Push 4 To Win A (Insert Number Here) Look At Nuke Skills

[CY13ERPUNK]

LoS is not a realism issue. Let's just clear that up right now, because in any discussion about LoS people love to try and strawman you into oblivion with the whole "well this game isn't realistic" thing.

 

It's a balance thing. As I mentioned, it only belongs on direct-effect skills, ones where you press button and enemies are instantly damaged/stunlocked. Buff and debuff skills and soft CC/area denial skills don't need it. 

 

It's an easy way to balance out those direct-effect skills without putting convoluted limitation sets on them. 

 

and THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^ is why i am constantly giving this dude thumbs up =], i only wish that more ppl 'got it' like you do vaugahn

[vaugahn]

ahh the whole LOS thing, good for guns and bows ect bad for powers/ abilities. Too many obstacles to hinder LOS for it to be effective with abilities  range is always the better option for xray powers  in the games that use the mechanics. where LOS would be most effective<<< an open flat terrain or in the air like in  archwing intercept.

 

First off: we're speaking in hypotheticals here. Too many things do currently hinder LoS, correct. Hypothetically, though, those things would not. And that would be better. 

 

Second: the whole point of LoS is to hinder skills. I mentioned above that there are certain things that should not block skills. Well, there are also certain things that should.

 

and THIS ^^^^^^^^^^^ is why i am constantly giving this dude thumbs up =], i only wish that more ppl 'got it' like you do vaugahn

 

I'd hesitate to say that I "get it"...that's all merely my 2 cents on the issue (no more important than anyone else's :D)

[jfhsanseiIII]

I'm all for more sideways advancement. I'd like to see less power creep and more alternate affects on NPCs and players. The one concern people have with alterations is loss of power at higher levels. I'd rather see powers have more distinct changes on the gameplay. The reason frames like banshee, Vauban, and others like them are popular isn't the damage, but the extra they provide. Obviously Tanky frames should be focused on control and survival, dps frames for high damage output, and the onse I mentioned earlier for CC. Enemies shouldn't get stronger than the dps's ability to produce damage, but the should react differently. I Think it'd be in DE's best interest to focus less on making enemies more powerful but smarter and more tactical. We can still Rambo our way through the game, but we'd have to play smarter a opposed to being bullet sponges.

[Fari]

Some damage reduction from walls sounds nice, though not through other enemies.

[ensignvidiot]

The system is flawed, but its fine the way it is.

 

Think of it like this:

 

For me to get my Saryn, to clear whole rooms with a push of 4 i need:

Blind Range

Intensify

Flow

Stretch

Fleeting Expertise

Continuity ( to counter fleeting)

Natural Talent/Consitution/Streamline

Vitality/Redirection

 

Now to fit all of those mods, maxed, on my Saryn im going to need a Potato at the very least. And 1-2 (maybe three depending on aura) Forma to make it all fit.

Not to mention the farming ill need to do to aquire the 2 big corrupted mods from Vault runs. The 1 mod that ONLY drops from interception, Any rare "Core" warframe mod, and possibly several Nightmare runs to get Consitution.

 

Thats to GET the mods for the builds. How many credits and cores does it take to max out each and every single one of them? And the time to re-level Saryn from repeat Formas?

 

 

Bottom line, it takes a considerable amount of time and investment to make a Frame clear a whole room with a 4 push on the outer rim planets (Eris, Pluto, Ceres) and T4 missions.

 

It took me  a huge amount of time to get my Saryn to that level. To where she feels as powerful as I'd like her to be, to where i can farm T4 missions and not have to worry about not being able to kill things.

 

I dont want to lose that, to lose the investment in my Saryn, Ash, Loki, Nova, Rhino, or any others.

Or any of the weapons that ive Forma'd several times, and farmed and maxed mods for.

 

 

 

You are accusing the "Endgame" numbers for being too strong and making the game too trivial. But it takes time to be able to solo Defense missions on Pluto (Yeah, Vortex helps with infested... but you need a strong weapon to kill em. And Snowglobe helps against Corpus... but it better be strong when the Supras come in).

 

 

We (the players) climbed the Mastery Mountain to ascend to God-Tier. Please stop asking DE to strip these tenno of their power. I enjoy feeling awesome.

