the distance between mortal and Tenno is drawing narrower. The only thing keeping us above the enemy are Warframe abilities, please do not add Line of Sight when there are so many other Warframe issues to be examined!

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What if you make it so that purchasing higher-ranked syndicate sigils increases the earned reputation each mission? But, to preserve the ability to customize to your heart's content, you don't have to necessarily wear the sigil. All you have to do is to unlock it to gain the bonus, then you can wear whatever syndicate sigil you want. The catch is, the bonus reputation can only be earned for the syndicate whose sigil you are wearing.

 

For example: you can't wear an Arbiter's of Hexus sigil and still gain the boost for New Loka reputation. The only bonus that would apply would  be for the Arbiters of Hexus.

 

This way, there's a real reason to unlock sigils. The sigils can still be used to customize without limiting people's options. And the reputation system gains a more efficient way to grind instead of the current formula.

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I just gotta say, Steve you are the man.

 

I'm sure it took guts to admit the mistake. /salute

Edited by Dseaver
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Question: why you don't make geting syndicats points only on special mission without defense/survivor/interception? Аnd all this nerf would not have occurred. -_-

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… the level team has refused to grant my request of making Viver an insta-kill-lava-death-pit.

 

You made my day, Steve! LOL!

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Trying to put Skill into the game? Viver did require a Skilled group to pull off the farming that was being done. It wasn't just one move been slammed it was four moves trinity was the battery, Mag was softening them up, and Excalibur cleaned up the scraps. Excablur was actually fun to play so much i formad him for the first time and he was my first frame, now you have to ask yourself WTF. So nerfing him while he was just getting the love he deserved. now to I loved limbo, but he take a high level of skill to play and very situational. Limbo actually became useful by keeping enemies from hitting the team and could boost power Regen. I loved limbo being able to move around fearless and hop out of the rift when i wanted to pick up loot. Hop in to get my teammates up without fear, Grab those hard to reach interception points. Then being able to boost power was not something easy to set up it took leveling up, a few maxed mods to get to that level so we get punished for putting in time money and energy for a game we obviously love to be able to find a "LootCave" so quickly and work with other Tenno to enjoy the ridiculous rep farming not only for the titles, but what i need to get just that first augmentation mod.

 

I just want to point out in the last two weeks I have seen more people go out of their way to play and help other Tenno to farm in both Viver and Sechura plus others to farm. So yes we were eager to get those delicious syndicate rewards, but instead of focusing on the speed of players reaching their chosen goal you should also see the amount of players that started to bond under this one thing,  Archwing is stupid hard to get mods and leveling up right now and nobody plays so you do not get any help without building a team. Still nobody is that eager to play either

 

i liked this game because the grind was fun and the rewards were obtainable in a reasonable time unlike other games where it would take you months to get one armor.  I am a veteran player the things that have reward for me are limited, but making me play stuff i have been playing already for very little in return is getting old and starting to make love the "loving feeling" You want to add more skill add more vault type mission add scavenger mission that make a player hunt stuff. Add missions that make us split into teams in the same level to reach an objective. Add some ridiculous multitier bosses. How about some 6 or 8 Tenno squads? Its a war right? We are here to set things right? Screwing with our powers is never going to end well.

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Removing AoE / Radial abilities will simply make this game over the shoulder CoD. By placing strict limits on what we can find useful, you remove all possibilities for creativity and self challenge. Warframe is space magic, not super serious realistic gun simulator 2014. Allow space magic logic to be the driving force in the game, not real world physics.

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every 1 is talking about the excal changes cause he goes from nerf to buff and nerf again... what about trin? how more will u pin her to the ground? maybe remove her at all or change her abilities!
i saw some good ideas in the comments Rep farm is the main reason why this is happening. Most people before Syndicate rep farm, didnt even think to farm viver this way most of them did some diffrent mission like ODD to level their weapons and forma stuff.

plus the 50 max active mods is kinda crappy too that was for me an other unsuccessfull atempt to stop viver farm and it kinda destroys survival as it is today.

nerfing isnt the way you like nor the one we prefer.

are u gonna nerf saryn too next?

what about oberon will hist ulti get a LOS nerf as well?

