Vivergate: Vent Radioactive Gas Y/n

[Viverim]

Thanks for the update, DE Steve.  I have no particular opinion of Viver as I never go there anyway, plus I am one of those who hate Interception.

 

The modes that I play most are Exterminate, Deception, Spy, or Sabotage, and trying to rank up Syndicates in these modes are pretty much pointless.  I hope that on your list of plans there is some solution to help with those of us who aren't endeared of the "Holy Survival" mode.

 

After several weeks, my Syndicate points are at 3,900.  Once I hit 5,000, all of those points vanish and I have to start over.  This means that I will spend almost two months (at least) earning points for no reward at all.  This, for me, is an empty system as it currently stands. 

 

I understand that the design team has many important things to deal with.  I simply hope that you are also aware of this problem and have some form of solution in mind.

 

Thank you again for your attention to the life and flow of the game.

[Xana_Skullsunder]

I agree with the general sentiment... Still annoyed by the changes only happening on a small number of frames with little warning. That's all.

 

That... still doesn't solve the sheer grindwall for syndicates vets have been complaining about.

 

Granted, an overarching look at 4spam is needed, but I doubt this'll solve the hyperfarming problem. As long as there's a good reason, the playerbase will find a way.

 

This bit here, too. I'd like to access what my favored Syndicates offer some time within this decade, but it just isn't happening at the current rate I play.

[Implodingbanana]

im just glad to know you guys are looking into it and that you informed us :D you guys will always be my favorite Devs! good luck and have lots of tea and coffee!

[Blazereiter]

 

his video is good the first 3 mins and that is all the rest is not that good

[angrykenji]

(Ninja edit after reading thread)

 

Syndicate Standing is absolutely under the surgical laser. It's screaming.

 

With abilities, again, things are not staying as they are currently - as I said above *until we have a cohesive set of changes* We're going to try to entangle this and do it once without driving like my grandma on an icy road.

 

Syndicates will get cooler over time. It was some character and opposition. It is not a 'whole new way to play' and never was pitched as such. It's a layer, a purpose, to the existing and future game-modes we are adding.

 

veterans with not as much on their plate compared to the newer user will most likely find the most effective way to min-max the rep points needed.  as long as there is a grindwall, players will find that min-max point whether it be viver or any other node.

 

therefore, frames should not suffer because of said methods.  they were at a really high point and then these LoS changes brought them way down.

Edited November 13, 2014 by angrykenji

[Kiwosa]

On topic of the nerfs, coming from someone who plays Trin and Excal a ton:

Many people have been talking the "logic" point, like magnetism working through walls, but this isn't a very logic based game in the first place. That being said, the nerfs here hurt the frames immensely and cut their already small userbase (Barring the newbies who started with Excal and are forced to play him for a bit) even further from a balance perspective.

 

Excal's Radial Javelin was pretty average as it was before. The damage output wasn't the best, and range plus the amount of enemies it hit was its only real strength. Now, adding LoS, even making it actual LoS based instead of just reverting the recent "javelins spawn near enemies" deal, hurts the ability greatly. Many tilesets contain a large amount of obstacles, and that means no LoS. An ability like Radial Javelin with such a long cast time needs to hit a large amount of enemies to be useful, as its generally used purpose was to either soften up a large amount of enemies or clean up the scraps of already softened enemies/weaker enemies. It could fill that purpose amazingly with the recent mechanical change, as it could hit many enemies in a large radius. Now? In the majority of rooms you're hitting maybe three or four enemies, maybe five if you're lucky. Doing average damage to a small amount of enemies, needing to use a large amount of energy and going through a long casting animation? No deal. Javelins will become incredibly rare to see instead of one of Excal's most powerful tools.