[CY13ERPUNK]

First off: we're speaking in hypotheticals here. Too many things do currently hinder LoS, correct. Hypothetically, though, those things would not. And that would be better. 

 

Second: the whole point of LoS is to hinder skills. I mentioned above that there are certain things that should not block skills. Well, there are also certain things that should.

 

 

I'd hesitate to say that I "get it"...that's all merely my 2 cents on the issue (no more important than anyone else's :D)

 

fair enough, but i like to give kudos where i think they are due, the forums already have so few voices of rational thinking, its just nice to hear another positive/constructive one

[Brozime]

Spoiler alert the skills in the game are underpowered and the Corrupted mods are the only thing making them any good compared to guns

[ensignvidiot]

Spoiler alert the skills in the game are underpowered and the Corrupted mods are the only thing making them any good compared to guns

 

 

^ this, right here, this is it.

 

Without boosting and maximization.. most powers (aside from the really awesome Croud Control abilities [blind, Chaos, etc]) really fall in effectiveness when you play in higher level content.

[(XBOX)ShapelessHorr0r]

Nuking is required A LOT.

Unless of course DE wishes to reduce the number of enemies, there is no skill or balance argument against them.

Not to mention certain frames are balanced specifically around AOE abilities.

[ensignvidiot]

Nuking is required A LOT.

Unless of course DE wishes to reduce the number of enemies, there is no skill or balance argument against them.

Not to mention certain frames are balanced specifically around AOE abilities.

 

but they will never reduce the enemies

 

Its already been said that even a low-level Tenno should be able to handle 20-10 to one no problem because of their superior training, reflexes, and void powers.

 

Its why enemies need to either send small armies against us, or a specilist of equal peer to match us (im talking the assassins, and bosses).

 

Though, I would love a level or two on the starmap where i just fight all bosses. Would make for a challenging map IMO.

[KarmicRex]

I'm all for more sideways advancement. I'd like to see less power creep and more alternate affects on NPCs and players. The one concern people have with alterations is loss of power at higher levels. I'd rather see powers have more distinct changes on the gameplay. The reason frames like banshee, Vauban, and others like them are popular isn't the damage, but the extra they provide. Obviously Tanky frames should be focused on control and survival, dps frames for high damage output, and the onse I mentioned earlier for CC. Enemies shouldn't get stronger than the dps's ability to produce damage, but the should react differently. I Think it'd be in DE's best interest to focus less on making enemies more powerful but smarter and more tactical. We can still Rambo our way through the game, but we'd have to play smarter a opposed to being bullet sponges.

 

The problem of warframe i think is the huge ammount of mmorpg players coming and not accepting that the game isn´t one of them. What i love about warframe is that we don´t have the dps, the controller, the healer... Some frames can do things that usually are done in those roles, but you can play warframe the way you want. It is a co-op game. This was that the game is about. Playing with friends the way you want. Really, here we go again with this MMO kind thread. Why you people care SO MUCH on how others are playing? if you don´t like to spam 1 2 3 or 4 don´t do it. you have the right to chose. You can do insane demage with trinity or tank with volt. Use only melees or only guns. 

 

A big no to this thread. For me it is just another one that has as main objective to force players to play the way someone usually think to be correct. 

[jfhsanseiIII]

The problem of warframe i think is the huge ammount of mmorpg players coming and not accepting that the game isn´t one of them. What i love about warframe is that we don´t have the dps, the controller, the healer... Some frames can do things that usually are done in those roles, but you can play warframe the way you want. It is a co-op game. This was that the game is about. Playing with friends the way you want. Really, here we go again with this MMO kind thread. Why you people care SO MUCH on how others are playing? if you don´t like to spam 1 2 3 or 4 don´t do it. you have the right to chose. You can do insane demage with trinity or tank with volt. Use only melees or only guns.

A big no to this thread. For me it is just another one that has as main objective to force players to play the way someone usually think to be correct.

Oh that's not what I'm trying to say at all. frames can fit any role they want, however some do it better than others. My point was less about roles but how the enemies could be reworked into more interesting units and less bullet sponges. Power creep should be looked at and then we can see how differing frame abilities play out. No MMO comparisons. Ultimately my phone I'm saying power creep bad flexibility and actual challenge good.

