Time For Warframe Passives?

[Grilleds]

Ok

 

Have any of you at all considered that other elements could be added to the game to justify passive elemental resistances?

No. Because it wouldn't be enough to justify it. Passive elemental resistances are just a dumb idea to begin with. This isn't Pokemon. Adding passive elemental resistances to the Warframes would just muddy up balance discussions even further without adding any real fun factor to the game.

 

I don't understand the appeal of elemental resistances in the first place. Can someone please explain to me why people think that this is such a cool idea? How exactly would that make the game more fun?

[shut]

No. Because it wouldn't be enough to justify it. Passive elemental resistances are just a dumb idea to begin with. This isn't Pokemon. Adding passive elemental resistances to the Warframes would just muddy up balance discussions even further without adding any real fun factor to the game.

 

I don't understand the appeal of elemental resistances in the first place. Can someone please explain to me why people think that this is such a cool idea? How exactly would that make the game more fun?

 

It's more of an intuition thing. Frost dumps snow all over himself and around him to deal damage and Ember basically sets herself on fire regularly; it makes little sense for Frost to suffer just as much as the most frail of Warframes from cold temperatures and for Ember to take massive damage from fire as long as it wasn't herself who started that fire.

 

Obviously the straight-up elemental resistances would be a bit unnecessary (as you said, this isn't Pokemon), but I think that for the sake of maintaining some intuition and keeping unnecessary immersion-breaking to a minimum, the two Frames should at least have some sort of resistance against their respective elemental procs. Kinda like how the Pyro in TF2 still takes full fire damage, but is immune to burning DoT because of his fireproof suit.

Edited December 4, 2014 by SortaRandom

[Grilleds]

It's more of an intuition thing. Frost dumps snow all over himself and around him to deal damage and Ember basically sets herself on fire regularly; it makes little sense for Frost to suffer just as much as the most frail of Warframes from cold temperatures and for Ember to take massive damage from fire as long as it wasn't herself who started that fire.

 

Obviously the straight-up elemental resistances would be a bit unnecessary (as you said, this isn't Pokemon), but I think that for the sake of maintaining some intuition and keeping unnecessary immersion-breaking to a minimum, the two Frames should at least have some sort of resistance against their respective elemental procs. Kinda like how the Pyro in TF2 still takes full fire damage, but is immune to burning DoT because of his fireproof suit.

Here is the problem I have with this:

1.Frost does not dump snow over himself. He freezes the area around him. For all we know the frame itself could actually be room temperature. He doesn't actually freeze himself in any of his abilities. I think we can safely drop any discussion of realism regarding Frost when we consider that he can somehow make an ice globe that people can walk through, but not shoot through. With stuff like this I'm left to ask, why the hell do people even bother arguing realism in a game like this?

 

2.Ember doesn't cover herself in fire anymore, even when she did, the suit clearly hardened in the process seeing how it caused her to reduce damage. Now you could argue that she must have heat resistance since she can walk through her own frames, but so can her allies.

 

Can we just admit that the Warframes basically use magic now? We've got a freaking druid warframe, a necromancer warframe, a beserker warframe, etc... In terms of playable characters, this game is essentially a fantasy game, in space, with guns. Asking why the fire frame doesn't have flame resistance is like asking how a mage in D&D can cast fireball without burning his hands.

 

I fail to see how any of this is immersion breaking. I never thought playing as the character that can hurl fireballs automatically would give me flame resistance. That's oldschool video game logic where monsters in RPGs are often immune to their own elements. This game has so many immersion breaking elements to it, why the heck do people feel to need to fixate on something as inconsequential as elemental resistances? Especially since elemental damage is actually pretty rare in this game to begin with. If we are going to give frames passives, why don't we give them ones that actually enhance their gameplay in some way?

 

Thank you for at least explaining it to me. But the logic behind it is so inconsistant with what is in the game that I still fail to see just why people fixate on this. 

