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Psa: Enemy Accuracy And You

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More mobile, and escape-able rolls that could break into slides, or let us leap/dash to the side with ease at the very least. We need more evasive maneuvers!

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It's the ballistas that are the core of complaints, not lancers!

 

360 no scope % is nuts, they are freakin brutal.

 

The Grineer are simply too damn OP with that accuracy buff.  Seekers, Troopers, etc.

 

 

I challenge the DE team to play a Hijack mission with varying squads from 1-4 players & tell me how well it goes getting out of the 1st room alive. 

Edited by Genjinaro
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The accuracy buff has had another, hopefully unintended effect. 

 

If you are being shot at, and then enter some sort of invisibility state, like Shade's Ghost, Kubrow's Stalk, Loki Invisibility, and Ash's Smoke Screen, they will continue to fire at, and track your movements. Even if you go into cover. Sometimes even if you walk up behind them without attacking or otherwise making a sound, they'll stand up from their cover, turn to their buddy (if one exists) and start firing, however the bullets seem to do a 90º (or close to it) curve right out of the barrel and come straight at you. While invisible.

 

I am aware of the changes to invisibility mechanics allowing enemies to be alerted to your position when damaged or making loud noise, but this happens whether you deal damage or not, whether you have a companion or not, whether you sneak or not, and in Solo mode, so team mates aren't the issue. It also doesn't seem to be faction specific. I have seen Corrupted do it. It's even more obvious when Fusion/Corrupted Moa do it, due to the laser beam they use.

Edited by DeathwingZero
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Don't base your tweaks on simply analyzing data. Especially data about how many lancers were killed.

 

this

 

amazed that the OP didnt mention the arghwing grineer mobs and their issues =/

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We sampled 20,000 random player accounts that have been active 20 days post and 20 days prior to the launch of Update Archwing, specifically looking for how many players have been killed by Grineer Lancers (Arid, Frontier, Corrupted) during that period of time.  

 

Lancers are getting replaced by Elite Lancers on syndicate missions.

 

Those missions are often run on solo, so the risk is much bigger. Please check the Elite Lancers because they are the basic grineer unit for syndicate missions, and not the common Lancers.

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In other news, the old Ballista/Trooper/Seeker behind cover has full auto issue is back, with a vengeance. Pin point accuracy(the issue at hand) and half second mag dumps is no fun.

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I thought it was pretty funny when the pod I was defending dropped to below half health almost instantly in a syndicate grineer MD mission because I wasn't pressing 4 (and, subsequently, winning) with enough frequency.

That didn't defeat me, of course. It was the later engine freeze heading to extraction that did that.

Just killing enemies through walls with noskill abilities is the way to go, dealing with elites.

Edited by BioSnark
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Seekers are pure evil. Super-jump out of cover? All their shots hit you! While your'e invisible!

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I think this problem was most noticed in Ceres, with Elite Lancers/Seekers/Ballistas/Heavy gunners dealing large damage even at range because of their enhanced accuracy. Grineer deaths are likely up because they have to be killed faster and in larger numbers. 
Even a single unit could rapidly tear down shields in one second. It'd be nice to play this game in part as a mobile shooter, ability spam really shouldn't be necessary within regular scaling. 

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Phobos tile set has much more open space compared to other tile sets, making the improved accuracy actually matter, compared to the insides of ships or obstacle-obscured forests of Earth.

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tweaking Player movement will be great and all - but Grineer are primarily Hitscan to start with, this means 'evading' is impossible. at best we can fly around at mach 88 and just hope that they miss their shots due to Spread.

 

there's no active way to evade Hitscan Weapons.

and this is why i've been saying they shouldn't exist for months upon months.

 

even just changing Raytrace Weapons to say, 5000m/s would be a huge improvement. but i'd vote for 3500m/s.

that minute delay between leaving the Weapon and hitting the target would make a world of difference.

 

 

 

as for Enemy Damages, Seekers are the most dangerous Enemy in the entire game. the Krakens aren't quite as pinpoint accurate as some others, but they fire multiple shots per firing sequence, so they make up for it with two projectiles per shot, that each deal incredulous Damage.

this Damage, that, once again, is higher than any other Enemy in the game.