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Well, I would've liked that the source of the problem was explored, but we are stuck on Viver, which is not the source of the problem. The problem isn't the level, it's reputation. Fixing a single node without changes to reputation will only make people move to a different node, and then what are you going to do? In the end you are only avoiding the main problem, wasting resources, make people mad and half-assedly nerf everything (sorry about the term, but I had to).

 

LOS on radial blind? Well, okay, after all the ability is all about a flashing light from a single point, it's okay.

LOS on energy based abilities? It's really silly, but this is where things get complicated, propagation, which is a, well, more realistic approach, and not as crippling as LOS (only slightly though), but I guess that's asking too much, since you'd need to define how propagation would work (and differently of LOS) and then code it.

Also note that with LOS you are making mods like the range ones rather situational, because the level design in Warframe ends up blocking your vision all the time with obstacles and non straight corridors, and there aren't many open spaces (and the ones that do exist, are filled with obstacles).

 

 

I don't mind that abilities stop being press X key to kill everyone in 60 meter radius, but I don't think LOS is the way to go.

 

 

Edit: Again, Syndicates rewards aren't the problem, how SLOW it is to get ANYWHERE is the problem. I play this everyday, sure, not all day (you shouldn't expect people to do so), and how far I am? 2 Syndicates at rank 1 and 1 syndicate at rank 2. That's about it, since they were added that's how far I got, because getting 10~50 per mission (which can even last more than 10 minutes) that isn't endless something when I get 5k for the first rank, 22k for the second and even more for higher ranks isn't that much.

But right, I only been to Viver a few times and I'm not running endless something for hours, and hours, and hours, so I don't deserve to get any rewards. (Non endless missions have really, really crappy rewards for completion, you really should put reputation to good use in there, those credits aren't enough.)

Edited by Sorrow0110
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Still no comment on reputation needs? They're a bigger grind than acquiring Mastery rank 18.

 

^ this.

 

Vivergate was a SYMPTOM!

 

A Symptome brought by SYNDACATES!

 

THERE IS WHERE U HAVE TO TRULY ACT!

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A single enemy immune to power damage/powers in general wouldn't fix the problem, sure it would help, but then again, it isn't hard to have one non-afk guy to shoot stuff.

 

I'd actually love to see something similar to Phantoms in this game, they made for interesting play.

 

I don't mean single immune enemy. I mean single immune enemy that spreads around a resistance field that makes the crowd it spawns in heavily resistant to the abilities. So, if you don't go out and don't kill it quickly, it's going to bring in the whole crowd with it, and they're going to have plenty of health left and plenty of guns to show you mistakes of your way. Bonus points for giving it a slowly charging dispel. (like, something that you could reasonably prevent).

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(Ninja edit after reading thread)

 

Syndicate Standing is absolutely under the surgical laser. It's screaming.

 

With abilities, again, things are not staying as they are currently - as I said above *until we have a cohesive set of changes* We're going to try to entangle this and do it once without driving like my grandma on an icy road.

 

Syndicates will get cooler over time. It was some character and opposition. It is not a 'whole new way to play' and never was pitched as such. It's a layer, a purpose, to the existing and future game-modes we are adding.

 

Quoting for visibility, the OP has been edited.

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I can understand wishing to add more skill to the game, I am completely behind that, but it's frames that scale worst damage wise, why are you nerfing the frames, and leaving the weps (such as boltor prime) untouched?

 

I think I have an idea for the Los debacle, how about just reduced damage/effectiveness of non Los Aoe abilities (activating and aoe without Los on a target) and then boosting damage and effectiveness over what it is if you have Los on the intended victim. Maybe with an in between if you can vaguely see enemies where it does current damage levels.

This way you don't lose aoe, and you get rewarded with more power if you don't play lazy.

Edited by MrNonApplicable
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^ this.

 

Vivergate was a SYMPTOM!

 

A Symptome brought by SYNDACATES!

 

THERE IS WHERE U HAVE TO TRULY ACT!

 

Yep, ninja edited my original post...

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Don't worry.

 

I was there during the ill-fated and short-lived Stamina 2.0. I was there during the epilepsy-inducing introduction of the Arc Traps.

 

I know you are reasonable people and would not leave things this badly and make changes... eventually, once enough *cough* "feedback" has been given from the players :)

 

Once you have a more reasonable backdrop (once the Viver is once and for all fixed) to judge the LOS changes against, I've no doubt you will see how over the top the LOS changes are - as the map is the problem, not the ultimates.

