Saryn Contagious Skill

[IfritKajiTora]

Contagious just add Posion damage to meele weapon and the damage is smal before it was making melee weapon 2x stronger now it's too weak. While using Contagious we can see poison on her hands.

Why not make something similar to what Ember had before. Losing behind a smoke of toxin, leaving toxin fluid on the floor and near enemies saryn around 2-3 meters get poison damage per second. It will automaticly boost her in melee combat because of touching enemies, and debuff their armor by 30%.

Edited November 17, 2014 by IfritKajiTora

[Drazhar14]

A poison cloud surrounding you like a toxic ancient would be awesome! 

Edited November 17, 2014 by Drazhar14

[OverlordMcGeek]

any idea is better than her current 3rd so I will support

[IfritKajiTora]

any idea is better than her current 3rd so I will support

 

A poison cloud surrounding you like a toxic ancient would be awesome! 

Nice supporting without giving thump up.

[Wurdyburd]

The visual effect was just copy-pasted from weapon toxic effect onto her, which is lazy. Visuals definitely need rework. More than that though, Contagion needs a buff, or change. It feels like there's little to no boost while using it, the duration isn't great, and other than the extra damage there's really no reason why you should need extra poison damage. It's assumed that you'd have poison damage mods on your weapons if you needed it [though they can be a chore to find if you don't have one already], so I suppose Contagion could grant you that, but otherwise nobody uses it.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Wurdyburd

[IfritKajiTora]

The visual effect was just copy-pasted from weapon toxic effect onto her, which is lazy. Visuals definitely need rework. More than that though, Contagion needs a buff, or change. It feels like there's little to no boost while using it, the duration isn't great, and other than the extra damage there's really no reason why you should need extra poison damage. It's assumed that you'd have poison damage mods on your weapons if you needed it [though they can be a chore to find if you don't have one already], so I suppose Contagion could grant you that, but otherwise nobody uses it.

I was thinking about Contagious buffing melee and all her skills. But it could be just like Ember Accelerant skill. so I changed mind to make something like poison cloud and leaving poison fluid on the ground hurting enemeis and reducing their armor for melee to get more damage.

[Azawarau]

A poison cloud surrounding you like a toxic ancient would be awesome! 

This would be nice

 

Though itd clash with her 4 a bit for duration

 

Still nice

 

 

EERRRR on second thought it kinda clashes with the snake theme as well

[Jin_Kazama]

If im honest its kinda handy, just make a pure electric melee build, then when someone strong comes, whip your your 3, and bOOM corrosive damage

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1 OP

[MechaKnight]

any idea is better than her current 3rd so I will support

Very true. Here's a chunk from my own thread, and another chunk from Archwizard's

 

 

Contagion

>Utterly horrible: We don't see very many players who actually like the way this skill is conceived currently. For damage, it scales in a sub-par manner compared to abilities. For utility, it is purely restricted to melee, and some players do not like how the poison element alters their carefully prepared elemental combos on their melee weapon. For defense, it doesn't give any of the aforementioned qualities above. Generally, melee warframe abilities focus on: cloaking, damage reduction, healing, damage dealing. Contagion doesn't do any of these well enough.

>>Solutions: Many solutions. Fixing any of the aforementioned problems can help. There are also more interesting ways to rebuild this ability, such as toxic emanation, a rework of the old Overheat, general damage reduction, counter-offensive damage dealing, energy/health generation per hit, use on other weapons besides melee, teamwork aspect that helps the team, and many, many more. Reading the Community Suggestions section is highly recommended.

Toggles are being discussed for fixing, but at this point this skill is so bad the toggle possibility isn't the problem.

>>Community Suggested Solutions

>It should leave a mist (toxic/viral/corrosive/gas) that stays on the ground and spreads over an area to deal damage over time for enemies within it.

>It should emanate a cloud from Saryn as she's mobile.

>Enemies hit by a melee weapon during Contagion's duration should emanate a toxic cloud from each themselves that will harm themselves and others.

>It can cover Saryn in spines, and enemies that collide physically with her can take damage and be stunned.

>It should provide toxic element buffs to her primary and secondary weapons as well as her melee weapon.

>paralyzing toxin aura that gradually reduces the attack/movement speed of enemies in range

>protective aura that increases Saryn's resistance to knockdowns and damage (a toxin variant of Overheat perhaps)

>It can spread to buff teammates.

>Inverse-Venom: spores grow on Saryn. If enemies attack Saryn, in will deal toxin/corrosive/gas/viral (one choice) to surrounding enemies.

>Melee projectiles: swinging your melee weapon can toss toxic sludge onto enemies from a distance.