 

Trinity's Energy Vamp is clearly a very powerful tool, being able to regen precious energy very quickly. However, it's rare in many situations that the entire team will be close enough to take in the effects, let alone be in LoS. Generally, the team will be running all over the place, dealing with their own battles as needed instead of focusing on one large battle. This is because enemies come from many directions in most cases, not just funneling through one doorway. Before the LoS update, EV uncommonly helped out all three teammates, a decent amount of the time it helped two of them in one casting. Now? Enemies don't commonly even get close enough to the team to keep constant LoS, and if they do, they're normally dead in an instant because the players would rather not be fired upon and destroyed. EV required a target to get somewhat close and stay alive for long enough to let the Trinity cast it upon them, and then for the team to be close enough afterwards to recieve the energy. I'd be surprised if anyone other than Trin would stay close to an enemy AND in LoS long enough to get energy consistently in an average team, and then what can she do with it? Well of Life is useless in many ways. Link is Trin's selfish tool, outside of revives or the rare situation that she'd need to act as a tank for the team. Blessing is the only real choice here, meaning the frame is limited to two abilities most of the time, and only assists the team with health, and very rarely will she give energy, instead of acting as the toolshed she used to be. She used to be able to look onwards after a well placed EV to see the Loki disarming a group, and the Rhino stomping said group after they gather, followed by Excal cleaning up the scraps with Javelins, thinking "I caused that," while keeping watch for a hitch all along the way with a Blessing at the ready if someone screwed up. Giving up one of four squad slots for health alone is not going to be a choice many will take at all, now.

Plus, as mentioned earlier, energy orbs and energy restore items are common enough that energy itself is barely a restraint. Flow, multiple Energy Siphons, Streamline/Fleeting Expertise, there are many ways to make energy irrelevant even without Trinity.

[Mama_Sasha]

Regarding standings with the syndicates, hmm, maybe add some special kind of Syndicate alerts that are nightmare versions? That be somethnig.

 

EDIT: Oh also, regarding Nyx's mind controll. Why not also do something similar that Limbo can do with his Rift ability? Able to Mind Controll an enemy, and then deactivate the ability on the said target the same way, thus giving more controll over the said target.

 

EDIT2: fixed some grammer errors. I am to trigger happy on the keyboard o3o

 

EDIT3: Alot of edits alright lol, but another thing. There sould be also assassination missions for the syndicates that gives the player the mission to kill a VIP of their enemy faction, giving a Standing boost.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Cebius

[Kontrollo]

Darn it, i guess this will invalidate my ideas on how to improve on Limbo's appearance as well...

 

 

:^)

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

[kazeyama]

See this is why I love DE atleast you show how much you care. I look forward to seeing how things turn out. If you are going to seriously rework every frame though please, please come up with more creative alternatives than nerfing LOS. There are some frames where all they have is damage and if you take that away they are going to be quite useless. You also have to worry about losing that sense of power that should come with an "ultimate" ability. 

 

I.E. Saryn Miasma is going to be hard to think of a good change for since she has been a miasma bot forever anyway. Some of these frames I wouldn't mind sacrificing AOE for some CC or even a whole new ultimate or kit entirely. 

 

Glad to know the community is still in on the action. 

 

Also if this thread is a community poll then I vote YES for the radioactive gas. Wipe Viver off the map, do it for the queens. 

[MantisCore]

I don't know how you do it, Steve. I tried to read through this thread and my head almost exploded.

 

Well, in any case it's nice to hear that something good may come out of this and the spammability of ultimates is going to be addressed systematically. If ultimates are going to live up to their name they need to be something you use tactically. Something that is really powerful but that you have to save until necessary or it won't be available when you really need it.

[Airwolfen]

Thanks for the update, DE Steve.  I have no particular opinion of Viver as I never go there anyway, plus I am one of those who hate Interception.

 

The modes that I play most are Exterminate, Deception, Spy, or Sabotage, and trying to rank up Syndicates in these modes are pretty much pointless.  I hope that on your list of plans there is some solution to help with those of us who aren't endeared of the "Holy Survival" mode.

