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[DE]Steve

Vivergate: Vent Radioactive Gas Y/n

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So in the future I'll just totally ignore ALL Warframe abilities and solely rely on my Boltor Prime? Again: Do you guys even play your own game?

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‘everyone within 80 meters dies with keyboard macro’ is a larger issue than any one particular map. I’d be curious what your thoughts are.

 

I agree. I always felt like the game would work better if the most powerful abilities had cooldowns to keep us from spamming and to stimulate us into having a more tactical approach to encounters with enemies. However, changing this particular aspect of the game will also force you to tweak many other aspects of the game (the enemies, for example). If the dev team is prepared to take that on such a massive task, then I'm prepared to deal with the nerfs, bugs and changes that will come as a result.

 

But whatever the dev team decides to do won't change the fact that communication is of utmost importance. It can keep your players from feeling frustrated and it can also keep you from wasting precious time and resources on unnecessary things. Everyone benefits from it.

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It's cool that DE is working on stopping the press-4-to-win strategy.

 

BUT

 

But be careful about those nerf bats, learn with history; Ultima Online, nerfed so much their game, that they killed it, and that is also were the word "nerf" comes from.

Edited by 7grims
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@Steve I agree the drinking bird was a problem, but how long has the community been asking you guys to fix the AFK problem? As I posted in another thread, Vivar was never an exploit, players found a tactical was of achieving a goal by team coordination, if you go in and don't have synergy your team will be butchered, I know it has happened to me and I'm sure others as well. I'm sure your well aware none of the nerfing really made LOS sense being energy based, but I won't go into that because it is common sense, but I would like to point you to a excellent post that gives great ways of fixing the rep system which I think if you would have read before you would have been able to avoid all this. In regards to how you all handled this, and I say this with the greatest respect for you all, was abysmal. Here is the post;

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/345056-syndicate-points-are-the-issue-this-is-how-i-would-fix-it/

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Steve, I appreciate the honesty however I think that whilst this seems to be a genuine move there is another issue that's come from this.  Consider all the platinum that me and many others have spent improving our warframes and for what?  So the abilities that make them great are taken away.  I honestly believe that if you want to alter a warframe however you like, then we should have the ability to get a refund on all the platinum we have invested into said warframes.

 

This wouldn't be too hard to add into the game... simply put :

 

-  Warframe Dev Team changed how an ability on Mag works as an example

 

-  A button temporarily appears ONLY for those who currently own Mag [Refund Platinum]

 

-  If you choose to use this button, all platinum is refunded including any platinum that was used to purchase the warframe or rush it's production.  Of cause this leaves you without that warframe so if you want to get it again that's the on the individual that decided they wanted the refund.

 

 

To me this seems fair and reasonable as we can't possibly be expected to wear changes that (in this case) put the nail in the coffin of our beloved frames we have invested so much time and money into.

 

I know back in the day we were all given a 1 time full platinum refund (not back to money but just to platinum which is fine by me) so if you are still making such big changes to frames then it seems unreasonable to expect those supporting the game and investing and testing things out to wear the brunt of your decisions without the opportunity to re-invest that platinum into a different frame they may preference since changes were made to the one they had been using.

Edited by Jax_Cavalera

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Honestly reputation should be a mission reward, scaling with difficulty (and certainly not awarding as little as you can get on high level planets because it's not an endless mission). Sure, it will still be farmable, farming isn't a problem (else you wouldn't see games made completely around farming) when you are playing the game. If the farmable place is an Extermination mission or a capture mission (capture would be broken actually), people wouldn't be sitting pressing 4 to kill everyone without moving and would be playing the game anyway, which is what reputation should promote.

 

Mag could use a rework or buff actually, at this point, even her ultimate is the saddest thing. Oberon and Excal still have things going for them with added effects, but Mag's crush does no effects, not even knockdown or stun, just stops the enemy movement during the animation, and after it finishes, if it didn't kill every enemy (which at higher levels, it doesn't) the enemy will fall on it's feet and might as well kill you instead.

Edited by Sorrow0110
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For me the nerfs are bad, but they are not the point that makes me so disappointed.

 

For me it shows, that the real problem, is no Problem for, you DE, but an intended game mechanic: the meaningless and non challenging grinding.

Grinding is ok, but meaningless grinding without any challenges makes a good game to a bad one.

Syndicates were a opportunity to make grinding a bit meaningful and a bit challenging, but you install just another grind wall. Some players used their heavy grinded equipment to break a really small hole in that grind wall. Instead of thinking about the core of the problem you just fight against the symptome and get more things bad. All these grind walls and new shiny items that we get each patch, just covering the lack of meaningful lore and challenging gameplay.