 

We've never had any problem with how the ultimates worked until you introduced Syndicate Rep Grind after all. Something to keep in mind, perhaps.

^ This. 

I would suggest you rework the reputation gain system. Even if you kill Viver, we will just go Sechura with fast Nova Booben and mass killing weapons/frames. That does not mean that every frame/weapon/map needs to be nerfed to ground. 

Excalibur wise, before his buffs his Javelin Problem was, objects could block javelins and prevent enemies from being hit. Now you basically returned it. In addition to all, the way Viver was played required coordinated and high rank players so it was not as much of an exploit as skill and equipment test for us along with reputation gain.

Mag's Shield Polarise change makes no sence because Pull and Crush still dont get blocked by walls/object therefor it also has no logic.

Trinity's energy Vampire is a Pulse right, how can pulse be based on line of sight?

I suggest next things:

1)Return Excalibur Trinity and Mag to prior 15.2 state

2)Dont make reputation be based on affinity gained

3)Quests must give more xp

4)missions should have fixed reputation gain + some bonus(based on Mastery rank and enemies killed and their level maybe?) or in case of endless missions like 50+100+150+250 as an example on every time reward is recieved and number is based on difficulty and enemy level.

Q: What was 50 mod cap based on?

Edited by Zarlockk
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Yep, ninja edited my original post...

spaceninja edit it, like a true Tenno!

 

ontopic: CAN I HAZ MY EVERYTHINGKILLIN EXCALIBURGER BACK? PLZ? PRETTY PLZ?

Edited by elphamale

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Well, i got an idea with general Syndicate state in game which allows to expand Lore (especially, Syndicate's in-game point), be more logical and probably will bring now unpopular missions back to our game. I'm sure it was suggested many times before.

 

Unfortunately, there's no RP numbers and formulas, but i've seen a great feedback with numbers, formulas & explanation! Check it out, guys!

 

And here's an idea (apologize for my mistakes, here's 1am already, heh). A simple example with Syndicates discription. R-roll out.
After Dark Sectors and Syndicate release most of the game-missions became very unpopular except Defenses, MDs and Interceptions. So why not just make RP-gain depending on every preferable for Syndicate mission type, instead of endless Interception?

You still need to wear Sigil of your chosen Syndicate, but -- if you doing a certain missions (preferable ones for chosen Syndicate) you will get an RP-multiplier (x1.5 or x2 for example). It's still will be a grind, but will make more sense, lore and less complaints.

 

And if you're sided with the Perrin (Instead these merchants search for ways to exercise their trade without instigating violence) you don't need to do Exterminate and killing poor AI guys on their watch anymore. Well, almost (in Survival case -- since we [Tenno] are distracting enemies during Survivals while ops mining info & loot it sounds fair enough).

 

Here's a preferable missions for each Syndicate based on their description and purposes:

 

Steel Meridian

Led by a battle-hardened Grineer deserter, the Steel Meridian fight a guerilla war against a vast enemy. They are sworn protectors of what little remains of the colonies.

The Grineer are not often seen as valorous individuals, but time and again members of their leadership have displayed a certain code of honor. Members of Steel Meridian set aside their former allegiances to defend those who cannot defend themselves.

You will get additional RPs by completing following missions:

Rescue

Defense (including Defender's side during Invasions)

Sabotage

Hive

Arbiters of Hexis

The dogmatic Arbiters seek a truth through discipline and practice. They reject the "Tenno as Warrior" mythology - a lie constructed to limit their potential.

The Arbiters of Hexis exemplify a burning passion to search for the truth of Tenno ability, composed with the knowledge that Tenno are far greater than even their shattered history suggests.

You will get additional RPs by completing following missions:

Excavation

Survival

Void / Derelict Void missions

Conclave(???)

Cephalon Suda

A vast consciousness watching with a curious eye. Seemingly devoid of emotion Suda's thirst for knowledge and abhorrence of destruction can only be described as passionate.

With such powerful technology rooted in the past the hunt for knowledge guides every force in the Solar System. At a time where information holds so much power Cephalon Suda, a consciousness seemingly devoid of emotion, follows a curious hunger to learn all she can.

You will get additional RPs by completing following missions:

Spy

Capture

Interception

Mobile Defense

The Perrin Sequence

A collective of brilliant and powerful merchants, splintered from the Corpus. Their goal is to restore order by bringing prosperity and direction to the violent world they study.