 

Ballista's and Sniper Crewman also deal a lot of Damage, the former being pinpoint Accurate at all times, and the latter while still dealing fairly high Damage, having moderate Projectile Speed and not quite as pinpoint spread.

 

 

Enemies that focus on Rate of Fire to Kill us, i would suggest to be like Heavy Gunners. Heavy Gunners have a very high Damage Ceiling, however they are more Dangerous the longer they get the opportunity to shoot at you.

this is a good application to other Enemy Types.

ex. - Detron Crewman. they could be slow to fire at first, but 'panic' or something else and start firing much more quickly the longer they're firing at you.

 

apply this to all Enemies, and we make some progress. i would say slow, taking aimed shots at first, and panicking more and more the longer they fire, lowering Accuracy but significantly increasing Rate of Fire.

 

 

that plus no RayTrace Weapons, and i think we'll be good.

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I am glad Devs are looking into this.

On my experience problem is not the lancers, it is Balistas, Seekers, Shield Lancers and Detron Crewman.

Balista does way too much damage and will kill you even before you spot her while Sniper crewman can hardly hit you as well as he does not deal even close to Balista's amount of dmg.

Seekers use a pistol yet are more deadly than Lancers. Same goes to shield lancers and Detron Crewman who not only shoots fast but he 3-6 shots you when you are max redirection+max vitality Rhino on Jupiter. and when there is a group of them you are pretty much doomed.

We need some sort of cover system so we could take cover behind a column or wall and pop out shoot and hide behind it at least, this would boost stealth and general survivability of tenno in the field. Accuracy nerf and dmg nerf to enemies stated would be great.

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I also noticed in one of my recent games that a moa somehow knew exactly where I was after my shade cloaked me. Normally they keep shooting in the same place but this one followed me as I moved. I think this might be related to the accuracy change

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Can you do something about the Seeker's overpowered Kraken, too??? It's bomb should do that amount of damage, and the Kraken should do as much damage as the bomb does currently :P.

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Not to insinuate that I have a problem with them, but I truly wonder how many litres of blood Elite Lancers, or should I call them Grineer Bloodletters, have shed over the course of their lives. I can only assume their Slash procs have been much more regular if their accuracy as improved as much as has been implied.
 

Can you do something about the Seeker's overpowered Kraken, too??? It's bomb should do that amount of damage, and the Kraken should do as much damage as the bomb does currently :P.

I am undecided in regards to how much damage the Kraken should do, but I will certainly reinforce your idea concerning making the Seeker Latchers more intimidating. Their damage is insignificant, especially when we take into account that we have the ability to escape from the Latchers by simply rolling. This is also sort of exacerbated by how long they take to detonate.

Edited by Ekaere
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tweaking Player movement will be great and all - but Grineer are primarily Hitscan to start with, this means 'evading' is impossible. at best we can fly around at mach 88 and just hope that they miss their shots due to Spread.

 

there's no active way to evade Hitscan Weapons.

and this is why i've been saying they shouldn't exist for months upon months.

 

 

I assumed they were talking about spread, not actual accuracy. Something that would work like a debuff based on what the player is doing. For example:

 

- Tenno standing around => normal enemy accuracy and spread

- Tenno dashing=> enemy fire gets 50% spread penalty (same accuracy, but less shots will hit the target)

- Tenno wallrunning => enemy fire gets 75% spread penalty (still the same accuracy, but even less shots will hit the target)

 

If it's a dynamic debuff like that, then hitscan doesn't matter because you're relying on spread to make their weapons less accurate. But again, I'm just assuming that's it. And I have no idea whether or not it would be a good change. Latency could potentially ruin the whole thing.

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(same accuracy, but less shots will hit the target)

so in other words you're meaning an RNG Chance for shots to hit you based on actions you're doing.

 

yuck_answer_8_xlarge_answer_2_xlarge.jpe

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I think enemies that aim track slow, so if players move quickly they should be able to out run the enemies tracking, thus rewarding movement when out of cover.