 

After several weeks, my Syndicate points are at 3,900.  Once I hit 5,000, all of those points vanish and I have to start over.  This means that I will spend almost two months (at least) earning points for no reward at all.  This, for me, is an empty system as it currently stands. 

 

I understand that the design team has many important things to deal with.  I simply hope that you are also aware of this problem and have some form of solution in mind.

 

Thank you again for your attention to the life and flow of the game.

 

While I agree with all your points. Your name in this topic made me giggle.

[dashashou]

So the 3 classes are still broken ?   when the map just needed to be locked ....  

 

so the overreaction still stands   and people are still annoyed and the promise of   thought out class - and skill balancing   to be coming soon ^tm  

 

 and there was nothing wrong with there skills  - it was 100 % the map. There are frames that are still broken - ember ,  hydro ,  proper balancing  takes time and thought  and planning and leaving 3 more frames broken  just seems ludicrous 

[Xylia]

So........Steve.....

 

If we are not going to be able to hit enemies not in our LoS...

 

When are Napalms and Bombards going to get similar nerfs?

 

It is not fair that Napalms can set us on fire from 50 meters+ away because their napalm projectiles are hitting a nearby wall and burning us through it.

 

Bombards should not be able to shoot a missile and have it track us if we're out of the missile's LoS, nor should the blast radius ignore LoS.

 

If we must have LoS, then our enemies should require LoS too.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Xylia

[alif3]

Good response Steve, it is reassuring to see you address the issues, I know you will make this right as you and the other devs always have. I hope you aren't too discouraged by the response this last patch has garnered you guys are really moving in the right direction I am loving syndicates and archwings and the type of lore they are adding. The quest in yesterday's patch is making me excited for what is to come. Sad about Excalibur as it really made using him a blast as he is one of if not my favorite frames, but I cannot deny he was overstepping where he should be in strength, when combined with unlimited energy. Perhaps a buff to slash dash(release javelines as you as forward at x amount of enemies as you pass by might be cool to bring him back up to a fun playable level) But I digress.

Anyway keep up the good work, way to keep a level head about you as you and the rest of the community experience these growing pains. You bring me back to this game time and time again with your awesome content and ideas!   

[LunariaN-]

stop nerfing my sayrn.

 

I thought you guys wanted to make something like one persons kills everything game as Dynasty Warriors series.

Also there isnt much co-op thing on Warframe.

 

Well,  think about it.  Why people gather up and use macro , and stay up for a hour or so and spam skills.

Yes, I think Viver needed change, but is it really need to change warframes?  Or need change how the syndicates works?  Players wanted the standing points, we wanted the augment mods, new cosme, and staff!  Priority was re-do the syndicate works,  then Viver change,  at last maybe nerfing frames if it is necessary.  I was sad you guys nerfed mag, coz her skill was magnetic and needs line of sights?  magnetic needs line of sights?  then what is enemy rader for.  This doesnt make any sense to it.  Please do not use the sophism.  The problem is syndicates.  Dont say that warframe skills are bad one.

Edited November 14, 2014 by LunariaN-

[AlphaHorseman]

Remove the nerfs, thats what we ask. Shield Polarize was a good ability, and it was great when you could cast it behind cover to restore shields and affect enemy units. Now, to affect enemies, we run the risk of stepping into enemy line of sight and cast, and with the recent changes on enemy hit-scan accuracy, you can bet your bottom the Grineer are gonna have a field day on a squishy caster frame like Mag. Now apply this logic to the Radial Javelin nerf we just got, which is completely counterproductive to the Excal rework that we just had that made his ult actually palpable in some late-game situations. Excal must also run the risk of going into enemy Line of Sight to cast Radial Javelin, which also means that the high level enemies we face can give him a whole new bullet blanket since Radial Javelin still takes forever to cast. He dies...fast...no doubt about it.

 

You've not only squashed Mag's primary useful ability in late-game, but you've also negated your Excalibur rework with this recent nerf.

 

Oh don't get me started on Trinity, Scott nerfed Trinity into the ground. Just when I thought you couldn't murder the girl even more, you've proven me wrong.

