Vivergate: Vent Radioactive Gas Y/n

[Buldozers]

Admitting your mistakes takes some courage, DE, but if you want to nerf all warframe abilities because of reputation system flaws then you are doing it wrong.

[Trituraite]

[Valkyr-Umbra]

Don't worry.

I was there during the ill-fated and short-lived Stamina 2.0. I was there during the epilepsy-inducing introduction of the Arc Traps.

I know you are reasonable bunch over at DE and would not leave things this badly and make changes... eventually, once enough *cough* "feedback" has been given from the players :)

As soon as you have a more reasonable backdrop (i.e the Viver node is once and for all "fixed") to judge the LOS changes against, I've no doubt you will see how over the top they are - as the map/node is the problem, not the ultimates.

We've never had any problem with how the ultimates worked until you introduced Syndicate Rep Grind after all. Something to keep in mind, perhaps.

This says most of my thoughts. I personally think some of these frames need their "x-ray" abilities and ults (of the frames nerfed, mag was, im my opinion, the only OP one, and that was only against corpus. Unless they get some major buff in another area to compensate, the loss of these abilities would make them much less playable... These also ensure that frames can perform in narrow mazes and hallways as opposed to only big open rooms.

 

I'm hoping this will turn out like the Nova "nerf" (less a nerfing and more a rebalancing.) If I have to learn to play the frames more skillfully, that's fine, but if this is just flat-out making frames weaker to accomplish that, that's what a lot of people would have an issue with.

[ComfyOlivia]

Just as a note, I don't think LoS is a terrible idea. I think it's been executed in such a poor manner, than most people won't even consider it. Especially since it was used to nerf frames that really didn't need to be nerfed.

 

LoS on actual projectiles makes sense. But to make it so cut and dry? At least make a range to where if Excalibro's javelins hit a wall or something, they do some sort of other effect. If you're going to take something from somewhere on a frame that doesn't need nerfs, put that something somewhere else. Make the javelins explode or something. Hell, maybe even make them ricochet. Or even do proxy damage while flying. Maybe some blast?

 

I feel like for Shield Polarize and Energy Vampire, LoS doesn't make sense. Energy doesn't just hit a wall and stop. It can go around it or through it. depending on the wall. Shield polarize is like a blast. Blasts are like energy. They don't just stop. Maybe make the shield polarize work even when targets aren't in the LoS, but make it to where it's not as effective.

Edited November 13, 2014 by CoRRh

[Nochoise]

So this update is to fight against the players am i right? Instead of looking for another solution., besides the vet players dont get nothing out of it, playing since dont remember maybe one year, no new weapons that fits in late game, no content for vet players, just hopeless grind, and leviling new weapons that DE put in the game but are useless in late game... Im getting sick of this...

 

If u want to keep vet players to play this dont give them ****

Edited November 13, 2014 by Nochoise

[S.T.M.P.D]

What makes me sad the most is, the people who started complaining about Viver are the ones that started this whole riot, what is the difference between a Sechura or a Viver rep/xp run? I know DE will fix this as they always do, you should stop complaining and just be having fun and ignore all the negative activities. Just enjoy yourselfs playing this great "free to play" game.

So you're saying we shouldn't try to fix problems with the wider game? Just let people play P42W as much as they please.

Yeah. No. I will no longer tolerate being unable to enjoy a mission because some Saryn spams Miasma and kills all the mobs disproportionately. No longer will I hop onto the recruiting channel only to find it saturated with Viver runs and a normal defense JUST FOR FUN not to be found anywhere. I want the good in this game to come out, and I want the bad parts of this game to be suffocated and laser scalpeled. Is that too much to ask?

[Azure.M]

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

 

What loophole? Energy Vampire's entire purpose is to give your team unlimited energy. That's what the ability does. And adding line of sight constraints does exactly nothing at all to that. It's not a loophole, it's a rule you've deliberately put in. And you know what? Energy Vampire isn't even good. There's no need for it normally. A 'press 4 to win' ultimate will almost always kill enough enemies to drop enough energy orbs to recoup its cost. You can drop energy restores if you're getting low, they're cheap and easily available. Energy is never really a limiting factor.

