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[DE]Glen

Trinity: Energy Vampire

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Was going to say "Better nerf Trinity Wednesday", but im not sure. I'll have to test these changes myself

 

Seriously though, why does Trinity get so much attention and none of the other frames?

 

Because Trinity is incredibly powerful when combined with other frames?

 

That's the way "Support Classes" always are. Somewhat weak by themselves, but INCREDIBLY powerful when combined with other people. If a Support Class is overpowered, you just need one of them on the team to make the entire game laughably easy.

 

If she's underpowered, then nobody will play her, which can be just as bad, as Support Classes add Teamwork value, which is what a game like Warframe wants; they want 4 person teams doing crap and they want you to feel some measure of Teamwork rather than having 4 people killing as much junk as they can indiscriminately and not caring about their fellow Tenno unless they have to revive someone or open a friendship door.

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I think its time to farm Trinity... So I can know what I'm talking about when after they buff her, they nerf her. Probably on the next wednesday.

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I have one question: 

 

would this also work in PVP??????

 

Sounds like if you cast EV twice on a player and he's dead? Even Valkyr's massive armor won't help. 

 

Also effectively makes Saryn's Venom obsolete in PVP. Venom needs RNG-based viral proc to decrease target's HP. EV is guaranteed for HP damage. Also EV replenishes energy so you can infinitely cast it again and again. 

 

And EV is the second skill to be unlocked, unlike Ash's BS which currently can only be spammed at lvl30. Trinity will be able to spam EV in early stages of Dark Sector Conflicts. 

 

Come to think about it, Trinity would become the most powerful frame for Dark Sector PVP. A walking apocalypse. Spams EV, hurts her enemies, gets energy, restores allies' HP. 

Edited by elele

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Was going to say "Better nerf Trinity Wednesday", but im not sure. I'll have to test these changes myself

 

Seriously though, why does Trinity get so much attention and none of the other frames?

Because they want ppl to play her..... Not many ppl use trin.

 

 

cman9898

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Thanks for asking for thoughts about the change before simply putting it in. Here are mine on the topic.

 

First off a question though: You didn't mention what the actual percentage for the damage would be. Should we assume this means it stays the same, or what will it be?

 

Okay now, onto it:

 

1) The Damage Aspect

 

Regarding level cap, it is highly problematic to make an ability deal percentage true damage. An ability may deal percentage damage, then its effectiveness will be toned down by armor scaling. Or it may deal flat true damage, then its effectiveness will be toned down by health scaling. But combining both means that level progress will not have any influence on how enemies can handle the damage from that skill. 

 

Now, depending on how you set the percentage numbers, this means that the new Energy Vampire will either be completely op, or completely useless, but nothing in between.

 

True damage also has the disadvantage that we lose the enemy type specific strengths and weaknesses against this skill that we have right now, and it takes the potent Bleed procs away from the skill. 

 

As the damage output is concerned, I really like where Energy Vampire is right now. It can be comboed with Well of Life, inflicts Slash damage which means that it triggers bleed procs occasionally and gets hit hard by armor, which seems quite fair. It encourages a lot of interaction and tactical versatility, for example combining it with armor reductions (Corrosive Projection, Corrosive procs, Nekros' Terrify, etc.) is being rewarded. The Well of Life + Energy Vampire combo against armored enemies will kill them initially and for quite some time, but eventually the armor becomes so potent that it doesn't anymore, where you have to debuff the armor first. Except sometimes, when Bleed procs hit, which is a nice randomizer and mixes things up as well. 

 

Now, in contrast, if you make this true damage, you lose the Bleed procs, and the effect will be equal on any enemy regardless what type is health / armor may be. You lose the synergy with armor debuffs and to balance that out, you have to make this skill deal such a low amount of damage in percent that it will be practically useless, and there will be no way to make up for this and get the damage back up because the interactions have been removed. Or, if this skill is still able to kill, it will become a must-have thing that everyone uses and doesn't require any thought or setup or skill to use effectively at all. Where Ash's Bladestorm is right now (seriously, nerf that one, it's ridiculous). 

 

I was surprised from the point where you said it wouldn't be scaled off health + shields anymore, as of my knowledge it did not scale of shields at all. If it does, yes, please remove this, as I understand the skill it really should just regard the health, and shields should protect a bit from its damage. But I am actually pretty sure that it does not consider shield to calculate its damage as of now, you should check that.

 

Summary: Leave its damage mechanic where it is, as Slash damage with a status chance scaled off the target's hitpoints at the moment you cast it, with the current percentage (6.25% x4, which is 25% damage of initial health). Don't make it update the health which it is scaled of, so not 6.25% of initial, then 6.25% at the remaining, etc., which would make every consecutive tick deal less damage, just leave it where it is, 25% of initial health distributed over four ticks. (If you made the damage update, you would lose the Well of Life synergy). 