[Chroia]

In case it requires saying:

All the following is my opinion, and only my opinion.

I have neither the training nor the experience doing what you guys are doing, and as such, well...

*shrug*

 

 Replies to this specific thread:

Honored Tenno,

Honor, like respect, isn't free. It is earned and it is lost.

Appeasement is unnecessary.

 

 

 

Well, we screwed that one up, didn’t we? In our panic to address exploits we’ve rolled out some half-baked changes, and didn’t test them nearly enough.

No. You did what you intended to do.

Whether it was the right or wrong thing, or whether it was an effective measure, is besides the point.

 

 

 

Worse - we didn’t communicate the changes and explain the rationale.

I did see the changes thanks to the 'recent staff posts' in a note by DERebecca in a thread.

And this was appreciated.

But yes, revealing the nerfs changes without a rationale(ization) was bad, as you know, since it just left people drawing their own (fairly warranted, coming as they did on the heels of the Viver remap and packaged with Interception mechanical changes-) conclusions, seen through a more or less understanding/charitable lens, depending on their pre-existing baggage.

Welcome to the internet, I guess?

 

 

We’ve plugged some holes and we’re running out of fingers. I’m sorry you had to see all of this, its quite embarrassing. I’m sure you’re frustrated. I am deeply sorry for messing up your game.

And maybe it's just me being too sensitive, but here the appeasement grates.

It's not our game, it's yours.

For an audience, sure, but that doesn't change it.

 

 

We’re going to do some map fixes AND we’re going to fix a few bugs with line of sight changes and let it ride until we have a cohesive and well communicated set of changes to roll out.

Excellent.

 

 

 

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy.

Energy Restore packs. Trinity's Energy Vampire (her biggest selling point to team-play, btw, for that exact reason). Energy Siphon. Power Efficiency mods.

Warframe is a very different game, depending on whether you have these or not.

 

If you don't, e.g. are a new player, you need to weigh opportunity cost vs. RNG's mercy (a.k.a. orb drops).

Speaking from my experience, I before getting some combination of the above, I never bothered slotting most ultimates. They weren't worth the energy I could have spent on 4/2/1.25 casts of the other abilities.

 

ofc now, having all of them (often except Trinity, but eh.)?

I can afford to spam 4 with nearly no thought about energy costs (if I'm not using Restores, or with no thought if I am).

 

But this is more due to a different problem that Warframe's had for as long as I've been playing it:

Warframe mods become too powerful.

Which is why I appreciate the more cautious approach you're taking with the non-damage Archwing mods.

(ofc, you should've done the same with the damage mods... but then the you'd run right up against the scaling in it's unadulterated (by Mod power) fury. Which the players would notice.

Can't have that.)

(Yes, I'm a tad cynical, and rather caustic about it at times when it comes to companies.

It's a learned reaction. What to do.)

 

 

Finding an energy loophole means that Homer’s drinking bird can play the game for you. That is not team synergy. That is just broken.

Respectfully, no.

Unless you're being circumspect and talking about something other than what I think you are:

Said 'energy loophole' is Energy Vampire working as intended.

The problem is the setup which allows 'Homer's drinking bird' to 'play the game for you'.

As to 'not team synergy'... I agree. It's not synergistic. It's

ifTrinity == SquadmatethenEnergy = -1

But that's what Trinity brings to the table (that Oberon can't).

 

 

 

This fall, starting with Excalibur, we’ve begun to take a hard look at these ‘X-Ray AOE’ abilities and wonder if we can bring more elements of skill back in.

Then I sure hope that you're either reworking your existing tiles with this in mind, or keeping the existing tiles in mind when taking said look.

Have you tried, e.g. feeding your squad some energy in the Infested Corpus Ship tileset recently?

 

 

Homer’s drinking bird should not play the game for you.

Again, that may have been the catalyst, but it's not the reason.

As a thought exercise, forget LoS limits.