 

I know you have to earn money. And maybe some players will be motivated by grind walls to spend money so that will ease the pain. For me that will not work. I had spend some money in Warframe because it brought me fun and not because of frustration.

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Syndicates will get cooler over time. It was some character and opposition. It is not a 'whole new way to play' and never was pitched as such. It's a layer, a purpose, to the existing and future game-modes we are adding.

But they do need some kind of activity if they are still 'endgame' though. Back ended rewards, very low levels of rep gain per mission, these are all passive qualities. For most players those weapon mods and Warframe mods are The point to syndicates, not the keys, not the sigils. An endgame system needs to be active, it needs to have a way to focus on its progression. That is why people flocked to Viver, that is why endgamers go for PvP in Dark Sectors or for farming prime parts. 

Farming prime parts wasn't at all a new system, but it was an active one, one that could be focused on uniquely from just running any old mission. It felt different, even though it wasn't.

 

Edited by LukeAura
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I'm afraid this is just Corrupted Mods coming back to haunt you.

Adding those, increased massively the possible parameters of abilities, adding greater extremes which makes balance almost impossible.

 

Steve, you said it yourself "Everyone within 80 metres dies".

How do you counter that? When many frames can pop these for 25 energy with no downside.

Min maxing and Corrupted Mods are a problem because you can do so without a downside if you focus on specific skills.

 

Every skill needs to be affected by range, power and duration, or there will always be something like this round the corner.

 

I think you need to change the rep mechanic to be based on mission type / waves / time and enemy levels, as already mentioned.

We can't abuse 30 minutes in survival, or 30 waves in defence, but we can abuse infinite spawns when rep is based on affinity.

 

Changing the rep mechanic could fix Viver, but it won't fix "Homer's drinking bird" syndrome.

That will require a complete rework of almost every skill, or dare I say it, rebalancing of Corrupted Mods.

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los would be fine if it actaully worked properly and was applied to all frames equally not just using it as a nerf bat on random frames

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If you're going to "make syndicates cooler over time" add another rank then and reduce costs to get to max rank now,1 reactor and a day of viver(or an entire week of nonstop grinding of normal missions) so that i get an RNG version of lifestrike on a mastery rank 0 weapon?

 

Definitely ABSOLUTELY not worth it no matter what you say

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X-ray ultimates are *the* powerfantasy. Period.

Nerfing them to LoS requires you to change your LoS mechanic in so many ways. For example, enemies that hide behind cover but I've seen them before *should* get hit by them.

You never. Never. Never. had a problem with ability spamming - why else have the possibility to reduce energy costs so immensely with the mods, or have stuff like Rhinos stomp, have stuff like Mags Shield Polarize in the first place?

You're doing a 180 way too late in the games lifespan.

You're not supposed to balance this for your enjoyment, but for the players. Nerfing stuff because "Oh, they are breaking our systems!" is the WRONG, the @(*()$ goddamn wrong answer. (Did I mention, F*** "bad language" filters? So NA-esque, other cultures have no trouble with swearing in a game for people over the age of 17)

You annoyed me. Enough to come to the official forums, to listen to your PR-"CALM DOWN"-nonsense.

I'm not having it - reverse the patch.

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Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

 

This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in. That’s the short answer to ‘why the hell is DE messing with us’. Homer’s drinking bird should not play the game for you.

 

Funny that you point out the "press 4 to win" ultimates when the last two abilities you restriced in a hurry where the 2s. Utility abilities doing what damage abilities can't.

 

However, are you aware that you essentialy helped creating that loophole over a year ago with the introduction of the (very helpfull please don't nerf) team energy restore items?

 

"No Steve, YOU are the loophole!" And then Steve was a loophole.

 

The question now is, where will those "line of sight" changes end? At a certain point being exposed to enemies directly can speak insta death because of their damage and insane accurancy.

So how nice is it that you can disarm/stun/blind a squad of enemies while behind a protective wall, so you have a chance to shoot at them without being made into swiss cheese (does cheese still exist in the time of Warframe?) the moment you stand in the door.

 

Which means that when you restrict the functionality of certain abilities you must also consider the strength of enemies they can no longer balance out.

Edited by Othergrunty
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As I said in the 15.2.0 original post:

 

When one part inside of a machine isn't working, you fix the part, not change the properties of the machine around the part. You end up wasting time and resources by reworking the machine. Just repair the part, or replace it.

 

When the charger for your phone stops working, what do you do? The answer isn't to stop using your phone. Get a new charger.