And I like it like that. No I don't like standing in one place mashing a button, it's boring, and I would never submit myself to it if there was another reasonable way to gain standing. I do like mostly being able to cast stuff when I want to and not deal with cooldowns and careful mana conservation and all that. It's part of Warframe's fun, fast-paced gameplay. But if you think the energy system is fundamentally broken and want to overhaul it with something carefully thought out and interesting, then fine. But please please please don't let me see something like "Trinity's ability is now Stamina Vampire instead. Problem solved." in the next hotfix. Because after the last one that's about the level I'm expecting from you and that's depressing.

[Trituraite]

So you're saying we shouldn't try to fix problems with the wider game? Just let people play P42W as much as they please.

Yeah. No. I will no longer tolerate being unable to enjoy a mission because some Saryn spams Miasma and kills all the mobs disproportionately. No longer will I hop onto the recruiting channel only to find it saturated with Viver runs and a normal defense JUST FOR FUN not to be found anywhere. I want the good in this game to come out, and I want the bad parts of this game to be suffocated and laser scalpeled. Is that too much to ask?

I think you're misunderstanding the situation. The matter at hand is that DE target nerfed frames used specifically for Viver, not warframes that spam abilities without LoS. The fact of the matter is that this nerf wasn't to address problems with the game, as you say, but to address Viver farming.

[.-KG-..-Ragulab-.]

So instead of disabling Viver until its "fixed" you nerfed all the frames as a fix?

 

lol

[RafaelFuchs]

i'm sorry but a "panic response" is removing the node. Not targeting warframes used to commit the act. That's like me saying a panic response to someone scaring me is to run to the hardware store and buying a chainsaw...it makes no sense.

[Blazereiter]

As I said in the 15.2.0 original post:

 

When one part inside of a machine isn't working, you fix the part, not change the properties of the machine around the part. You end up wasting time and resources by reworking the machine. Just repair the part, or replace it.

 

When the charger for your phone stops working, what do you do? The answer isn't to stop using your phone. Get a new charger.

 

DE, you essentially screwed over a ton of your playerbase. One map was letting people progress more than you like? Erase the map. Of course, that only solves one problem. The main problem and the reason the map/frames became an issue was the Rep System. As Mogamu said, the Reputation System should not be based on XP gain, but on missions and achievement completion. 

 

I hope you guys learnt not to throw out an update so quickly. U15+15.2 should give an overall example of this. Archwing was rushed and, despite what a lot of people say, it doesn't work well. As you said Steve, 15.2 was also rushed.

 

The Community would rather have content that is fully ready and late than content that is half-baked, possibly broken as hell, and early.

 

My advice is slow down and think about what you're doing.

 

Edit: 

 

 

 

As i sade before the first 3 mins is good the rest is not that good whit his video about the viver stuff and more

Edited November 13, 2014 by Blazereiter

[Mak_Gohae]

Honored Tenno,

 

Well, we screwed that one up, didn’t we? In our panic to address exploits we’ve rolled out some half-baked changes, and didn’t test them nearly enough. Worse - we didn’t communicate the changes and explain the rationale.

 

We’ve plugged some holes and we’re running out of fingers. I’m sorry you had to see all of this, its quite embarrassing. I’m sure you’re frustrated. I am deeply sorry for messing up your game.

 

Here’s where we’re at:

 

We’re going to do some map fixes AND we’re going to fix a few bugs with line of sight changes and let it ride until we have a cohesive and well communicated set of changes to roll out.

 

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

 

This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in. That’s the short answer to ‘why the hell is DE messing with us’. Homer’s drinking bird should not play the game for you.

 

We will be changing the dreaded map somewhat today… the level team has refused to grant my request of making Viver an insta-kill-lava-death-pit. Instead, spawning will be staggered to help address enemy clumps, but again - ‘everyone within 80 meters dies with keyboard macro’ is a larger issue than any one particular map. I’d be curious what your thoughts are.