Instead, reduce the effectiveness of all Warframe mods (Power Range, Power Strength, Power Efficiency) by half.

How would this affect Viver? (or anything else, really.)

 

 

 

the level team has refused to grant my request of making Viver an insta-kill-lava-death-pit.

Shame.

 

 

‘everyone within 80 meters dies with keyboard macro’ is a larger issue than any one particular map. I’d be curious what your thoughts are.

Oy.

 

'everyone ... dies' - Sounds like you need to

A) decide what the role of ultimates is. If they aren't a board-wipe (if damage), or a game-changer (if CC), what the **** are they for?

B) Note that Mag's key ability wasn't her 4, it was her 2. Hard counters are like that.

(As an aside, continuing our thought experiment: How would halving Power Strength affect Shield Polarize (henceforth SP)? Further, perhaps others (as an example) and I were not wrong about stacking Blind Rage and Transient Fortitude being a Bad Thing™?

Because, as I recall, one of the rebuttals used often was 'well, what frames would it affect? Mag? Who cares?!')

C) Taking the above 2 notes into account, consider the disproportionate (quadratic, I believe) power of the Efficiency modifier (and Energy Restores, for that matter).

There's a reason that "everyone uses Energy Siphon" and nothing else.

 

If using energy were a serious consideration, you'd see less people putting said macro to use, irrespective of anything else.

 

 

'within 80 meters' - I repeat: Power Range mods.

60ish radial meters on a maxed SP, and another 30ish radial for each explosion.

Admittedly, SP is the extreme example, being the single largest AoE-potential ability (not even ult. iirc Crush has half that range), but it stems from the power of mods.

 

'with a keyboard marco' - Small map + infinite energy (if via Trinity, if via auto-dropping restores) + huge AoE, combined with a required assembly-line slaughterfest (since Rep is derived from exp, and exp is nearly-purely gained from killing stuff)...

This problem stems from the entire setup, not the individual components(, though, as above, there are issues there too, imo).

 

 

I know yesterday’s changes have exposed deep frustrations from our Tenno - from Syndicates to mission types,

? I don't follow.

My only issue with mission-types is that, with Rep working as it does, Viver, boring as it is, is hundreds to thousands of times more effective than anything and everything else, for the same amount of time spent.

(Edit: And that's not hyperbole. That is literally true.)

 

 

 I look forward to reading your reactions to the next series of hotfixes (I have my asbestos underpants on now).

Then I'll do my best to be observant and clearsighted.

(p.s. carcinogenic undies? Wow, that's devotion.)

 

 

Syndicate Standing is absolutely under the surgical laser. It's screaming.

The problem (ofc imo) isn't the fact of its existence.

It's A) the Rep <- Exp <- slaughterfest chain. and

B) The fact that you're setting a whole new thousand-mile-race, when some of us are 800 miles or more already along.

(Which I suggested a 'fix' for, FWIW.)

 

My reaction to 15.2.0, and the problems of / solutions to the situation as a whole, (E: derp. Fixed link) in case relevant, since Feedback/General has been flooded.

 

 

Edit:

Curses, BBCode!

If my spoilers are broken - again - then Goddamn it, BBCode, there are all of 2 spoiler tags (open and close) in this post! >_<'.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Chroia

[xacegod]

I still think that one more thing is overlooked in all this, the fact that you need to grind exp to level warframes, weapons,...
I didn't go to Viver for reputation farm, I went there to get my weapons from 0 to 30 in an hour or so.
Put forma, repeat.

 

Now that is the problem, since I tried playing the normal way and to get from 2k affinity (experience) to 600k is 300 missions each lets say takes 10minutes that is 3000minutes/60=50 hours. 50 hours to level something the "normal" way. Thats just for 1 forma...