 

DE, you essentially screwed over a ton of your playerbase. One map was letting people progress more than you like? Erase the map. Of course, that only solves one problem. The main problem and the reason the map/frames became an issue was the Rep System. As Mogamu said, the Reputation System should not be based on XP gain, but on missions and achievement completion. 

 

I hope you guys learnt not to throw out an update so quickly. U15+15.2 should give an overall example of this. Archwing was rushed and, despite what a lot of people say, it doesn't work well. As you said Steve, 15.2 was also rushed.

 

The Community would rather have content that is fully ready and late than content that is half-baked, possibly broken as hell, and early.

 

My advice is slow down and think about what you're doing.

 

Edit: 

Edited by CoRRh
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Woo some type of response that seems a little insulting. Does not fix the fact you guys broke 3 warframes and a game type because of your broken rep grind. So you are going to punish starter frames, trinity, and aoe frames in the future. That is a little bit over reacting. Play the game a little bit sounds like a good idea for me. Go do a t3/t4 anything without using aoes. Sure it is fun, but it can take awhile. Awhile some people don't have.

 

As pointed out time and time again in the thread last night you guys didn't even address the problem and instead nerfed and nerfed. Here is what you do make the map larger, cut the eximus spawns, or cut spawns period. Increase overall rep gained by x10 or heck even x5. There are some grind missions I do that only give me like 30 points for 5 minutes of work.

 

Line of sight is going to be my next jab. O believe some abilities should have line of sight, but not Mag's or the redone radial javelin. You give Excalibur a new shiny toy and take it away 3 weeks later, he was finally useful again. Now Mag uses magnets and idk about you I have seen them go through some pretty thick walls. I can imagine sound not going through spaceship walls (it does on here), I can't imagine why Loki's radial disarm goes through walls, Nova's MP is molecules it can do damn near anything, Saryn's Misama is a virus and if a kid sneezes in a school everyone gets sick, and Rhino Stomp is an earthquake no amount of walls saves you from that. These were just a few examples I am sure there are more (Hydroid, Limbo, Zephyr, and etc).

 

Interception is the next and last stick I wish to cover. You guys made uranus intercept so much harder now. I like that you have to cap them now, but I don't like that the enemy has already captured them all. It's hard enough to get to a base 1500m away from spawn let alone the ones 5500m away. Not to mention I have seen one enemy tethered to two bases behind a meteor. Revert it back to how it was, but I guess make some tweeks I mean not everyone is exploiting it (actually a small fraction was bugging).

 

Now us as players gave you guys a hard time about this last night on these forums, reddit, and 4chan, but it just goes to show we care about this game. Some of us have put a lot of time and money into this game and any major change like this impacts not only the veterans, but also the new peeps. I mean if I had just started a week ago with excalibur and I used his 4 I'd be in love. Please think a bit harder before acting next time chaps and I'll see you guys in game tomorrow.

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First off: I have every confidence that the map, the mission, and the frames affected will all turn out in the end to be handled in a satisfactory way

 

However...

 

I would like to point out something that really irritates me at the moment, which is that syndicate standing across players is wildly out of whack now.  You have some people who exploited the hell out of Viver and have maxed out their rep with multiple syndicates and are now in the process of trading with eachother to round out their collection... and then you have ordinary players who are probably working through rank 2 or 3 now if they are doing it legit.  I hit rank 4 yesterday in a single syndicate, and that was after buying a 1 week booster and playing my butt off... and I'm still days away from being able to get my first syndicate mod.

 

Basically, there's a huge gap between people who exploited to get everything and those of us who didn't.  It's a bad feeling. Is there any reward for taking the moral high road? Or should we just exploit the pants off anything we find as quickly and relentlessly as possible, because if we miss our opportunity to exploit and get left behind as a result, too bad so sad?

Edited by Momaw
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I hope you will do well on those "cohesive changes".

Because this is not the first time Trinity got nerfed beyond the grave.

Maybe viver was an exploit, but to make Energy Vampire useless to anyonee who is not looking into the corridor or room when you are on a mission, it makes her almost useless as a support character.

Trinity has been my favourite for a long time, and she deserves better then to be crippled over some exploit game type wich was in one specific mission.

It was her only one good skill, but now we can't even properly do a defense anymore. These changes are way too radical and an insult to players that actually played the game with Trinity, instead of a macro on an interception level.

 

I have swallowed many changes made to Trinity for the sake of "Balance" but this is more then I can take. After Blessing was made almost useless, her second best ability now makes her completely redundant. What a terrible and poor choice to just destroy a Warframe skill for the sake of stopping an energy loop exploit.