Edited December 4, 2014 by Grilleds

[shut]

Here is the problem I have with this:

1.Frost does not dump snow over himself. He freezes the area around him. For all we know the frame itself could actually be room temperature. He doesn't actually freeze himself in any of his abilities. I think we can safely drop any discussion of realism regarding Frost when we consider that he can somehow make an ice globe that people can walk through, but not shoot through. With stuff like this I'm left to ask, why the hell do people even bother arguing realism in a game like this?

 

2.Ember doesn't cover herself in fire anymore, even when she did, the suit clearly hardened in the process seeing how it caused her to reduce damage. Now you could argue that she must have heat resistance since she can walk through her own frames, but so can her allies.

 

Can we just admit that the Warframes basically use magic now? We've got a freaking druid warframe, a necromancer warframe, a beserker warframe, etc... In terms of playable characters, this game is essentially a fantasy game, in space, with guns. Asking why the fire frame doesn't have flame resistance is like asking how a mage in D&D can cast fireball without burning his hands.

 

I fail to see how any of this is immersion breaking. I never thought playing as the character that can hurl fireballs automatically would give me flame resistance. That's oldschool video game logic where monsters in RPGs are often immune to their own elements. This game has so many immersion breaking elements to it, why the heck do people feel to need to fixate on something as inconsequential as elemental resistances? Especially since elemental damage is actually pretty rare in this game to begin with.

 

Thank you for at least explaining it to me. But the logic behind it is so inconsistant with what is in the game that I still fail to see just why people fixate on this. 

 

I get your point for sure.

But really, would it hurt to give them (minor) passive resistances against their respective elements? Shooting game or not, the majority of games I see out there in which characters use elements have at least some sort of resistance to their own. I completely agree that something of the sort isn't exactly necessary, but it's not like it would damage the game by being included. XD

[Grilleds]

I get your point for sure.

But really, would it hurt to give them (minor) passive resistances against their respective elements? Shooting game or not, the majority of games I see out there in which characters use elements have at least some sort of resistance to their own. I completely agree that something of the sort isn't exactly necessary, but it's not like it would damage the game by being included. XD

I'd just rather they get a more active passive, if they get one. Don't just slap on a damage resistance, give me something I can actually work into a playstyle. If we are going to have passives, I think they should be active, like Zephyr's.

 

I mean just off the top of my head I can think of better passives than damage resistance:

1.Ember, using energy charges a hidden meter, at 200 energy use, Ember now leaves a trail of fire in her wake for 5 seconds

2.Frost, melee does extra finisher damage to enemies hit by an ice proc

 

or

1.Ember, melee ground slams leave a mini-ring of fire that lasts for 1 second

2.Frost, melee slide attacks leave a rapidly fading ice trail that procs enemies that pass through it before it dissipates

 

or even

1.Ember, does extra damage to enemies under a fire proc

2.Frost, cold procs from weapons do limited DoT in addition to the slow

 

Those aren't even great ideas, but every single one of them is better than just slapping an elemental resistance passive on that you will probably forget you even have.

[shut]

I'd just rather they get a more active passive, if they get one. Don't just slap on a damage resistance, give me something I can actually work into a playstyle. If we are going to have passives, I think they should be active, like Zephyr's.

 

I mean just off the top of my head I can think of better passives than damage resistance:

1.Ember, using energy charges a hidden meter, at 200 energy use, Ember now leaves a trail of fire in her wake for 5 seconds

2.Frost, melee does extra finisher damage to enemies hit by an ice proc

 

or

1.Ember, melee ground slams leave a mini-ring of fire that lasts for 1 second

2.Frost, melee slide attacks leave a rapidly fading ice trail that procs enemies that pass through it before it dissipates

 

or even

1.Ember, does extra damage to enemies under a fire proc

2.Frost, cold procs from weapons do limited DoT in addition to the slow

 

Those aren't even great ideas, but every single one of them is better than just slapping an elemental resistance passive on that you will probably forget you even have.