 

You are making a killing machine kill things so that it can put something somewhere in a weapon that will make weapon stronger to kill more stuff... Just stating the logic behind it... That aside, I started last month playing Warframe yet again, and it was easier for me since my friend is higher rank and just took me along for most missions, killed bosses for Warframe parts, and its been so long that I have no idea what is the story in this game... Beautiful and rich lore but no reward from it, so ignore and just kill stuff... There was no time to stop and look around, to explore, to enjoy the view,... Great maps and design, but you make it so we don't care about it... There is no reward in looking around for stuff, checking,... The recent alert for Halloween was fun, but most people didn't even bother looking for caches, most people don't care about scanning and unlocking codex, since once again no reward (20 affinity for scan, seriously?)...

 

The issue is gameplay that is somewhat slow, the issue is that I want to play with my warframe and use the abilities, kill a lot of enemies, play stealth the whole mission, just use my new melee weapon, etc. but that is not rewarding enough. The idea about rewarding system is to make good and bad decision more easier to distinguish. I wont go into dopamine addiction but that is essentially it.

Syndicates are awesome addition, but now I want to change mine since the ideology I like in the one I am in, but what they offer I don't... Again there is no reward in playing the one I like, but rather the one that has some reward in playing them... Again bad system for rewarding.

The problem is not Viver or any other Interception mission, the problem simply is bad rewarding. Why "waste" time in T1E or T4E, just come in and get out, there are no obstacle courses, even when they do appear, most won't look since they don't see something rewarding in it.
I played ODC or ODE, and found an obstacle course, which I loved, but since it was a vault run, I only got why are you wasting our time there is no reward? So why add something in game for no reward? Why would I play it if its not rewarding me with fun?

I love Ash, but if you add LoS for him, instant delete of the game and thats that. Not to mention Nova, Nekros, Rhino,... all frames with great abilities that do require no LoS to be fun to play with. There has to be some better way for us to beat 100 mindless mobs per wave that only go straight to you with no tactic or logic (Defense missions,...)?

 

I played this a long time ago when skills were unlocked differently, when there were no mods, when weapons ranked up with level (I believe they got stronger the bigger the rank, but that was more than a year ago and a lot of other games ago). This is kind of pointless, since there is no skill thats needed once you have all mods ranked max, just point and they die. Now that is fun, but why shoot ones leg and they drop dead?

 

There is more of this problematic things that should be checked and looked into, but you must ask the people what they want, we are doing your job for you, and we would love having a game that would really be something to look forward to doing once out of school, work,... But how can I work if I need to play at least 40min survival to get some good drops, and there is a chance to crash? How many times will I try and then realize there is no reward in this? I am not happy when playing this game, the host migrates, bugs wave 35 or round 8, so I should look for fun elsewhere. That is the opinion of most people at the moment, and making more and more bad decision will result in a loss of a lot potential clients/player,...

 

Now not to teach you your job, but dont publish huge updates, especially in times of holidays, and dont nerf "hereos" the moment they become attractive. I was considering in playing Mag, Trinity and Excalibur, but why now? I only read how useless they are, why get Hydroid or whatever  the name is, when that Vay Hek key is really hard to get for a support frame? Really? No thank you... again the reward system... Now I didn't even bother getting him...

Speaking of which 30 plat for 300 polymer bundle? 30p for 300 oxium is great, but the rest is just stupid... Again the reward system.
While on topic please add option to buy 1000 scans.

Now lets say I want to farm for some rare mod, when will it appear? No one knows... Might be never, might appear and you don't see it,... Again reward players somehow, give them a chance to get those mods... Now as a new player to get any of the void content is beyond hard... The best way is to start your game and work through the system, and you will realize just how much you lack... Not to mention working through the system is so much time consuming that playing the game all the time for 2-3 months is not going to do it... If you don't quit-delete its good...

I was fighting stalker for 5mins and on next appearance some random guy (im guessing its a guy) 1 shots him... I got better equipment as well, so now the perspective changed from looking forward to tough long fight, to just killing him and then saying dread again, useless stance again,... Again the reward system switched from just having fun to mindless grinding to get stuff... Take speed Nova so that the first waves go by faster then restart, repeat... No problem here, nerf Viver. This is the issue, of not having more challenging maps, more enemies or just simply more affinity from them. By depriving us of affinity won't make us buy affinity boosters... Maybe if they would to give like 10x or 100x more, then maybe...