>>Ability Drafts

I’m sure most of us agree that Contagion is an awful ability to use as of now, but let’s get constructive. It seems that the most popular suggestions as to how to fix Contagion is to use a derivative of the old Overheat. I will consider this retired ability along with current in-game warframe melee abilities of similar nature to come to an agreeable conclusion.

The most ideal comparison for a melee ability to start with as a base is Valkyr’s Warcry, with consideration of Ash’s and Loki’s melee bonus limits. It has the same point cost as Contagion, and is accepted as a balanced melee ability.

At base, the bonuses this ability contributes are:

50% ally speed buff

50% ally armor buff

30% enemy debuff

The ability has a 25 meter range, and lasts for 15 seconds. It costs 75 energy.

Compared to Contagion’s single 75% poison damage for 20 seconds, it’s far superior. I’ll do my best to approximate these bonuses to Saryn, and find some alternatives.

Our community seems to want most of all, damage reduction and toxic emanation from Saryn, which is definitely within the domain of Overheat. However, this ability was retired, due to the nature of the warframe it was applied to, and possible imbalance. I’ll list the bonuses just the same. The bonuses are:

200 fire damage within 0.5 meters of the caster (not scaled off power strength or power range)

40% damage reduction (scaled with power strength)

For 20 seconds (scaled off power duration), for a cost of 50 energy.

That’s Overheat. Clearly it confers a bonus for being close to enemies, but it did not give incentive to be close all the time or perform melee, so players just put it on for protection and kept using guns. A true melee ability has to have melee incentive.

I’m pretty sure 50 energy is too cheap for what Overheat did, so 75 energy is the first adjustment.

Secondly, it goes without saying the fire damage will be changed to toxin, but to make this ability appeal to melee, it must be merged with Valkyr’s Warcry to give this ability melee incentive.

The damage reduction should also scale with power, but the base amount needs to be discussed for balance. Alternatively, we can go the route of buffing armor, similar to Valkyr’s Warcry. The following discussion will compare the warframes, assuming maxed Vitality, Steel Fiber, and Redirection is worn by both.

Let’s consider Valkyr first.

She has 600 base armor, and 100 base health. She will gain an additional +200 HP at rank 30.

The calculation for effective health points (EHP) is:

Effective Health = Base Health * (1 + (Armor / 300))

So Valkyr has with maxed Vitality and Steel Fiber: 3848 EHP, plus 370 shields with Redirection, she will have 4218 points of damage resistance.

While under the effect of Warcry, at base power strength she will have 5402 effective health.

She will have a mild 370 shield afterwards.

This totals to 5772 points of damage resistance.

If Warcry is maxed in power strength, Valkyr will have 7406.66 EHP, and the shields will bring her damage total to 7776 points.

Saryn has more health points, but lower armor. Her base EHP with Vitality and Steel Fiber is: 2314.35 EHP, with 740 shields on top, she will take 3054 damage before she gets floored.

With Warcry at base, she has 2916.525 EHP, and with power strength maxed Warcry, she has 3693.33075 EHP, and with 740 shields on top, 4433 damage.

Saryn with this armor boosting scheme will have 57% Valkyr’s damage limit before getting floored. To approach this limit, the armor multiplier needs a significant buff, but the only reason why Valkyr’s buff was shared amongst the team was because it was planned that no other warframe would have so much armor, and therefore an adjusted version for Saryn could not share its benefit with the team for reason of being too powerful. Other bonuses will have to be conferred to the team.

Let’s try to bring Saryn to between 80% to 85% of the damage tolerance Valkyr has. We’ll cover the remaining lost portion with a small ability bonus later. If this draft is used,

Saryn’s self-applied armor boost from Contagion would need to be…

150% armor boost at base cast of the skill would confer 4120.875 EHP, and with 740 shields added on top, she will have 4860 damage. This will bring her to 84.199% of what Valkyr can tolerate at Warcry’s base armor buff. Alternatively, the buff can be 120%, and she will have 3759.57 EHP plus 740 shields, 4499 damage cap, which is 77.9% of Valkyr’s damage cap.

The power maxed version of the 150% draft would give Saryn 6451.29 EHP, and the 740 shields stacked on top will confer7191 damage tolerance. This is 92% of what Valkyr can tolerate with her version of this ability, Warcry. Alternatively, the 120% draft version will be power maxed to give 274.8% damage reduction, which will confer 5623.9 EHP, rounded down then boosted by 740 shields to give 6363 damage cap, which is 81.8% of Valkyr’s ability. So for better balance, we’ll take the draft that gives Saryn an initial armor boost of 120%, which is modifiable by power strength. The lost percentage can be compensated for by adding a small fun effect.