 

I feel as though passives should be as hidden and subtle as possible, really, and should stay away from anything active (such as a special effect that triggers under certain conditions, like the ice-trails and hidden-200-energy-meter). Zephyr's is great, and Mesa's is fine, since they give minor alterations to existing non-situational mechanics rather than introducing brand-new "only-happens-every-now-and-then" mechanics out of nowhere.

I think that when it comes to passives, forgetting that you have the passive as you play the frame is ideal-- not because it doesn't have any sort of impact on gameplay or anything, but because it eventually just blends into the usual gameplay without the user ever having to keep an eye out for any sort of "special effect" that isn't always there.

 

I probably didn't explain that really well since I'm really tired, but basically, the point of passives is that they are passive. Anything that "triggers a unique effect under certain conditions" isn't passive, it's just an active effect that activates automatically.

[Azawarau]

No. Because it wouldn't be enough to justify it. Passive elemental resistances are just a dumb idea to begin with. This isn't Pokemon. Adding passive elemental resistances to the Warframes would just muddy up balance discussions even further without adding any real fun factor to the game.

 

I don't understand the appeal of elemental resistances in the first place. Can someone please explain to me why people think that this is such a cool idea? How exactly would that make the game more fun?

Wait wait

 

Your argument is entirely subjective using examples of other entirely unrelated games in entirely different circumstances as a defense?

 

And the subjectivity of a fun factor really holds a valid argument?

 

You sir have defeated me

[Thaumatos]

How about a base-stat re-balance in general?

 

Valkyr having more armor than Rhino is still just as bad as Mesa being the only frame with base stat bonuses that don't exist for any other frame.

 

As for Excal? Excal was meant to be a generalist frame. He has no melee themed abilities and isn't really tanky or especially fast, so I don't understand why people think he's a melee frame. Perhaps at one point he was intended to be melee themed, but it looks like that idea got scrapped.

His theme is swords...how is that so hard to see?

 

His name is Excalibur, he shoots Skanas, he gets an ethereal sword with all of his abilities (outside of Super Jump), and blind grants him the stealth melee bonus (yes it still does, you just have to NOT touch things).

 

He's not a 'generalist' ... He's described as a balance between offense and movement, not a balance between everything and nothing.  He's the first frame they made and all his powers were based on how they wanted the game to be played.

[Kasumi-]

He has no melee themed abilities

Slash Dash.

 

You know, the thing with Excalibur dashing at an enemy with a Skana?

[Thaumatos]

Slash Dash.

 

You know, the thing with Excalibur dashing at an enemy with a Skana?

All of his abilities outside of Super Jump summon an energy skana in his hand.

 

Try Radial Blind and Javelin.  He's forcibly holding a sword, regardless of what you use.  Even your own melee weapon.

 

He's a sword-themed frame.

[Grilleds]

I feel as though passives should be as hidden and subtle as possible, really, and should stay away from anything active (such as a special effect that triggers under certain conditions, like the ice-trails and hidden-200-energy-meter). Zephyr's is great, and Mesa's is fine, since they give minor alterations to existing non-situational mechanics rather than introducing brand-new "only-happens-every-now-and-then" mechanics out of nowhere.

I think that when it comes to passives, forgetting that you have the passive as you play the frame is ideal-- not because it doesn't have any sort of impact on gameplay or anything, but because it eventually just blends into the usual gameplay without the user ever having to keep an eye out for any sort of "special effect" that isn't always there.

 

I probably didn't explain that really well since I'm really tired, but basically, the point of passives is that they are passive. Anything that "triggers a unique effect under certain conditions" isn't passive, it's just an active effect that activates automatically.

I could argue that Zephyr's air control is pretty active for a "passive". You are never going to forget about it so long as you jump every now and then, and if you have good twitch aim you can even sort of build a playstyle around it. Mirages is admittedly forgettable, but Mesa's is also gameplay changing, especially her getting more health when she doesn't have a melee.