 

I know yesterday’s changes have exposed deep frustrations from our Tenno - from Syndicates to mission types, and poetically it all began with our first Warframe: Excalibur. With your voices ringing in our ears we intend to remedy as soon as possible. I look forward to reading your reactions to the next series of hotfixes (I have my asbestos underpants on now).

 

YYY YY   YY YYYYYYY YYY

(-DE_Steve)

 

(Ninja edit after reading thread)

 

Syndicate Standing is absolutely under the surgical laser. It's screaming.

 

With abilities, again, things are not staying as they are currently - as I said above *until we have a cohesive set of changes* We're going to try to entangle this and do it once without driving like my grandma on an icy road.

 

Syndicates will get cooler over time. It was some character and opposition. It is not a 'whole new way to play' and never was pitched as such. It's a layer, a purpose, to the existing and future game-modes we are adding.

 

This is what happens when you turn the game into Dynasty Warriors.

Give people the ability to destroys platoons of enemies with a couple of hits and watch them try to figure out how to take out a company with a couple of hits.

 

Here's my solution for this.

You need to limit the amount of "tokens" one can get to some degree or else this is not going to stop.

Maybe you can even only give rep when you kill things at your level and above.

This promotes the ranking up of things.

[RG870]

1. Revert Mag, Trinity and Excalibur to their pre-15.2 state immediately.

 

2. Unbind reputation gain from affinity gain. Make reputation an end of mission reward (stacking up on mission types with waves / rounds). Reward high rank players with a reputation gain bonus. Reduce the insane ammount of grind to rank up syndicates.

 

3. LoS on AoE skills is a big no-no-no!!!

If I have line of sight I simply shoot them in the face. I need AoE skills when I have no LoS or when things already have gone wrong. How can I pick up my teammate after a Rhino Stomp if there are more enemies coming around that corner or from behind that box which I did not have LoS to when stomping? What about T4 def waves 30+? No matter what frame I use, to those mobs I am a one shot. I'm not gonna expose myself to them to cast my ultimate because it is going to be my end even before I finish the cast. I use AoE abilities from behind cover and if it's been a CC I may move out of cover afterwards to finish them off as long as the CC lasts.

If the T4 Def pod is attacked by Lvl 80+ mobs you have less than 3 seconds before the mission fails. This is when those AoE CCs could save the day. They bought you a little time to clean up the mess, no matter where they were hiding or from what position they were shooting the pod. With LoS CCs you will NEVER hit all of them which means "mission failed" with no way of avoiding it.

The whole game is not designed around line of sight AoE abilitites. This is what single target casts and our weapons are used for. There is just too much cover, too many obstacles and too many enemies hiding or coming around the next corner to make LoS AoE skills useful at all.

 

Warframe is not about a single map like Viver and it's not just about low level mobs. Abilities and especially the ultimates must be useful for any map, game mode and especially for endgame content like high level T4 waves.

 

And by the way ... stop nerfing Trinity! In other games I love playing support classes. I loved the idea of Trinity as a support / heal based frame and could not wait to unlock, craft and play her. After ranking her up to 30 I hardly ever touched her because I realized how useless she was in most situations as more damage almost every time seemed to be the better solution.

Now that I have a nice selection of mods and would able to support my team with energy over a big area Trinity at least started to be interesting again. After 15.2 I don't even bother using her again. Energy support was something people started to like even in T4 Def long runs (50+ waves). That was the only skill which justified taking a Trinity to such content.

Well of Life? C'mon, it's nothing more than a single target stun (forget about the heal, it's too situational). Many frames can do that better than Trin.

Link? Used to be overpowered in the past. Now it's nice to have in mid-level content but useless in high level T4 missions as you still are a 1shot.

Blessing? Again, great in mid level content to save teammates but useless in high level T4 because people usually get 1shot.

Energy Vampire was that one, single ability which made Trinity a viable choice even for endgame content. Too bad you don't stand next to each other having line of sight to those Lvl 100+ Mobs in T4 Def / Surv. Those Lvl 100+ Mobs are hard to kill even with a 6 forma Boltor Prime. This is where frame abilities come into play and where your team needs energy - a lot of energy. And this is where Trinity could shine - before 15.2.