 

The only way for enemies to track fast is if they shoot without aiming but they suffer accuracy loss.

 

Snipers should have the same thing except they can only shoot while aiming, once they aim they have a laser pointed at the player which warns the player that they are about to be sniped unless they MOVE!

 

what'ya think?

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The problems:

 

- Hitscan weaponry

- Zero reaction time

- Telepathic communication

- Disproportionately high damage

- Knockdown

- Artificial Difficulty

- Power Creep

- Slash procs and Toxin damage

- Stiff and buggy movement

- Abysmal drop rates

 

The solution:

 

- Fix the problems without creating more

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so in other words you're meaning an RNG Chance for shots to hit you based on actions you're doing.

 

 

If you want to focus on the RNG aspect of things then yes, you got it right. But I was simply giving you an example of something that, to me, counts as an active way of evading hitscan weapons. If your movement is causing enemies to hit you less often, then I consider that to be viable evasion. It's "fake" evasion, but I don't really mind as long as it works (again, it might not work at all).

 

Feel free to disagree and reply, but I ask you to please avoid posting gifs that don't add to the conversation. I find words a lot more interesting then memes and random images. Also, in case I failed to make it clear on my previous post, I am not proposing this idea as a solution to the enemy accuracy situation. I was just making a point about how to it is possible to make hitscan miss by working with spread. I still don't think spread alone is a good basic mechanic unless you're remaking the original DOOM or something like that.

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I still don't think spread alone is a good basic mechanic unless you're remaking the original DOOM or something like that.

certainly not. but that plus nearly Raytrace Weapons rather than being Raytrace, tweaks to Movement (preferably so my input gets ignored less, so my character always does what i'm pressing the buttons to do), and some changes to their Accuracy at all times pending their location (such as more Accuracy when braced against some hard cover than when jogging around).

 

a bunch of little things together should dramatically help the situation.

changing one thing certainly wouldn't be 'problem solved'.

 

 

 

- Fix the problems without creating more

fixing bugs without creating new ones in complicated software is impossible :)

but as long as the bugs you create can be considered features or not an issue, it all works out.

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I have a feeling the issue would be poorly traced through Tenno deaths at the hand of units who, even with accuracy buffs, are some of the weakest in the Grineer arsenal and are intended to kill you less often. Instead, Ballistas & Seekers are the units who need to be carefully inspected among the Grineer army. From there, it should be obvious that the accuracy buff is heavy-handed, and that enemies with hitscan weapons easily hit you even if you're being an evasive speedmonkey. Their weapons are brutally powerful, and should come with at least a fair drawback.

 

I enjoy the increased difficulty that comes with buffed accuracy, but it really should be fair and balanced. I'm not sure that the measurement tool you've used is the best for the job.

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certainly not. but that plus nearly Raytrace Weapons rather than being Raytrace, tweaks to Movement (preferably so my input gets ignored less, so my character always does what i'm pressing the buttons to do), and some changes to their Accuracy at all times pending their location (such as more Accuracy when braced against some hard cover than when jogging around).

 

a bunch of little things together should dramatically help the situation.

changing one thing certainly wouldn't be 'problem solved'.

 

Yes, that is what I meant. Not good as a basic mechanic but useful as part of a bigger one.

 

My only fear about adding the delayed raytrace thing is that I can almost see Scott saying something like "we can't just change this for enemy weapons and not do the same for player weapons". And that would be bad to say the least. But as long as they don't do it to our weapons, sure. Worth a try. I'm tired of being forced to play as Homer's drinking bird whenever I have to do a solo syndicate mission.

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If you're only interested in the killing statistics, you really missed the point. I used to enjoy playing missions with different weapons and different styles. But with the god-like enemy accuracy, I must rely heavily on the warframe abilities and the most effective weapon. Of course you can still solo high level missions with a stealth loki or an undead valkyr, but most other playing styles are simply suicide.  Such insane level of enemy accuracy is killing the fun of using various weapons and the diversity of playing styles.

Edited by apcha
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