Following their own doctrine to achieve Profit, The Perrin Sequence have turned away from the Corpus ideology that conflict must be capitalized upon. Instead these merchants search for ways to exercise their trade without instigating violence.

You will get additional RPs by completing following missions:

Spy

Hijack

Survival

Red Veil

The Red Veil see corruption all around them. They are honor-bound to heal the system through a great and violent purge. No cost too great, no blood too precious.

Change is sudden, violent, and a necessary force to ensure the system can return to a state of balance. Red Veil see themselves as merely the instrument of this change.

You will get additional RPs by completing following missions:

Archwing

Deception

Exterminate

Assassination

New Loka

Only through restoration of a pure humanity and the repopulation of Earth can the conflict end. The New Loka are worshippers of the human form and Earth, before its corruption.

No matter how far we reach into the stars New Loka knows it is Earth that has always been our home. Turning away from genetic tampering that has twisted the Grineer and the technological meddling that has corrupted Earth it is New Loka that fights for the repopulation of a world once abandoned.

You will get additional RPs by completing following missions:

Exterminate

Sabotage (Earth location)

Excavation (Earth location)

Hive (to prevent their Invasion)

 

Of course, it needs more polish, but still...

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Sad to see nerfs on a frame because of a single map. But the Syndicate rewards are just so gated that people WILL try to optimize the way the farm the points. You can not call it an exploit imo. Normal play gains almost no rewards its like gaining a penny every time while the first reward is locked behind a million.

 

This is a game of farming I knew that for a long time. but Syndicates is beyond farming for the average player they are just locked away and only people who OPTIMIZE for farming or have the platinum to pay those people.

 

This problem did not start with the mechanics behind a skill or the farming of the map. but with how locked away the content is on the syndicates. The skills and the map were just the most optimized way to them.

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(Ninja edit after reading thread)

 

Syndicate Standing is absolutely under the surgical laser. It's screaming.

 

With abilities, again, things are not staying as they are currently - as I said above *until we have a cohesive set of changes* We're going to try to entangle this and do it once without driving like my grandma on an icy road.

 

Syndicates will get cooler over time. It was some character and opposition. It is not a 'whole new way to play' and never was pitched as such. It's a layer, a purpose, to the existing and future game-modes we are adding.

 

 

Specify.

Do not use metaphors. Specify.

 

Until you have a cohesive set of changes, does that mean you will undo the nerfs on Mag and Excalibur to not make them useless in high level content anymore?

 

Because that's what you did. You nerfed the tools to harvest a farm, but you didn't touch the farm.

Nerfing the tools crippled them in THE ENTIRE GAME, not just on one specific farming spot.

 

Attaching LoS mechanics to 2 Warframes core abilities literally gimps them because the current LoS system is extremely inconsistent.

 

If you really want to follow the route you're preaching, undo the LoS nerfs on Mag and Excal, then work on improving the overall LoS system through internal testing and ONLY THEN start making changes to actual Warframe abilities.

 

Because, if you go in any other order, you leave your player base with gimped frames that you essentially just admitted you gimped for absolutely nothing because LoS doesn't even work properly.

 

EDIT:

 

The changes to Interception mechanics also had a much bigger impact IN THE ENTIRE GAME than you thought.

 

Uranus Archwing Interception is downright stupidly hard now, stressful and cheap.

Global Interception difficulty has been raised significantly.

 

And that's with a change that had absolutely NO EFFECT on Viver farming. A change that was done for nothing.

 

THIS is Viver in 15.2: 

 

Still the same.

Edited by Yurilica
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I'd like to simply put something into this:

 

Delete Viver, and un-nerf the Warframes from the previous patch.

 

If people rage against me against this, I don't give a darn. "Press 4" for hours is just simply unfun to begin with.

 

It's normally unfair to lose the abilities of other Warframes specifically just to remove the exploit on a single map. It simply nerfs the utility overall to all maps in the process.

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What makes me sad the most is, the people who started complaining about Viver are the ones that started this whole riot, what is the difference between a Sechura or a Viver rep/xp run? I know DE will fix this as they always do, you should stop complaining and just be having fun and ignore all the negative activities. Just enjoy yourselfs playing this great "free to play" game.

Edited by LunskEE
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