Edited for weirdness on my part. I don't english well sometimes. This was one of those times.

Edited November 18, 2014 by jfhsanseiIII

[Dr_Who_]

Please shut up already. "Nerf this" "nerf that". shut up and play the game. 

[CY13ERPUNK]

Please shut up already. "Nerf this" "nerf that". shut up and play the game. 

 

you are exactly the problem on these forums =[

[ROXXXY]

All I need to say is that a long time ago mods were a lot more powerful so...........

[Xeo_Nespydonum]

I think nukes should mostly be removed from the warframe ability pools; having a nuke should be something very rare.  Pressing 4 to kill everything around you is okay for awhile but gets boring fast, nukes show up in the majority of warframe power sets, the same for the generic "throw a ball of element" abilities.

 

Warframe powers should be unique and make you play the game differently, there should not be "tropes" among the warframes in their design, or it should at least be a minimal; having a diverse collection of playstyles within the power sets would greatly increase staying power with the gameplay.

 

I'm not saying down with nukes entirely; just not having them be a generic thing that half the warframes have; all the elemental warframes should have a nuke and "element ball" ability and to make it have more depth; make them have some way of combining with their counterparts (and give Volt something less situational)

[Otaiken]

Press X for everything to die is the very descripiton of boring, lazy gameplay. But when games DO give you abilities like this, they also usually come with a hefty CD. Not only for balance reasons, but also so it wo't get too boring.

 

There are ways to make damage dealing/caster abilities more interesting. Why not plop down personal turret. Use it and mow down wave of enemies with it... that in itself is also pretty boring cliche, but still requires at least some input from the player beyond press one button. And the result is the same more or less.

 

Imho blanket changes like LOS won't solve this problem. We need a redesign of those abilities, but that is hard... which is why I doubt it will happen nay time soon. It could be small changes. For example Saryn, she is a poison frame, make Miasma spread from enemy to enemy. Make it single target and then it will spread, instead of instant AoE circle of death. Buff the damage a bit and the result is the same, but it's a start. And no, Miasma should not be a panic button, you have Molt for that!

 

Also, why do people try to counter the criticism of these abilities with "Well, it sucks at higher levels.". You know that is not a good thing right? These abilities are essentially balanced by being unusable above certain level. So everything under 30 = trivial. Anything above 30 = useless. That's not exactly a good design. If those abilities had some interesting mechanics to them and some actual weaknesses, then maybe you could balance their damage for higher levels.

Edited November 18, 2014 by LocoWithGun

[Elenortirie]

The problem of warframe i think is the huge ammount of mmorpg players coming and not accepting that the game isn´t one of them. What i love about warframe is that we don´t have the dps, the controller, the healer... Some frames can do things that usually are done in those roles, but you can play warframe the way you want. It is a co-op game. This was that the game is about. Playing with friends the way you want. Really, here we go again with this MMO kind thread. Why you people care SO MUCH on how others are playing? if you don´t like to spam 1 2 3 or 4 don´t do it. you have the right to chose. You can do insane demage with trinity or tank with volt. Use only melees or only guns. 

 

A big no to this thread. For me it is just another one that has as main objective to force players to play the way someone usually think to be correct. 

 

wanna see that insane dps on trin.... or tanking volt :)

 

and btw we have here dps, aoe dps CC tanks and healers.....

difference from here and regular WoW-like mmo is that we don't HAVE TO have tank-dps-healer squad to succeed even on high levels.... (and usually on high levels healers become inpractical as at some point if yoou get damaged you are basically dead so.....

 

I think nukes should mostly be removed from the warframe ability pools; having a nuke should be something very rare.  Pressing 4 to kill everything around you is okay for awhile but gets boring fast, nukes show up in the majority of warframe power sets, the same for the generic "throw a ball of element" abilities.

 

Warframe powers should be unique and make you play the game differently, there should not be "tropes" among the warframes in their design, or it should at least be a minimal; having a diverse collection of playstyles within the power sets would greatly increase staying power with the gameplay.