 

The problem is that passive damage resistance doesn't actually bring anything to the gameplay. I even admitted that my suggestions for passives on Ember and Frost aren't even great suggestions, but at least they are more actively involved and arguably closer to the already existing passives for Zephyr and Mesa. You can't actively use elemental damage resistance. It's just something that changes how much health and shield you lose from a rare damage type. 

 

Wait wait

 

Your argument is entirely subjective using examples of other entirely unrelated games in entirely different circumstances as a defense?

 

And the subjectivity of a fun factor really holds a valid argument?

 

You sir have defeated me

I already presented my arguments earlier in this thread. This is a two page topic. You really have no excuse for not reading back earlier in the discussion.

 

How about a base-stat re-balance in general?

 

Valkyr having more armor than Rhino is still just as bad as Mesa being the only frame with base stat bonuses that don't exist for any other frame.

 

His theme is swords...how is that so hard to see?

 

His name is Excalibur, he shoots Skanas, he gets an ethereal sword with all of his abilities (outside of Super Jump), and blind grants him the stealth melee bonus (yes it still does, you just have to NOT touch things).

 

He's not a 'generalist' ... He's described as a balance between offense and movement, not a balance between everything and nothing.  He's the first frame they made and all his powers were based on how they wanted the game to be played.

I'm not opposed to stat rebalances, but I think Valkyr having more armor than Rhino makes sense gameplay-wise given that Rhino actually has a flexible skillset while Valkyr pretty much needs to run in and smack enemies around in order to be used effectively. I would like to see Rhino have more armor though, and a buffed Iron Skin and Roar.

 

The swords are only in the animations. Excal never actually equips them, and they don't scale in any way off his melee. Same with Ash's hidden blades. The stealth attack bonus only applies to the first hit. I'd argue that Ash and Loki have a better claim to being melee frames given that they can get stealth attack bonuses for an entire duration of their invisibility skills. Loki even has an ability that forces enemies into melee.

 

The more recent Warframe profile video pretty much states that he's meant to be able to fit any playstyle.

 

Slash Dash.

 

You know, the thing with Excalibur dashing at an enemy with a Skana?

That doesn't scale of his melee weapon? Yeah I know what you are talking about.

 

All of his abilities outside of Super Jump summon an energy skana in his hand.

 

Try Radial Blind and Javelin.  He's forcibly holding a sword, regardless of what you use.  Even your own melee weapon.

 

He's a sword-themed frame.

Then his "theme" doesn't reflect his gameplay. I'm not convinced he's meant to be a melee frame, especially when other frames like Loki, Ash, Valkyr, and Saryn all get better melee steroid abilities.

[Tsukinoki]

@Grilleds
The only thing I have to comment on in your last statement is that arguably Excalibur gets just as good, if not better, melee steroid abilities when compared to Ash and Loki:
Radial blind causes the 4x stealth damage bonus to come into effect for the entire team, not just himself.
Meaning that when he blinds a room everyone on the team enjoys 4x melee damage AND it gaurantees that the berserker mod activates on each hit.  Just like being invisible does.

[Grilleds]

@Grilleds

The only thing I have to comment on in your last statement is that arguably Excalibur gets just as good, if not better, melee steroid abilities when compared to Ash and Loki:

Radial blind causes the 4x stealth damage bonus to come into effect for the entire team, not just himself.

Meaning that when he blinds a room everyone on the team enjoys 4x melee damage AND it gaurantees that the berserker mod activates on each hit.  Just like being invisible does.

Only on the first hit to each enemy.

 

Ash's smoke screen mod also causes it to affect the entire team, and Valkyr's Warcry impacts the whole team and debuffs enemies right from the start. Loki's melee steroid does only impact him, but he can force enemies into melee first to maximize his potential.

 

Saryn's melee steroid is crud though, but it's got minor usability vs Eximus enemies. Otherwise it needs a rework and I don't even know why the heck she even has that skill on her kit.

