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DE_Adam

Psa: Enemy Accuracy And You

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i thought people were exaggerating at first... i go around a corner and in 2 seconds i got about: 3 or so slash procs & a ballista removed 75% of my shields and then i thought "hmm, corpus missions looks fun!"

Btw... i always thought Grineer guns had to much power and the balance WAS the inaccuracy

but oh well time to up my corpus kills

 

What mission did you do?

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And that would be bad to say the least.

impossible. you would barely if at all be able to notice a difference betweeen Raytrace and 3500m/s. one is instantaneous, the other is 99% instantaneous for all intensive purposes.

 

but a difference between 0ms to reach target and a couple milliseconds, is huge because we have no delay as it is now.

 

 

 

oh, and we should uh... probably come up with something to do about Clients having a much easier time than Hosts. being the Host of a Mission is like drawing the short straw. Enemies will hit you much more often if you're the Host.

my head is kind've cloudy currently, but off the top of my head i'd just make Enemies less Accurate by N margin to the Host.

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impossible. you would barely if at all be able to notice a difference betweeen Raytrace and 3500m/s. one is instantaneous, the other is 99% instantaneous for all intensive purposes.

 

Ok, making bullets travel 1% slower would not be noticeable for the most part. I agree. But if it is not noticeable, then how will it help us evade enemy fire? Wouldn't we have to move really fast to take advantage of that 1%? Because I'm only thinking about dash speed here (Frost/Rhino with no sprint mods). It's not very fast.

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Okay, been out of the game for a while now but I couldn't help but notice a lot about the ballista in this. Guys, they are basically the snipers of the grineer, they're supposed to be accurate as hell. Seekers, lancers, and their other little buddies however... yeah, they need to tone it down a bit. At least add a slight delay and some drift. Feels like I'm fighting an army of auto-turrets rather than cloned soldiers.

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Okay, been out of the game for a while now but I couldn't help but notice a lot about the ballista in this. Guys, they are basically the snipers of the grineer, they're supposed to be accurate as hell.

 

It's ok for them to be accurate. But being accurate and doing tons of damage has caused them to become a much bigger threat then any of the heavy grineer units.

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But if it is not noticeable, then how will it help us evade enemy fire?

the slight delay would take a small part in making them a bit less accurate. it would result in their shots drifting slightly, almost like spread.

 

it would be very useful in conjunction with other facets. but ofcourse it doesn't do much on it's own.

 

 

part of it is also annoyance that we have Raytrace Weapons, meaning Weapons firing projectiles at FTL speeds. and i don't think that belongs in any game. not unless the Weapon was huge, that is. large enough to house enough 'space magic' to propel a projectile at FTL.

 

 

 

 

side note: Seekerrrrrrrrrrrsssss.

 

;'(

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Mostly only Elite Grineer Lancers make such a problem whith accuracy. Also, I don't know how it is conected, but higher level enemies really actually shoot faster. And when you get a storm of shield-busting, bleed-inflicting bursts you will not think about your superpowers, because every split second could cost you a live.

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Problem is that they hit you when they're not supposed to, dodging away, running with Volt's speed, sprinting, etc.

 

1 or two bullets hitting isn't a problem, but when you get hit like under bullet attractor it hurts and is frustrating. Today in T4 survival, I was invisible and activating LS when a Moa stopped by, and even without looking at me it's beam magically bent to my position and sent me down. That's NOT natural.

 

Accuracy increase is OK, i guess, but right now it's a bit too much. It's like we're bullet magnets, and that isn't fun. Parkour and mobility not helping only complicates the matter.

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Grineer these days have certainly stepped up their game.  Deadly at close range and crack shots at a distance, Tenno all over the Solar System have been letting us know that the clone army really hasn’t been messing around ever since Update Archwing.  All these increased deaths have made us wonder if the Grineer haven’t secretly perfected the art of no-scope headshots.  There’s even talk of some Corpus crewmen hitting Tenno with pinpoint accuracy.

 

At least, that’s what you’re telling us.  Naturally, we decided to investigate and the results were pretty surprising.

 

We sampled 20,000 random player accounts that have been active 20 days post and 20 days prior to the launch of Update Archwing, specifically looking for how many players have been killed by Grineer Lancers (Arid, Frontier, Corrupted) during that period of time.  

 

Simply put, the data told us this: On average Lancers were not only being killed more often, but certain types of Lancers (Frontier and Corrupted) were doing dramatically worse against Players over this 40 day period of time.  Arid Lancers on the other hand, were suddenly doing much better!  Being an Arid Lancer definitely became a Grineer’s best career move in the Solar System, but for us this is a sign that further data and digging must be done!

 

Naturally there’s so much information to dive into here, and we’ve only just begun our investigation of enemy accuracy.  Grineer Lancers only make up a small piece of the puzzle, as there are far more variables than one enemy type to take into consideration.  We’ve also heard your complaints on Kubrows getting killed too quickly in close-range combat.

 

Currently we are looking into ways of making movement more rewarding for evasive purposes to increase the usefulness of mobility and parkour on enemy accuracy.

