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[DE]Glen

Survival Spawning

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Here's a screenshot of an upcoming hud addition.

 

Mnl7FDr.jpg

 

In public games it's easy for players to inadvertently waste some life support by activating more than one capsule at the same time. Some players like to coordinate by using chat, but this takes time and isn't always seen immediately.

 

To make capsule status more visible, all active and incoming capsules are now displayed below the life support bar.  Blue icons on the left are incoming, white in the middle are available, and flashing icons (can't tell in the screenshot) at the right are capsules currently being activated.

 

P.S: Watching the casual carousel stream with much interest :)

Would be nice for these icons also show up on minimap - to see what capsules incoming and what already available.

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z9vjWZu.jpg?1

 
Some attention was also given to the higher-difficulties as well. Historically we compensated for various pathing and spawning problems by increasing the enemy counts but this is not healthy for performance on low-end machines. Since there have been quite a few small tweaks and improvements to how spawns flow towards players the more extreme counts should not longer be necessary and were reduced slightly (factoring this into the life-support drop rate, of course).
 
It is worth mentioning that fixing the personal life-support drop-rate and tweaking the spawn counts are only the most obvious changes being made; under the hood are a bunch of more subtle improvements to how enemies hunt down players. For example: historically many enemy types would only jog from where they were spawned (jogging allows shooting, sprinting is faster); one thing we found was that Infested enemies were still jogging even though they weren’t carrying a weapon!
 
One last thing: this obsession with Survival may seem extreme however the great thing is that almost all of the low-level AI changes will actually improve other game-types too (Excavation, Defense, Mobile-Defense, and Interception).
 
We tested these changes internally and even though the adjustments were small the impact was quite noticeable -- we ended up playing all afternoon it was so much fun! These changes should go live on PC in today’s hotfix and we are really excited to hear about your impressions -- we still have areas to polish but this should be a big step forward for a lot of missions!

 

So you definitely got the spawn rate fix? Is the change, new AI pathing in the maps? Will the players notice the big impact with the pathing and the spawns? What should we look out for? or have you just increased the sprinting state so that they can catch up to the player location area, because you were talking about how at one stage in the engine state if the monsters couldn't find the player group they'd "go back to sleep" as you put it. Where as if the monsters were in range they'd latch on to 1 of the 4 players and select that player as the main target.

 

Edited by Kinjeto

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I would also like to suggest maybe an addition to allow Tenno to cancel a life support. incase two people active two different one at the same time.

 

It should be 'easy' fix:

I would suggest player have to hold the button during entire activation process. If player lets go - activation cancelled.

Spinning Reload Circle Thingy on cross-hair could serve as indication of process.

 

It could also increase difficulty because knockdown from enemy would interrupt activation, so, support and cooperation maybe be very necessary.

 

To not to make it unplayable for low level players, it could work like this:

Player holds down the button, circular progress bar used for reload starts to fill up.

If player lets go for whatever reason, progress bar starts to go back to empty state at the SAME SPEED as filling up,

so if someone is knock down, another player can step in and finish the activation, it just takes little bit longer.

 

Perhaps Sanctuary from sentinel could kick in.

 

 

I agree with suggestions about audio cues. We have heartbeat when we are low on health, sound of shallow breathing could help, so when you hear shallow breath combined with erratic heartbeat... :)

 

 

 

Another nice idea i saw on this thread is not stopping drops of personal LS modules after air ran out. I like it a lot.

 

It could add truly hardcore mode. Every time player picks up LS module, air goes from 0 to 4% and starts to go down to 0 again. During that period, health and shield would regenerate to some extent, maybe 10% of normal value. If players manage to get Air back, let's say 10-15%,  Lotus would notice that tenno are still there and starts sending LS of her own, while overall difficulty of enemies would increase. Just an idea :)

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Yeah but you've still got to go to the location and activate it and there are multiple pods around. Also as Glen explained it to me "the challenge is getting to the air canister" so having the extra knowledge of when the canister dropped and more importantly where on the minimap the canister dropped would make things 'easier' per-se.

but the game already does this. Lotus tells you when a pod is incoming, when one finishes warping in, and when someone uses one.

 

it's the same information we already have, but put in visual form. 

 

 

 

do you remember the Nightmare Modifier that removed the map? heh. there's certainly good reason why that Modifier isn't a thing anymore.

it was akin to driving to a city you've never been to before, and trying to find a specific building. without a map. or GPS. or asking anyone for directions.

 

you're going to be driving for like, a week looking for that building.

 

 

besides, the Map doesn't even place icons at their actual location, much to my disappoint. they just stack on top of each other at the doorways between rooms. rather than what makes sense, and the Large Map placing icons where the thing is actually located.