 

Besides, wasn't the Radial Blind stealth attack bonus originally an oversight that just got kept in? I think it was originally just supposed to cause enemies to not be able to react to Tenno, but it was coded to do so by causing them to outright consider Tenno to be invisible.

[Azawarau]

I already presented my arguments earlier in this thread. This is a two page topic. You really have no excuse for not reading back earlier in the discussion.

I already told you why nd how you were wrong and youre just refusing to accept it

 

Theres no reason why adding more elements cant be balanced

 

"This shudnt be pokamans" is not a valid argument

 

Mesa has passives and its likely well see it as a possibility in the future for other frames

[Grilleds]

I already told you why nd how you were wrong and youre just refusing to accept it

 

Theres no reason why adding more elements cant be balanced

 

"This shudnt be pokamans" is not a valid argument

 

Mesa has passives and its likely well see it as a possibility in the future for other frames

Again I'm repeating myself. They can't be balanced because it's so lopsided and RNG dependent, not to mention it has absolutely no player involvement unlike all the current passives. In order for the passive to be useful, enemies of that damage type need to spawn in high quantities and you would need to actually be taking a decent amount of hits from them. If they don't spawn in those large quantities? You might as well not even have a passive, so what the heck is the point of even having an elemental resistance passive? Please explain to me why you think it's so much of a better idea than a passive that actively involves the player in some way, like the Zephyr and Mesa passives? I've put forth a lot of posts explaining my reasoning, and the only explanation I've seen for the reasoning behind such passives is "It just kind of makes sense from an immersion standpoint", which is even more subjective than what you are accusing my argument of being. 

 

Also I don't think that the devs should be basing their ideas of future enemy types on justifying a silly idea like Warframe passive elemental resistance. So the idea of them adding a lot of ice enemy types to justify Frost having ice resistance is just a ridiculously self serving argument without any real basis other than "if this were true, then my argument wouldn't be hilariously bad". 

 

This is all hypothetical anyway, and I'm actually against certain Warframes even getting passives. But for some inane reason people think that actually giving every Warframe a passive will somehow balance them, even though Zephyr has a passive and is still considered underpowered. 

Edited December 4, 2014 by Grilleds

[Kyte]

For the record Mesa's HP bonus is a whopping 18 HP. Not game changing in any way.

[Grilleds]

For the record Mesa's HP bonus is a whopping 18 HP. Not game changing in any way.

Doesn't that add to her base HP which scales with vitality? I don't know because I haven't bothered with Mesa yet. Besides she gets that in addition to her gun buffs. The gun buffs are minor, but are still noticeable as a couple of them are basically like having a mod effect without having to equip the mod.

[MoyuTheTrinity]

I've made a topic about this idea LONG ago, and I think that passive abilities on all of the frames would be great.

 

She moves 20% faster while zoomed in, has a 20% faster reload speed with single-handed secondary weapons, 20% faster fire rate with akimbo style secondary weapons, 20% extra ammo for bows, and 1m punch through on snipers

 

THESE LITERALY ARE ALL BUFFS THOS WEAPON TYPES NEEDED why are these only for 1 frame >:/

[Kyte]

Doesn't that add to her base HP which scales with vitality? I don't know because I haven't bothered with Mesa yet. Besides she gets that in addition to her gun buffs. The gun buffs are minor, but are still noticeable as a couple of them are basically like having a mod effect without having to equip the mod.

All buffs work in the same way as mods, meaning they stack the same way, aka additive with each other. (They very probably use the mod system under the hood. It's actually fairly common, back when I could read the luas many power effects added 'Upgrades', which is how mods are implemented as well)

(The unknowns are +2 pellets and +1m punchthrough, because those are flat bonuses. I don't know how flat bonuses and percentage bonuses interact, since it has never happened before)

Edited December 5, 2014 by Kyte

[jjpdn]

I would love team elemental resistance for elemental frames, allround boost for Excalibur, allied armor boost aura for Rhino (aura, with limited range), accuracy debuff for enemies in sight of Mirage, stealth boost for Ash, speed aura for Loki, auto-health regen aura around Trinity, team proc resistance for Nyx and etc.