 

A better solution was to remove Corpus Ship Defense Map from possible arena's altogether, and just make it another map. Although I am not here to discuss what a better solution might have been, because the changes are already applied.

 

 

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I don't know what to expect from this statement. I will be looking forward to seeing what this will lead to.

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I'd have to say, it seems pretty weird to nerf a warframe because somebody found out how to exploit a map. Why not just fix the map instead of changing this whole Line of Sight thing? Its clear most of the community doesn't enjoy it, and I cant say I do either... I remember one suggestion being that higher syndicate sigils gave you higher standing, and to me that sounds about the best bet. I really appose the newest update and hope that it can be changed.

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I still don't agree with the nerfs. Mostly because they haven't/wont fix anything. The real issue here is the syndicate reputation system. Nerfing our beloved Trinity, Mag and Excalibro's abilities only caused us to put them on the dusty shelf to be replaced with others.

 

Do you get it? Abilities aren't the issue. Viver isn't the issue.

 

The reputation system is the issue here.

This.

 

Right now, you can go check on Viver, there's Ashes, Saryns, Frosts doing the same that Excalibur's, Trinities and Mags did before the nerfs... It's definitely NOT the abilities (though I would be OK with a very little nerf on range for this warframes).

 

I see syndicates as an improvement to the game, a unique addition, very different from the majority of other games endgames. However, I'm afraid the reputation system need some changes:

 

- We have unlockable achievements, why not giving X rp for unlocking?

- Completing all the nodes feels unrewarded, maybe some rp too?

- Scanning all...?

 

- We have Dark sectors conflicts and conclaves, maybe you can implement reputation system here too? (though this one can be exploited, i guess...)

 

- Survivals, Interceptions, Defenses, Captures, Sabotages, etc... Why not implementing a reputation system, in which is not about how much you kill, but the way you do it, and the way you play? 

 

for example:

Killing bosses in nightmare mode.

Being undetected on rescue and capture missions.

Going solo X mission.

Using only melee to kill X enemies (or boss if possible)

Reaching 10,20, 30,40,50 minutes on survivals...

Reaching wave 10, 20, 30, 40 on defenses...

Reaching round 4, 8, etc with interceptions...

↑ all of this examples with an extra bonus, according to your Mastery Rank (MR is not loved enough, There's no difference on being MR 8 or 18.)

 

As a player, I would feel more rewarded with earning 1k, 3k reputation points achieving certain goal, than just killing tons and tons of enemies.

 

That's all my mind can come with.

 

EDIT: I wrote "meele" instead of "melee" :v

Edited by Lokime
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I just want to say thank you for being transparent and honest, and admitting to hastily made decisions and the mistakes. It's a quality you guys at DE posses that is not seen in many other companies. But I'd also like to say that this game is as much yours as it is ours, we're along on this ride with you guys!

 

I don't have much of an opinion on Viver and the changes you implemented, because I have not tried playing any of the affected frames. And to be honest I only played Viver once or twice during the "Viver Fever" to see what all the commotion was about. Personally, I didn't like it too much, I mean sure it was neat seeing 2000+ rep gain on the rewards screen, but as a player coming into the game from a pug perspective, I was met mostly with two or three individuals with a game plan that was not communicated until after I had done something they weren't planning to do. And I was met with very minor hostility for trying to play the game. It was nice for power leveling weapons in one game, but overall it was broken and needed(and still needs) to be fixed. I'm also part of the minority in the fact that I personally enjoy playing the daily syndicate missions for my rep gain. I'd like to see the missions be more unique, granted that syndicates were just released and there is much more coming for them.

 

I look forward to the changes you have in mind and trust that you all will do everything in the best interest for the game and the community.

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If you plan to LOS every warframe ability, honestly, that's fine. If that's the direction the game is going, away from space wizards and back to space ninjas, I can dig it. However, If we're going to start losing our ability to do the things we're used to with the frames we're used to, we're going to need some tools to help us ease into the transition. There's a post about a mile long about requested changes to the parkour system that would change movement and give the game an overall more 'ninja like' feel rather than what it is currently, a space wizard game. 

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As usual, I appreciate DEs ability to admit to making a mistake and do so quickly, something I would love to see other companies capable of as well.

I have a lot of confidence you will be able to (eventually) untie this particular knot, however for the time being I think you should remove that particular tile, a surgical removal of exploit material. Mostly to avoid any further knee-jerk reactions.

 

Also, can we PLEASE fix the aimbots?

Pretty please?

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