Alternatively to the above, we can go the simpler route and attempt to achieve the same effect using total damage reduction instead of armor boosting. Within the discussion of comparative buff effects from the original Warcry, Saryn had only 57% of the durability Valkyr has when the ability had maximum power strength. To achieve even protection from her skill using pure damage reduction, the power strength maxed iteration of the new Contagion would confer just over 75% damage reduction, so reverse-calculating down from maxed power strength, the starting damage reduction would be about 33% base. We can lower it down to 30% damage reduction, which is a loss to Saryn but otherwise the numbers are cleaner. This version is a simple, yet well-balanced approach to rebalancing Overheat’s damage reduction. It will cost 75 energy as opposed to 50, and it will confer 30% damage reduction as opposed to 40%, keeping the ability within balance of Valkyr’s Warcry. This is supposed to be a melee skill however, so it’s time to give melee incentive.

Valkyr can already boost other Valkyr players and take turns giving buffs, so we wouldn’t want to superbuff Valkyr to insane armor levels. Based on whichever one of the three drafts that are selected from what I suggested above, we’ll have the remaining to balance out:

If using the 150% base armor increasing version, we’ll have a minor 8% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

If using the 120% base armor increasing version, we have 20% of Saryn’s defense to compensate for.

If using my 30% base damage reduction version, we have practically nothing to cover for, and the additional effect can be left on the cutting room floor.

Regardless of which option you and/or the developers choose to use, we still have to compensate for that large chunk of team defense utility that was scrapped from Valkyr’s original Warcry, to suit Saryn’s personality—we’ll get there soon enough. As the original Warcry did, this will only apply to teammates and enemies within range of the initial skill cast, and will last for the duration of the ability on those affected targets. Contagion already has a timer between reuse, so appropriating a derivative of Warcry+Overheat splicing to her will work without need of adjustment, and players can use the ability as they already have been.

Valkyr’s ability granted 50% additional melee speed at base power strength, and granted 114.5% melee speed buff with maxed power strength. Enemy speed at base power strength is reduced by 30%, and at maxed power strength reduced by 68.7%.

Observing our melee mods, Attack speed is at a higher premium per percentage added than base attack damage, and elemental damage costs a bit more per percentage than base damage. So the ratio of base speed (Fury)/base damage (Pressure Point)/base element damage (Fever Strike) in the mods is 30/120/90, which is factored down to 1/4/3. So for every one percent of attack speed percentage added, we can add three percent toxin damage. So simply speaking, we take Valkyr’s melee speed boost, and convert it to toxin damage on weapons, multiplied by three. So Saryn’s conversion of this skill would confer 150% additional toxin damage at base, power strength maxed to 343.5% toxin damage added to melee weapons, for all of your teammates. This converts Valkyr’s team bonus to something that makes sense for Saryn’s slower, toxic nature, and is still within limits of Ash’s and Loki’s cloak melee damage buff of 400%.

We still have to compensate for the missing half of team bonuses. It’s fair to say that team bonuses are worth as much as enemy debuffs, so this is an option to consider. This all has to happen within range of the ability itself.

To compensate for half of the team bonus lost, I’ll convert it directly to harmful effect applied to enemies. I opt for 200 toxin damage applied to all enemies within the area with a 100% forced proc chance. Toxin proc deals 50% the initial damage, so enemies will generally take 100 damage per second for 9 ticks within 8 seconds, which will be 900 damage total after 8 seconds. The logic for this skill is Ember’s Fire Storm ability with partial effectiveness. Fire Storm deals 150 damage per tick base. It deals one tick at the start, and one tick per second thereafter, for a total of 21 ticks of damage at base, equating to 3150 damage. Since Warcry has 25 meters initial range, Saryn’s new Contagion will also have this range. The 25 meter instant effect with range scaling is weighed against Ember’s persistent trap with duration scaling, on equal basis, then divided by three since this feature is supposed to be worth a third of an established warframe ability of equal point value. Alternatively, we can replace this toxic offensive effect with lifesteal on melee weapons for the entire team. This will help the team, and allow Saryn to be alongside Valkyr to provide a different team buff. The life strike will have a value of 4% life strike per hit.

So far so good, all that’s left is to consider a unique effect applied to Saryn herself to cover the missing chunk of the defense value the skill should have given. What we have so far is…

Contagion:

Within 25 meters instantly, applies various effects to teammates and enemies, which once applied lasts for a duration of 15 seconds if the effect is meant to be persistent. This ability scales with power strength, range, and duration.

To teammates:

Instead of a 50% speed buff to team melee weapons, grant a 150% (strength modifiable) toxin damage buff to team melee weapons. This damage effect should not combine with already existing elements on weapons, but should be added separately after. It will last for the duration of the ability.