 

I'm not saying down with nukes entirely; just not having them be a generic thing that half the warframes have; all the elemental warframes should have a nuke and "element ball" ability and to make it have more depth; make them have some way of combining with their counterparts (and give Volt something less situational)

 

here you have one of reasons why I like Valkyrs design - no "practical" "nuke" on skills :)

[although 30 seconds of invulnerability is powerfull stuff....]

[Otaiken]

Btw what happened to set up and kill? That's usually how mass murder works in games when it comes to caster characters. You need to set up first, be it personal buff, getting stacks going or priming enemies and THEN you explode everything. It's much more satisfying and balanced that way.

 

That's about the simplest form of nuking you can implement in your game.

[Sakatchi]

-I am mad I can no longer exploit viver, so I'm going to make a book about why aoes are bad-

 

Is what i read in your post.

 

You make some good points, but at the same time you failed to adress something important. Well two things actually

 

1.Mods that affect abilitys

2.Chaining Ablitlys

 

1.This is self explanitory I should think. There are a ton of mods out now that you can get that make your abilitys stupid strong. This is a slippery slope though, if you nerf these, you'd invalidiate a lot of work since they are diffacult (read expensive) to get and max. And you could make ablilitys weaker this way, but for some content you need strong skills. T4 missions for example.

 

2.Viver was possable not cause Cali could press four and nuke the entire aera, but because someone thought up a optimal way to synergize 3 number four skills together for the maximum effectiveness (lets just call them ults for simplicity).

 

So trinity fed cali and mag energy, mag removed sheilds from the enemys and replenished the groups so they didnt die, and cali pressed four and nuked the entire aera.  And while its true there were 3 frames exploiting their fours lack of los, they needed to work together to get it acomplished.

 

I personally feel that finding synergys like this is a GOOD thing. It just depends on the application, and that depends on the people and their goals.

[UFOLoche]

you are exactly the problem on these forums =[

 

I'd say the problem is people crying for nerfs or "reworks"(AKA "nerfs but I don't want to call them nerfs") even though the powers are fine(Christ, Saryn is JUST NOW getting used after months, and people already want a nerf).

[Elenortirie]

Is what i read in your post.

 

You make some good points, but at the same time you failed to adress something important. Well two things actually

 

1.Mods that affect abilitys

2.Chaining Ablitlys

 

1.This is self explanitory I should think. There are a ton of mods out now that you can get that make your abilitys stupid strong. This is a slippery slope though, if you nerf these, you'd invalidiate a lot of work since they are diffacult (read expensive) to get and max. And you could make ablilitys weaker this way, but for some content you need strong skills. T4 missions for example.

 

2.Viver was possable not cause Cali could press four and nuke the entire aera, but because someone thought up a optimal way to synergize 3 number four skills together for the maximum effectiveness (lets just call them ults for simplicity).

 

So trinity fed cali and mag energy, mag removed sheilds from the enemys and replenished the groups so they didnt die, and cali pressed four and nuked the entire aera.  And while its true there were 3 frames exploiting their fours lack of los, they needed to work together to get it acomplished.

 

I personally feel that finding synergys like this is a GOOD thing. It just depends on the application, and that depends on the people and their goals.

one issue - shield polarise is number 2 not 4 :P

 

ulti is crush which "just" deal 1k mag damage in aoe....

[LtZefar]

Warframe powers should be unique and make you play the game differently, there should not be "tropes" among the warframes in their design, or it should at least be a minimal; having a diverse collection of playstyles within the power sets would greatly increase staying power with the gameplay.

You can play the way you want. Some like nukes, some like support and some like to go full out run and gun.

 

Just because you hate something doesn't mean it has to be nerfed or removed.

[Nlim]

Actually my biggest issue with aoe nukes is just how many frames have them which kind of kills diversity and the uniquness. They clearly were designed to be this awesome show piece of a frame but since evry other frame has them they become quite meaningless.

And they are mostly on the older frames which just shows to me it is time for a redesign since they are outdated - they should just change 90% of those aoe nukes in something else, special to the Warframes theme.

[HikariAi]

I don't think they're particulary worried about that? You can only do that with weak enemies. It's just that there is no content for 1400+ Conclave besides endless missions. So very strong frame vs weaklings enemies = slaughter.