 

 

 

if getting to the Life Support isn't difficult (and yeah, it usually isn't), then why not fix that... instead of changing something else. the more difficult a Survival is intended to be, the more Enemies will get between you and the Life Support Pods.

more resistance means it'll take longer to get to the Life Support Pod.

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I would also like to suggest maybe an addition to allow Tenno to cancel a life support. incase two people active two different one at the same time.

 

This, please.

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While yesterday we reached 60 mins using a Nekros, on T4S, I have to say, it was boring until 50mins. The number of enemies is underwhelming, we where just running as a group from one room to another killing batches of 4-5 enemies.

 

When will we have a survival that remotely resembles the word itself? Where we have to survive, but not from O2, and yes from the swarm of enemies coming at you.

 

Indeed, the whole situation is just boring, especially if you're the Nekros.

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Better yet you could scale down the amount of icons visible to 1 or 2 in Survival in the higher tiers. That is a simple trick.

There really is no point whatsoever to changing the new hud at all in survival at higher levels. I read what you said in your previous post about learning oxygen patterns, and I don't see at all why this would keep people from learning them. All this does is tell you how many canisters are on the map, how many are spawning, and if one is being activated.

Edited by Stratego89
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I run survival for the enemies and the leveling potential, but at the moment I still feel a bit bored.

 

The main problem is that I sometimes want to run a survival solo with a destruction frame and im not encountering enough enemies by far.

 

So I have to ask this: why cant we individually increase or decrease enemy spawn with an option before starting the mission? Maybe reward the players that take more challenge with a higher percentage of exp, or nothing I dont care, I just want to massacre.

 

I think its never bad to give players more options that they can modify themselves instead of trying to find an option that fits everything personally, because you will always have some palyers that find its too much/not enough.

 

Maybe give us execution? We brutally kill an enemy with a melee attack, so we provoke the faction and they send more enemies.

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Here's a screenshot of an upcoming hud addition.

Ooh, cool.

Thought/request: Can the LS icons be split by room? (since you can have a max of 3 per room.) Would this be worth doing?

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It should work even in monochrome.  That said, if you're color blind and the new survival hud isn't clear enough, please let us know.

 

Just FYI, I'm nowhere near colour blind but I'm finding that blue really difficult to distinguish from the white. Please, please make the luminance of the colours less alike.

 

Checking the screenshot you gave in gimp the luminance difference is only 69% to 88%, really difficult to see especially as the UI element are semi-transparent hence moving background can significantly alter the luminance of UI elements second-to-second (For example when moving I find it very difficult to tell if Interception capture icons are actually flashing or if the moving background just makes it look like that)

 

Please remember that it should be obvious at a fractions of a seconds glance regardless of the noise going on around and behind the UI element.

 

How about making the ones "not ready" an outline instead?

 

E.G:

 

survival_ui.png

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Here's a screenshot of an upcoming hud addition.

 

 

 

In public games it's easy for players to inadvertently waste some life support by activating more than one capsule at the same time. Some players like to coordinate by using chat, but this takes time and isn't always seen immediately.

 

To make capsule status more visible, all active and incoming capsules are now displayed below the life support bar.  Blue icons on the left are incoming, white in the middle are available, and flashing icons (can't tell in the screenshot) at the right are capsules currently being activated.

 

P.S: Watching the casual carousel stream with much interest :)

 

If you are still working on the HUD please revisit it and make the really important things visible - the shield, health and energy bars. 

Visible bars please.  I dont know what do I have to do to convince you to make actually helpful hud where the most crucial information would be easily visible?  

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Just FYI, I'm nowhere near colour blind but I'm finding that blue really difficult to distinguish from the white. Please, please make the luminance of the colours less alike.

 

...

 

How about making the ones "not ready" an outline instead?

 

E.G:

 

survival_ui.png

 

THIS. 

 

Instead of having an 'activate' click, it should be a 'hold-to-discharge' mechanic. holding the button would gradually fill up life support, ticking 4  times per second, 1% per tick. 

 

Sanctuary should activate when discharging the life support capsule. 

 

Are the spawning changes live yet? 

 

I have just done a Rank 3 Cephalon Suda syndicate alert (enemy level 22-28). I was playing 'public', but ended up soloing as no one joined. I literally activated a barely-only-just-spawned at the very last second to hit the 10-minute mark. It was a close call to reach 10 minutes. 

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Here's a screenshot of an upcoming hud addition.

 

Mnl7FDr.jpg

 

In public games it's easy for players to inadvertently waste some life support by activating more than one capsule at the same time. Some players like to coordinate by using chat, but this takes time and isn't always seen immediately.