Instead of granting a 50% armor increase to allies, apply 200 toxin damage (strength modifiable) with 100% proc chance to enemies within ability range. It is an instant effect, so it will not be affected by power duration. It is a single hit of toxin with 100% status chance (always happens), and the status will only last for 8 seconds. Alternatively, this can be replaced with 4% life strike on all teammate melee weapons for the duration of the ability.

Both Warcry and Contagion will apply the same 30% debuff to enemy speed. This effect will last for the duration of the ability.

All that’s left to cover for is the possible loss of Saryn’s defense from the adaptation of Warcry, based on which draft you chose to use. A mild yet helpful offensive effect should do the trick. If you used the 150% armor buff base, we compensate for the 8% defense loss with 10 toxin damage per second aura around Saryn within 0.5 meters of herself. This range does not scale with power range mods. If you went with the 120% armor buff base, it should be a 25 toxin damage per second aura within 0.5 meters of herself. If the 30% damage reduction draft was chosen, I suppose this feature need not be here.

This is my first draft of my Contagion overhaul, kept within balance best I could. It’s still a work in progress, so do offer constructive guidance, and hopefully [DE] will consider these ideas for the Contagion rework, because it sure needs one.

 

 

 

Saryn

Far as I can tell, Saryn was intended to be a melee frame, or at best mid-range. She has above-average defense like a melee would need, relatively low range on her direct-damage abilities, and an ability that makes her melee attacks deal more elemental damage. Her major issue is that, since Damage 2.0, the Poison/Toxic element in itself isn’t all that effective, since it doesn’t ignore all forms of defense anymore – thus making Contagion less effective as a damage skill, and reducing her appeal in melee. To make matters worse, it costs 75 energy for a buff that only affects Saryn herself, and only with melee attacks; if she doesn't have a melee weapon equipped, then it becomes completely useless. Speed and Warcry completely blow it out of the water, since they grant a substantial boost to the whole party (and, between Speed's lower cost and Warcry's debuff, are more cost effective to boot!). It's been repeatedly called a useless and forgettable ability, so perhaps it's time for Saryn to... shed her skin, so to speak.

Archetype: Mid-Range Debuffer.

Suggested changes:

- Venom spores are more responsive to area-effect attacks, each melee attack will also pop at least one spore, and any unpopped spores on a slain enemy will automatically detonate (without spreading the effect) against nearby foes.

- Molt transfers all buffs, debuffs and statuses from the casting Saryn to the decoy upon summoning. When the Molt fades or is destroyed, explosion damage is increased by total damage it received.

- Contagion replaced with “Allure”: Grants damage mitigation to the caster, with a small Gas damage aura surrounding Saryn capable of popping Venom spores.

- Miasma has a 100% status chance per tick. Power Duration adds additional ticks with stagger; reducing Power Duration no longer increases damage dealt.

Yes, Allure is both a perfume pun (THOSE HEELS and fungal growths THOUGH) and a revival of Overheat. Scott has already said Overheat was not right in Ember’s hands, and I’m inclined to agree – it’s not fit for someone intended to spam Fireball from half a room away, but it’s perfect for someone with Saryn's values of range and defense. Plus, it opens the door to let Saryn use every Toxin-based element (she’s already got three!). With the change to Molt, the player can now transfer the mitigation to the Molt to make it last longer (plus Gas damage for those melee enemies), culminating in one final explosion of poison damage (or two, since Molt does more damage if it lasts the whole duration - benefiting from mitigation). Alternately, players can Leeroy Jenkins with Allure up for maximum Venom effectiveness, bringing Saryn back to her glory days of a hundred DoT ticks a second. Meanwhile, Miasma has armor-reducing DoT to take advantage of the way Corrosive procs stack (THAT’s how you do an anti-armor skill, NOT Terrify), skyrocketing Saryn’s damage utility against all factions.

 

 

These are not the only ways to fix Saryn however, but these seem decent.

 

I've been noticing many Saryn rework threads appearing on the forum, and I'm glad for it. The community has finally found this warframe, and it is becoming more apparent that the community agrees it needs a rework.

[IfritKajiTora]

Thanks for posting it all.

There are also more interesting ways to rebuild this ability, such as toxic emanation, a rework of the old Overheat

Thats what I had in mind. Embers body was on fire with that skill, and I thinked about something similar to Saryn. Her body could be on toxins, leaving toxins on the ground for several seconds and from these toxins the toxic gas spread.  devouring enemies armor, and dealing some damage.

These toxins that powerful as  Aliens blood from Alien VS Predator movies.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlSthSrhh3U&t=2m25s

Edited November 18, 2014 by IfritKajiTora

[-CM-s7even]

Yes OP yes! +1