We’ll continue to update you all as we search for any potential problems (and solutions) regarding accuracy. Rest assured, when it comes to accuracy we’re doing everything we can to hit this problem right on the mark.

 

Well, its pretty obvious that Phobos is a harder planet -  higher levels and more important, lots of open space where lancers murder players (just join some noobs to witness this happening). 

Earth is low level, and void lancers aren't  even hitscan to begin with and lots of cover in void maps. 

'Lancers getting killed' is odd way to judge  the issue, what if they are killed more simply cause they are now a priority target and players HAVE TO kill them quickly to survive.

And I hope you are looking onto damage done, and not 'players killed' for real picture.

 

Ideally you'd make all the enemies non-hitscan, or just give them a tiny delay so they'd shoot at a position player was a 0,5 second before - standard trick used in games to make the enemies less aim-bot and to reward player evasive movement.

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Grineer these days have certainly stepped up their game.  Deadly at close range and crack shots at a distance, Tenno all over the Solar System have been letting us know that the clone army really hasn’t been messing around ever since Update Archwing.  All these increased deaths have made us wonder if the Grineer haven’t secretly perfected the art of no-scope headshots.  There’s even talk of some Corpus crewmen hitting Tenno with pinpoint accuracy.

 

At least, that’s what you’re telling us.  Naturally, we decided to investigate and the results were pretty surprising.

 

We sampled 20,000 random player accounts that have been active 20 days post and 20 days prior to the launch of Update Archwing, specifically looking for how many players have been killed by Grineer Lancers (Arid, Frontier, Corrupted) during that period of time.  

 

Simply put, the data told us this: On average Lancers were not only being killed more often, but certain types of Lancers (Frontier and Corrupted) were doing dramatically worse against Players over this 40 day period of time.  Arid Lancers on the other hand, were suddenly doing much better!  Being an Arid Lancer definitely became a Grineer’s best career move in the Solar System, but for us this is a sign that further data and digging must be done!

 

Naturally there’s so much information to dive into here, and we’ve only just begun our investigation of enemy accuracy.  Grineer Lancers only make up a small piece of the puzzle, as there are far more variables than one enemy type to take into consideration.  We’ve also heard your complaints on Kubrows getting killed too quickly in close-range combat.

 

Currently we are looking into ways of making movement more rewarding for evasive purposes to increase the usefulness of mobility and parkour on enemy accuracy.

We’ll continue to update you all as we search for any potential problems (and solutions) regarding accuracy. Rest assured, when it comes to accuracy we’re doing everything we can to hit this problem right on the mark.

 

1. Grineer Lancers are only part of the problem, they wither your shields down and prevent them from regenerating and apply Slash procs from time to time. They do not generally kill players outright. On the other hand, you have Seekers and Ballistas that deal massive amounts of damage and is pinpoint accurate at all ranges. At this point, Seekers might as well just replace Ballistas with their fire rate and accuracy. Not to mention with the support of Napalms, Bombards and Hellion missiles that tracks players no matter where you move. 

TL;DR : Look at the damage they received from specific units rather than who dealt the killing blow.

 

2. Corrupted Lancers, Corpus Units that use Dera and MOAs are not hitscan. You will notice that they always aim slightly forward to the direction where the players are moving towards. They compensate for the movement by leading the target (Tenno) a bit too much, leading them to miss most of their shots. This is easily able to be tested if you move sideways, their shots will almost never hit you (except for Detron crewmen and Fusion / Corrupted MOAs. Moving forwards and backwards do not affect this accuracy as much as sidestepping.

TL;DR : Non-hitscan units overcompensate for player movement, leading them to miss shots.

 

3. Because the enemy always knows where the players are, they aim for the center of mass of players. They do not factor in barriers, and will continue to target players behind the barriers rather than shooting around the barriers at exposed body parts. While this is fine, units with AoE will still be able to damage you through barriers. They do not have a specific line of sight that tells them where to shoot.

TL;DR : Enemies only shoot at players' center mass, and do not factor in barriers. AoE units still benefit from the accuracy.

 

I would like enemies to have a "target realignment" or "target re-acquisition" time period after players have moved a certain distance in a short amount of time. Them being accurate on stationary targets is fine, just not all the time and no matter how much you move.  

Edited by Neah
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Ballistas and Seekers actually miss a lot from a long range.

It's just their damage that is obnoxious (whet they DO hit). Fragile frames on Ceres can only play cover shooter, for example.

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The problem here is that the overall accuracy is too high with no ability to mitigate it. Before the buff, you would have a chance to utilize movement as a means to do that. Now it's irrelevant how you move as the combined "damage pressure" from perfect enemy fire will force you into cover and over and over again since your shields never get a chance to recharge. I'm all for having this kind of difficulty on high level missions though, because you shouldn't be joyriding around the map on those, but entity under 40 in enemy level should suffer from poor accuracy to reflect their lower levels.

 

I'm happy that this is being looked at now though, because the overall game has gotten a lot more tedious when you have to play it like a cover based shooter.

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Sadly lancers will never have a great or consistent track record with kiling players, because they are lancers. Mind you, the higher levels scale pretty dramatically along with the fire rate of their guns.