All I am asking as we all are, fix major bugs, by major I mean the most annoying ones, then the rest. Grind system is failing, re-balance it, ask us we know whats good for us.
I want to spam abilities. That's how I play. A friend plays only with melee, his choice, he can't force it on me, so don't try to force it on me, to whom doesn't like energy orbs, or energy regen, don't use it, don't destroy the game for rest of us.

Sorry about a long post...

[-10no-Dark]

" we’re going to fix a few bugs with line of sight changes"

You can't just admit that LOS changes are bad for gameplay and roll them back? Seriously?

[-10no-Dark]

Moreover, your maps were never designed for LOS.

[lstalri]

‘everyone within 80 meters dies with keyboard macro’ is a larger issue than any one particular map. I’d be curious what your thoughts are.

 

 

 

Nukeframe is what the game is about.  This is what makes the game unique.  All of the weapons are coppied from somewher else, the ability mechanics are copied.  It's their application and the hack-and-slash feel where we don't actually have to hack-and-slash that makes this game unique.  Removing nukeframe removes the games identity. 

[Ithloniel]

DE_Steve, I loved the post, and thank you for opening up the floor to the community. :)

 

I had a few thoughts, and I'll try to be as clear as possible.  I'll start with the words of Mogamu, who said, "There will always be a Viver". 

 

In any game that uses experience and levels/ranks, there has always been a Viver.  I remember back when Diablo 2 first developed its strong online community, players were doing Cow Level for experience, and then later on, it was Baal runs.  That was back in 2000/2001, over 10 years ago.  Since then, the internet gaming community has grown substantially.  Name any game that uses experience, and a player will show you a popular area for exp grinding.

 

We need to recognize that what we are discussing in this thread is, in fact, two separate issues:

 

1) There will always be a Viver

2) Drinking-bird scenarios undermine strong game-play

 

The first issue is one we have to accept.  It will always be there.  The second issue is one we should never accept.  No game should hand you a 'click-to-win' option on a silver platter.  While one can argue that you still have to work to get all the mods required to make your frame capable of this, it still undermines basic game-play.  If you don't need to aim, if you don't need to move, and if all you need is a single button being pressed over and over to play a game, you aren't really playing anything.  You have simplified your game into the most basic of Skinner boxes, in which even a rat understands that by pressing a lever (or button 4), an easily achieved reinforcer will be presented.

 

While I am sure there are ways to resolve this issue, I can't think of any that won't get me immediate community hate... but here's the only idea I can come up with anyway:

 

Idea likely to spawn community hate:

Warframe has avoided this so far, but maybe it is time to consider... Cool-downs.  I mean, we kind of have them already with certain duration-based powers like Chaos, but what if we straight-up did away with duration-limits on recasts, and instead implemented actual cool-downs?  This also means a new type of power mod could be released, that affected cool-downs, as well as corrupted mods that either decreased or increased cool-downs.  This would allow DE to actively control the amount a power could be used within a specific amount of time.  The cool-downs wouldn't have to be too extensive, but enough to make a noticeable difference, and it would allow for some stricter casting limits on skills that straight-up lock down the battlefield.

 

What benefit would this have on Warframe?  Not only would it give DE more control over skill balance.  Not only would it eliminate drinking-bird scenarios, but... skills could get a buff!  Currently, a number of skills were nerfed to keep them from dominating the game, and other, power-strength based damage abilities are underpowered.  All these skills could get the buff they deserve, and become as effective as they ought to be, because it would make frame abilities exactly what they were meant to be in the first place: situational.  Something else a cool-down does?  It forces players to use MORE THAN ONE SKILL PER FRAME!  This is huge.  Too many builds focus a one-skill playstyle.  If cool-downs were a thing, you'd be using your other skills after the first one enters cool-down.