 

To make capsule status more visible, all active and incoming capsules are now displayed below the life support bar.  Blue icons on the left are incoming, white in the middle are available, and flashing icons (can't tell in the screenshot) at the right are capsules currently being activated.

 

P.S: Watching the casual carousel stream with much interest :)

 

Question, but have you considered a different way for Life Support to work? 

 

Right now (from what I can tell anyway) is that both Life Support Capsules and personal units only add a big chunk of oxygen, which is what I believe leads to players who are spread out activating different Capsules at the same time.

 

My thought/suggestion (which would incorporate the new icons you plan on adding) would be to have an activated Capsule instead "stop" the decreasing oxygen and instead have it "increase" the oxygen by having it gradually refill the Life Support by the appropriate amount (that the Capsule already gives).

 

This would mean we'd get much longer Survival Runs and in general can hold out a bit more even if the Capsule spawning is not being generous.

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How about making the ones "not ready" an outline instead?

 

E.G:

 

survival_ui.png

I like this idea a lot!  Note in my screenshot, the right capsule icon is flashing between blue and white, so it's more luminous than the static blue one at the right.  Still, I prefer the clarity of outlines and eliminating the need to use a colour.  The outline also corresponds nicely with the outline hologram effect of incoming capsules.

 

If you are still working on the HUD please revisit it and make the really important things visible - the shield, health and energy bars. 

Visible bars please.  I dont know what do I have to do to convince you to make actually helpful hud where the most crucial information would be easily visible?  

Send me cookies ;)  Actually I'm not the right person to convince, I work on gamemodes mostly.  Your best bet is to post 

in UI feedback.

 

Question, but have you considered a different way for Life Support to work? 

 

Right now (from what I can tell anyway) is that both Life Support Capsules and personal units only add a big chunk of oxygen, which is what I believe leads to players who are spread out activating different Capsules at the same time.

 

My thought/suggestion (which would incorporate the new icons you plan on adding) would be to have an activated Capsule instead "stop" the decreasing oxygen and instead have it "increase" the oxygen by having it gradually refill the Life Support by the appropriate amount (that the Capsule already gives).

 

This would mean we'd get much longer Survival Runs and in general can hold out a bit more even if the Capsule spawning is not being generous.

We'd considered this a long time ago, but end up with the same problem.  Whether a life support capsule adds a set amount to the bar instantly or over time, it's still a fixed amount.  You can still run into problems by 'overfilling' the bar, only with a gradual refill it's just deferred and much less readable.  You'd not only have to keep track of the amount of life support on the bar, but also whether it's moving, what direction it's moving in, and how many capsules are currently adding to it.

 

 

Ooh, cool.

Thought/request: Can the LS icons be split by room? (since you can have a max of 3 per room.) Would this be worth doing?

Do you mean split the new hud icons into 3 groups of 3, or change something on the minimap?

 

 

Would be nice for these icons also show up on minimap - to see what capsules incoming and what already available.

Was thinking the same, it may look clearer with the outline changes above plus matching minimap icons.

Edited by Whirrrrr
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I like this idea a lot!  Note in my screenshot, the right capsule icon is flashing between blue and white, so it's more luminous than the static blue one at the right.  Still, I prefer the clarity of outlines and eliminating the need to use a colour.  The outline also corresponds nicely with the outline hologram effect of incoming capsules.

 

Why not both? Make it a blue outline. Increased clarity is always a good idea, and making it differ in both symbol and color is clearer than either alone. Also corresponds with the hologram effect even better.

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Please take another look at the spawns. T4 Survival can still run out of air easily even with a nekros. I think Air is an anti-turtling mechanic, not the prime (pun not intended) reason to leave.

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Here's a screenshot of an upcoming hud addition.

 

Mnl7FDr.jpg

 

In public games it's easy for players to inadvertently waste some life support by activating more than one capsule at the same time. Some players like to coordinate by using chat, but this takes time and isn't always seen immediately.

 

To make capsule status more visible, all active and incoming capsules are now displayed below the life support bar.  Blue icons on the left are incoming, white in the middle are available, and flashing icons (can't tell in the screenshot) at the right are capsules currently being activated.

 

P.S: Watching the casual carousel stream with much interest :)

Why not make it so capsules can't be activated if life support is at 70+?

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Why not make it so capsules can't be activated if life support is at 70+?

 

Gotta be honest, no reason to not make it like that. That I can think of anyway.

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I like this idea a lot!  Note in my screenshot, the right capsule icon is flashing between blue and white, so it's more luminous than the static blue one at the right.  Still, I prefer the clarity of outlines and eliminating the need to use a colour.  The outline also corresponds nicely with the outline hologram effect of incoming capsules.