 

I'd say the more noticeable aspect is that all corpus know how to accurately lead their targets at any range. Doesn't matter if they aren't hitscan, they know exactly where to shoot no matter where you are going.

 

Pretty much. Enemies have always been able to read your inputs. I used to laugh when I'd aim at a Roller and watch it actively move out of my crosshair, or when I aimed at a Lancer and moved my cursor around to make him run in little circles. It just seems like that sensitivity to player inputs was beefed up with U15... key word here is "seems."

 

I'm agreeing with you, by the way.

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Mobile defences alerts are very VERY difficult to solo now without Frost. Either grineer focus elites on you shredding you or, (saturn exclusive I think) hidden cryopod ignoring you completely.

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You should check Ballistas. They can no scope one shot you. If there was a accuracy buff their killing potential should have increased. Same goes to Seekers with Krakens.

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Pretty much. Enemies have always been able to read your inputs. I used to laugh when I'd aim at a Roller and watch it actively move out of my crosshair, or when I aimed at a Lancer and moved my cursor around to make him run in little circles. It just seems like that sensitivity to player inputs was beefed up with U15... key word here is "seems."

 

I'm agreeing with you, by the way.

From what I've seen, the AI certainly does "screen look".  Not just the Rollers - erm, rolling, or Runners that seem to be able to jump out of a shot as you pull the trigger.  The AI measures lead by your theoretical ground speed and heading.  You can actually exploit this against travel time weapons to rather hysterical extent.  With some separation from the enemy, find a wall that will block your movement perpendicular to the line of fire.  Then keep moving against the wall.  Besides the silly run-in-place animation, the AI will shoot at where you would be if you could actually pass through the wall.  I discovered this while attempting to finish leveling my sentinel burst laser.  There was a charger stuck on geometry that my sentinel kept shooting at, but failing because it was calculating lead rather than just aiming at it. 

 

I'm hoping for some delay on accurate fire when the enemy sees you; and when you move evasively, such rolling and sliding, like it says in the codex :-/.  However, the AI acts like a hive mind:  when one enemy sees you, the entire cell appears to instantly know where you are as well.  Might make an interesting faction at some point down the road, but the Grineer should not be able to do that. 

 

Sometime, I'd love if they implemented some psychological effects on some enemies.  For instance, reacting to being shot at, or when allies die - especially in a messy way - and acting like they *don't* want to die would go a long way towards making the game more engaging.  But for now, I'll settle for them not having full accuracy while they and/or I are on the move. 

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"Does the rolling really help?"

 

 

If one cannot use it to dodge the occasional bullet, then no. Pointless, outside the fact it shows you're in great shape.

When you roll the damage you take is reduced.

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We sampled 20,000 random player accounts that have been active 20 days post and 20 days prior to the launch of Update Archwing, specifically looking for how many players have been killed by Grineer Lancers (Arid, Frontier, Corrupted) during that period of time.  

 

Do you not track damage done to players? That would be a better metric.

 

Certainly I've simply been avoiding high level combat. Hence I've been rofflstomping lower level grineer where I can simply absorb the damage. Even then I've been burning revives much more that ever before.

 

If I were the one looking for metrics I'd look at:

 

1. The distribution of enemy levels killed for a specific enemy

2. The damage done to the player by that enemy

3. Number of played hours

 

And I'd do that in aggregate for everyone,

for X number of long term active accounts (Ones that were active consistently for a period before and after the change)

 

And look at the trends over time. Especially over the threshold of the changes.

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Grineer are currently significantly more threatening than Corpus and Infested overall. Their high damage potential used to be countered by lower accuracy. Now it is not. Constant bleed proc, no shield regen, and high-damage seeker and ballista shots (plus stunlock from hellion rockets) force experienced players to play in a very specific way and shut newer players out of significant portions of the game.

Not sure if intended.

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Hmm, I was having a hard time in Ceres soloing as Nekros but I figured it was also part of the recent level adjustment. I noticed that the Ballistas aim pretty fast while moving to cover, so they're pretty dangerous with their current accuracy. The Seekers I had a few issues with but I think that has to do with Nekros having average armor rating and low shields with my loadout; same with the Corpus Detron wielders.

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Like others before stated, I too have simply been avoiding lvl 20+ Grineer missions since the Accuracy buff because they're simply more hassle than fun. If you checked my account, you'd surely notice I've takes a lot less damage from Grineer compared to before it, yet you should also have paid attention to the fact I played almost exclusively against Corpus and Infested, meaning there were almost no Grineer to take damage from.
Now if you took an average damage per hit taken from Grineer, you'd see a serious increase regardless of how many mission I ran against Grineer.

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Interesting, but as everyone else points out, it's not the Lancers that are the "problem".

I personally don't mind the accuracy increase, but I would like to see some benefit to movement reducing accuracy.

 

Make us move like space ninjas.

 

Just Cause 2 had a good mechanic where the longer you stayed still the more accurate enemies got (simulating them getting a bearing on you).

It may have been smoke and mirrors and the code behind it something simple like actually increasing damage, but it promoted relocation of your character.

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