 

What would this look like in the end-game?  A bunch of frames, all with their unique skills, all with their unique builds to maximize their damage, or efficiency, or cool-down, or range, duration, whatever; all these frames casting a plethora of skills as they jump around killing, seeking cover when necessary, and working together to achieve their goal.  No more would a single Excalibur stand in the middle of a map spamming RJ.  No more would a Valkyr have Hysteria up 100% of the time.  No more would a cryo be 100% defended by a Snowglobe/Vortex/Cataclysm/Undertow/etc...

 

 

I know I will probably get hate for the above idea, but it was the only one I could come up with.  If others find a way to resolve the drinking-bird dilemma, please help out.  That is our real problem here.  Viver was simply a victim.

Edited November 14, 2014 by Ithloniel

[MuggsBG]

Our ‘press 4 to win’ ultimates are metered primarily by the supply of energy.

 

This is what your team should focus on as there are a lot simpler fixes for it than a master redesign of all AOE, LoS implementation and most of all AI behavior (I've heard it's a b*tch). Examples include: cooldowns for EV and energy plates; diminishing returns based on range from the EV target (ironically the same mechanic that shield polarize uses for damage); "overheat"/"charge up" mechanic for damaging abilities which nerfs/buffs them the more/less you use them; etc.

 

As for the Syndicate system - if the idea behind it is to get people to play more missions then you should tie it to the missions' goals which includes the random factor they already have. Exterminate should yield rep per target; Mobile Defence - rep per terminal defended + rep per enemies killed WHILE defending; Capture - rep multiplier per target + rep per kills; Sabotage - rep per kills + rep multiplier for each cache found. In the case of Mobile defence this is a fix in itself for the random factor being tied to the same rewards as getting more terminals to defend actually isn't such a bad thing now. It will also encourage people to not rush through Capture as we all know how fast they can be done.

Endless missions should yield rewards per wave/minute/successful excavation but more importantly you should earn a stacking rep multiplier per rotation. Tying rep to experience gain (essentially enemy levels) is not only gating low level players from acquiring a decent amount per time played, but is also forcing higher tier players to only play what gives the most possible which is reverse-gating. That being said you should tie it somehow to the mastery rank/playtime/missions completed.

 

Thank you for the honest apology and I wish best of luck to the DE team!

[holdenagincourt]

I'm really convinced that this is a "game mode versus rewards" issue and not a "Warframe power four versus energy" issue. I very strongly believe that fundamentally altering the frames with which your players have fallen in love is not the answer to this issue.

 

There need to be better rewards and probably even exclusive rewards for other game modes. Please, if you can, review the end of mission rewards for things like the Capture game mode. The rewards are really undesirable and the drop rate for keys is very low. If this were changed, people wouldn't feel compelled to play only a small portion of your/our game for what they want to get done. Make Capture drop T4 keys, rare resources, and maybe even exclusive things (maybe make it the only source of Void Capture missions). Perhaps make each mission type grant a unique sigil after doing it enough times, one that ranks up and becomes more elaborate as you do it more.

 

Capture is just one example out of dozens I can think of. I've been playing since March 2013 and I'm more convinced than ever that the fundamental issue that needs to be addressed is one of game mode versus rewards (and of course, the fairness and accessibility of those rewards). The warframes are comparatively in a much better position, both in terms of enjoyability and game balance.

[Judgebanks]

Tie energy to melee as an energy build source from channeling that demands more from your stamina pool, channeling builds and mods then become useful.

 

In order to use abilities Tenno must first demonstrate their melee prowess, in doing so they are rewarded with the energy needed to use abilities. Inflating the energy pool would be paramount to allow for a finer tuning of energy spent and gain, for example energy would go from 150 to 15000.

 

This allows for Warframe abilities to still feel strong when they are used and at the same time circumvent the "Spam 4 to win" issue.