 

Send me cookies ;)  Actually I'm not the right person to convince, I work on gamemodes mostly.  Your best bet is to post 

in UI feedback.

 

We'd considered this a long time ago, but end up with the same problem.  Whether a life support capsule adds a set amount to the bar instantly or over time, it's still a fixed amount.  You can still run into problems by 'overfilling' the bar, only with a gradual refill it's just deferred and much less readable.  You'd not only have to keep track of the amount of life support on the bar, but also whether it's moving, what direction it's moving in, and how many capsules are currently adding to it.

 

 

 

Do you mean split the new hud icons into 3 groups of 3, or change something on the minimap?

 

 

 

Was thinking the same, it may look clearer with the outline changes above plus matching minimap icons.

Now, this right here - this is good teamwork with the community and the devs! We need more of this. Now, will those cookies be Oreos or..?

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Has it been suggested to remove the 100% cap entirely? It'd be nice to be able to stock up on extremely high levels of it for some peace-of-mind, so as to further reward players for more effectively reaching capsules and such. 

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With all that talk about lowering enemy count and increasing life support drop rates to counter the performance issues on low end systems I wonder, has anyone of you thought of the resource and mod drop rate bound to enemies? Half the amount of enemies does mean half the amount of resources and mods dropped. How do you deal with that?

Over the course of the past months abilities and game modes got nerfed leaving us with a fewer and fewer amount of enemies we can kill per minute and therefor with less and less resources and mods we get out of the missions we used to play months ago to farm stuff. This game is about progress. Nerfing resource drops equals nerfing the progress especially for casual players.

Is this getting adressed in any way?

 

Also: some people just like fighting their way through a huge amount of enemies. Lowering the amount of enemies turns survivals further and further into hide and seek games. For several months now I am often standing in the middle of a room wondering where the heck all those enemies went to?

Is there any chance that we will get something like we can customize some mission parameters like general amount of enmies/enemy level?

And how about factoring the level of an enemy into his chance dropping resources and mods? Cause at the moment if I want to farm for resources and or mods it doesn't matter if I kill a level 1, 10 or 100 enemy. Please reward us for being awesome ninja warriors!

Edited by Scr4mp
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So it's going to be so easy on survival with stack the life support main capsule?aw,maybe survival would have other change and debuff also.

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We'd considered this a long time ago, but end up with the same problem.  Whether a life support capsule adds a set amount to the bar instantly or over time, it's still a fixed amount.  You can still run into problems by 'overfilling' the bar, only with a gradual refill it's just deferred and much less readable.  You'd not only have to keep track of the amount of life support on the bar, but also whether it's moving, what direction it's moving in, and how many capsules are currently adding to it.

 

 

Hello, Whirrrrr! (Man, dat so fun, yo)

 

Have you considered perhaps making life-support capsules similar to the Excavation mode, in that life support is dropped by specific units, spawned at a specific rate, having a 100% drop? 

 

This may make it more predictable, and also eases enemy prioritisation for players who need more air, or who need to get rid of stronger units first. It also adds to the immersion, I believe, since the Grineer seem to walk around with no issue with oxygen, when everyone has basically no air. This unit would, lore-wise, be the central unit for a squad of Grineer to stock up on air from. 

 

Having a unique unit to drop air supply would mean that not only is RNG no longer a factor, the rate which you spawn can be manipulated as time goes on as well, to further emphasize skill. A lot of redundancy at lower times, and just about enough (maybe a bit more) at higher timings, with a need for strategic life-support activation in between. The rate of oxygen supplied should never go below negative, though, if you're killing all of them as quick as possible. 

 

I do think this might help distinguish between the veterans and the new-comers, not just in gear, but also in skill and coordination. The higher level ones could be a completely new unit type, which is beefier, to add further to the difficulty and need to focus on specific targets after a certain point.

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attention was also given to the higher-difficulties as well. Historically we compensated for various pathing and spawning problems by increasing the enemy counts but this is not healthy for performance on low-end machines. Since there have been quite a few small tweaks and improvements to how spawns flow towards players the more extreme counts should not longer be necessary and were reduced

 

What if we LIKED having more enemies? :(

 

City of Villains had a great setting for their mayhem missions where you could set a difficulty slider to +X levels and

to make it harder, more risk and rewards, but this seems to be going against that kind of idea and instead homogenising it into lower spawns for everybody which seems to be a bit going backwards :(#

 

If people are playing the game on a playstation 4 then they can just turn the settings down if it can't handle it, or have an option for difficulty level and if they find it's too many they can turn that down, don't penalise everyone

Edited by dethkittin
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