I would like to see some serious buffs to that frame. Remove Well of Life and maybe replace it with a support skill which reduces damage to your team based on their shield / life (something like "Reduce damage from all sources to 33% of your max shield / life per hit"). This could even prevent those 1shots from big mobs and bring back Trinity to endgame content.

Edited November 13, 2014 by RG870

[Edgedemon]

how bout you pull those nerf backs an just put a strict max range?

radial javelin was never intended to be a wide area attack anyway

[Veddhartha]

So this update is to fight against the players am i right? 

I never thought of it like this, but this is a good point. I'd do the same if I were in their shoes, too. Why admit I created a mess of a system when I can shift all (or most) of the blame on the players?

Edited November 13, 2014 by Veddhartha

[Edgedemon]

i'm sorry but a "panic response" is removing the node. Not targeting warframes used to commit the act. That's like me saying a panic response to someone scaring me is to run to the hardware store and buying a chainsaw...it makes no sense.

will make the person go away, it may attract cops but you can't have it all

[Fruchtpudding]

Honored Tenno,

 

Well, we screwed that one up, didn’t we? In our panic to address exploits we’ve rolled out some half-baked changes, and didn’t test them nearly enough. Worse - we didn’t communicate the changes and explain the rationale.

 

Exactly. How you as a professional game developer could roll out these changes is baffling to me. Not only was the update a complete desaster, the PR surrounding it was as well. Where is your QA team? Does it even exist?

That changes such as these, which are obviously emotional kneejerk reactions to problems that you are apparently not willing to see could go through to the live game-client is astounding to me.

 

 

Here’s where we’re at:

 

We’re going to do some map fixes AND we’re going to fix a few bugs with line of sight changes and let it ride until we have a cohesive and well communicated set of changes to roll out.

 

This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in. That’s the short answer to ‘why the hell is DE messing with us’. Homer’s drinking bird should not play the game for you.

 

It appears you continue to feign ignorance. Line of sight was never the problem, you spawning system is. All these 'exploits' are in fact exploiting your spawning system and nothing else, this needs a revision.

Removing the ability to hit enemies behind cover or around corners is going to be extremely detrimental for all gameplay. It will be slower and more frustrating to everyone.

Furthermore not a single tile in the game or a single AoE power was ever designed with LoS in mind. In order for this to not be a huge, frustrating failure every single tile would have to be revisited. The level designers are probably internally screaming with rage seeing how many complaints they will get in the following months by people that are frustrated to have their powers blocked by tiny boxes or pipes.

Just stop it. This has started with Excaliburs radial blind, which you felt the need to nerf after it was used extensively. And I'm not against that change, it's not an ultimate, and it thematically makes sense since it's a bright light. Everything else though? No, absolutely not.

 

Do I need to remind you that you just changed Radial Javelin to ignore line of sight? And that you went back on that change now not because of some long standing design descision but because people getting rep too fast annoyed you?

 

You continue to plead excuses for these changes as some overarching power overhaul when in reality you only use LoS to effectively nerf Frames that have seen use in exploiting your spawning system. And you apparently have no problem going back on these changes (see Radial Javelin again) if you feel like it isn't going to have a negative impact.

Stop assuming we're stupid and don't notice, I feel personally insulted by this.

 

 

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy. Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

 

There is no loophole. You have designed energy Vampire, it has been in the game for almost two years, it has supplied infinite energy for entire teams since it was created. It was created with specifically that in mind. People using it to efficiently exploit your spawning system is not a loophole with energy gain. That it is possible to automate this is the loophole, but that again is not the fault of the ability but the fault of your map design and spawning system.

 

Also this sounds like another point that if you implement something to stop it, as you are implying here, is just going to hurt actual teamplay in your teamplay oriented game. With Energy Vampire as it is now a good squad sticking together can have infinite energy, and why not? Why not reward teamplay? Why not make people more powerful if they play together? This doesn't need a fix. It promotes co-operative play, in your co-op shooter.