[ProfessorZero]

Passives in WF should

1. Always be applicable

2. Noticeable, but not game breaking

3. Less than what a Mod could do

4. Not be like aura mods (ie, benefit you not everyone else and you)

 

To that degree, if I'm going up the corpus with Ember (yes i know) theres no fire, hell with the infested theres basically no fire. Even with the most firey of them all, grineer, theres very very little fire. I'm fine with thematically oriented passives, but for damage resistances to be noticeable on frames they would have to be large due to the rarity of encountering them. (ie if I take 5% less damage from fire, but out of every 40 enemies only one of them has fire damage, I really have .125% overall damage resistance, which really just doesn't matter for S#&$. That means I'd have to take nearly 800 damage to mitigate 1 damage point, thats nothing). Its infinitely better to give ember a set proc chance of like 5% for a fire proc with all weapons or 5% additional damage, or some sort of fire aura that reduces the crap out of the armor nearby or does damage ticks when hit or close then it is to give her elemental resistances. 

Now on point #4 > if Mesa had passives that gave everyone more pellet count that wouldnt make sense. She's the one who is good with guns, not everyone else, she doesn't magically (inb4 space magic) make everyone get better with weapons just by being there. Passives shouldn't be auras, because imagine if Nekros got an energy regen passive of like 3 energy per 10 seconds. Suddenly any team with a nekros can have 2.7 energy regen per second at max, but more realistically 1.5 (2 ppl with it). Now while I'm sure nobody objects to that in of itself, It would mean the new meta would be to just always have nekros, and he doesn't even need to be the one with the energy siphon aura. Thats a little OP, and it would kinda make nekros OP > he wouldn't get a rework. Now if only Nekros had the passive, he might be able to cast his skills that aren't desecrate more often since he has more energy then anyone else. What if rhino had an armor aura that gave 1 life for every 2 armor. Suddenly Valkyr jumps from 500-600 health at a good built, to well over 1000 health and with 80% damage reduc. DE wouldnt want this, so passive auras would be meh, and therefore not matter, which means why have them in the first place. Id much rather everyone to have stronger unique passives then watered down ones.

[(PSN)Nerothebonelord]

Now that we know about Mesa's passive buff with guns, is it about time to revisit the idea of passive abilities for warframes? It's an idea that was hot a while ago that DE claimed wasn't going to happen, but that policy started eroding when Zephyr got its permanent low-gravity and has completely gone out the window with Mesa being straight up better with guns. It's not like Mesa is lacking in inherent stats or abilities in comparison to other frames(or at least they aren't intended to be), and passives would re-spark interest in many frames that have been neglected or 'finished' for a long time. 

very good point, de could use it to revitalize some frames...... (cough Nekros)

[Zdravko]

Excalibur - Melee combos last for 50% longer before fading; combos can now be triggered by Quick Melee.

Loki - Can move 50% faster while aiming and crouching.

Rhino - Enemies will not impede his movement path. (Can push aside enemies when walking.)

Frost - 30% resistance to Ice damage; Cryogenics malfunctions will not reduce shields; immune to Freeze procs.

Ember - 30% resistance to Fire damage; burning patches will deal no damage; immune to Fire procs.

 remove those resistance and immunity and you have a YES from me :P

[Azawarau]

For the record Mesa's HP bonus is a whopping 18 HP. Not game changing in any way.

Thats a whole bleed proc!

 

I know a ton of people who need that

 

>Insert link to bleed proc thread here

[Kyte]

Thats a whole bleed proc!

 

I know a ton of people who need that

 

>Insert link to bleed proc thread here

It got changed to a +50 bonus, anyways. Much more useful.