(I am talking about normal missions here, not the Viver debacle.)

 

 

We will be changing the dreaded map somewhat today… the level team has refused to grant my request of making Viver an insta-kill-lava-death-pit. Instead, spawning will be staggered to help address enemy clumps, but again - ‘everyone within 80 meters dies with keyboard macro’ is a larger issue than any one particular map. I’d be curious what your thoughts are.

 

Finally something sensible in your post. My suggestion? Replace the map altogether, this map is too small for interception, but staggered spawning is a step in the right direction as it is a step that will not affect normal gameplay, unlike the other ones you so haphazardly threw out.

 

My thoughts are that a well organized team utilizing the game to it's fullest should be able to do the 'everyone within 80 meters dies' thing, but not as a keyboard macro, obviously. As you have pointed out that is not a problem with the map in particular (though the small map is still a problem) but with how the game works. A simple cooldown timer on some ultimate abilites should solve that problem neatly.

Also this entire thing is already only possible for veteran players who have played hundreds of hours of your game and probably INVESTED MONEY into it. Why should they not be allowed to be powerful? They are at the peak powerlevel this game has to offer, why would you want to take that away?

 

 

Syndicate Standing is absolutely under the surgical laser. It's screaming.

 

That you had to edit that in after posting this probably long prepared statement does not give me very much hope that you have indeed understood what the core of the problem is. I suggest watching the excellent video on the topic the youtube user "Mogamu" has put out on this. It sums up our complaints neatly and offers much more objective feedback than mine.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Fruchtpudding

[tocorro]

I don't want to be to pesimistic, but I really have no idea why so many of You guys have your hopes up that changes to Energy Vampire, or Shield Polarize would be reverted. In all this time I haven't seen DE rolling back the changes they once made. Sure they tinker with them for a long time after, tweaking and so on, but never reverting.

 

Personal opinion : the changes will stay, at most they will try for LoS to work a bit better.

2nd personal opinion : the design of the maps in this game didn't have LoS in mind, so I'm not sure if this is great idea now. Also this would be nerfing frames and I'm not sure if it will be adding more chalenge - this infinite scaling on enemies, their nearly perfect acuracy and hard hitting is already demanding for most players. 

3rd personal opinion : if DE want more challenge, and skill, then maybe looking back at good old Mass Effect 3 wouldn't be bad ? I liked those demanding enemies that spawned there, and I certainly wouldn't mind a cover system for us to use - the enemies are using it all the time.

[Phoenix86]

Yep, ninja edited my original post...

 

i can take a good rest now, being quoted like this restored a bit of faith in myself

[Lynxh]

I have to disagree with the majority of people on something

 

Viver was a sympton(of a affinity based rep system), but so are Syndicates. Both merely helped to highlight at what state gameplay is atm. Both put a giant magnifying glass on the "press 4" matter. It wasn't non existent before, it was simply less visible.

 

LoS isn't a bad thing, but I highly urge DE to take a look at Warframe as a whole. For the majority of the tiles and a lot of frames performance, getting/needing LoS can be very damaging. If you do insist on adding it (which I don't mind if done well), it absolutely must become more reliable and less harsh. Next to not just willy nilly adding LoS to all AoE abilities but actually have it make at least a bit of sense for the frame's role, performance and ability.

 

Anyway, I'm not burning any bridges atm. And yes, I think it would be better served to stave off from tackling any abilities until you have something more solid (little LoS jab there) for more then just 2 frames.

 

As last note DE, get your act together. I know you can do better then this, this topic being needed is sad for all sides.

Good luck DE Staff, as always looking forward to future development.

[--MZez--]

Goodjob more fixes

[Winter-Silence]

I appreciate the answer about state of things. I hope that next changes would be less game breaking.

[WoozDuz]

[chrisacc22]

No need to be inmature.

He asked..

(Also, it's immature)(whoopsies, leaving that)

Edited November 13, 2014 by chrisacc22

[DarkSignal]

Whatever you do, please fix the problem with Mag's shield polarize; that being she can't even restore her own shields. She suffered just as much as Excalibur in that sense.