 

2) The Energy Restore Aspect

 

I do see and agree with your point here, energy vampire should only restore energy when it actually inflicts damage, this makes sense. You can add that change, basically in the way you mentioned. You could make the effect less dichotomous and more continuous, thereby more natural, by scaling the amount of energy restored by the amount of damage inflicted as a percent of the target's health, or simply by the ratio of actually inflicted damage to applied gross damage. This would make armor reduce the restored energy and thereby add more interaction to the skill, as it rewards players for thoughtfully picking their targets for energy vampire, or for setting these targets up, e.g. by comboing with damage amplification.

To make this more clear, hitting a Corrupted Ancient with it would give back 115% of its normal value of energy restored, no matter what level the enemy is, and no matter whether Well of Life was cast on it earlier or not. Using it on a Robotic enemy will only give back 75% of the normal value due to their resistance, and against armored enemies depending on the actual armor value, where it gets rewarding to crack open the armor with some corrosive procs to prepare for the energy harvest. 

You might want to insert a bottom cap, so if used against a really high armored enemy, it still replenishes like 20% of the supposed energy amount, not sure about that. 

 

And yeah, if spammed on Bosses where it doesn't damage them, it won't replenish energy this way, obviously, which is the important part if I understood your post correctly.

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so this ability become Trinity's first ability (energy ver) ? that's great because nowadays you only can choose energy recovery which is reducing the ability duration or blessing + link which is length the ability duration , if new EV gives energy per hit rather than per pulse that would be great buff for Trinity and improve her solo ability and more modding methods :)

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Why not.

 

But don't you have better priorities than nerfing frames? like you know.. getting mods working that have been broken since release.....?

 

Entropy spike for bolto: Doesn't work at all.

Entropy burst for Subra: Adding other status mods doesn't scale right.

Powerthrow for Halikar: Haven't worked since the release of Halikar, it does 0 damage and the explosion does nothing.

Bright purity for Skana: Doesn't work according to some people.

Edited by StickyBaseline

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The effect of these changes is that you can no longer get energy from a target without hurting it -- previously the damage output would dwindle away to nothing as the enemy got closer and closer to death and you could continue to leech energy forever (to say nothing of targets that were naturally invulnerable).

 

So we are going back to the old days of Trinity? Is it that the target has to take some damage (from Energy Vampire or otherwise), to release energy, or that a specific player must damage it to get energy from the EV?

If the latter, you're nerfing trinity straight back to Update 7-10 (whenever the buff was).

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trinity as become so damaged from all the nerfs, idk who still plays with her... have no idea if this is another nerf or attempt to change her, but its still sounds like trin a not worth to ever play with her again.

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Can we please get this for Mag's crush too?~  Armor should not reduce damage from being crushed by oneself, if anything it should increase it.

 

Mag needs some love against non-corpus anyway~ Alloy armor really hurts her :<

 

Well, technically, alloy armor isn't magnetic. So Mag would have a hard time, erm, controlling it anyhow? XD

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And yet another Trinity Nurff- Why not just remove any fun or useful warframe from the game all-togeather. This may be the last nurff before I finaly sell her.

 

Your not making the game more chalanging just more annoying.

  • Upvote 2

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Because they want ppl to play her..... Not many ppl use trin.

 

 

cman9898

 

so they nerf trinity 2 times, so ppl will like to play with her? 

 

worse is better ?

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Now, in contrast, if you make this true damage, you lose the Bleed procs, and the effect will be equal on any enemy regardless what type is health / armor may be. You lose the synergy with armor debuffs and to balance that out, you have to make this skill deal such a low amount of damage in percent that it will be practically useless, and there will be no way to make up for this and get the damage back up because the interactions have been removed. Or, if this skill is still able to kill, it will become a must-have thing that everyone uses and doesn't require any thought or setup or skill to use effectively at all. Where Ash's Bladestorm is right now (seriously, nerf that one, it's ridiculous). 

 

I agree with the change so far as I read it. Why? Because Trinity needs to be able to do damage at high-tier end-game in order to keep herself alive. She needs to kill these enemies since Link wont save you vs really high level enemies.

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Nyx, Mirage and Mesa have ultimates that drain energy for as long as they are active.

Wouldn't that be also a nice way change her ultimate?

 

Anything at all, that will makes her viable again to play with, cause in her current condition she might as well be removed from the game, she still is ugly and now also useless.

Edited by 7grims

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So does Duration factor into the ticks? Because a low duration+high strength build will mean instant half health (per test), since all the ticks will rapidly release ala Miasma.

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I think this codex's image can solve Trinity's energy vampire "nerf":
aaefa6691497.jpg
p/s/ tip for especially inattentive: How many targets are under the influence of the energy vampire?)))

  • Upvote 3

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Why do you tweak trin to have damage abilities, trin doesn't need damage, she's a support/tank. Oh well, whatever, she's now useless against bosses, nice.

 

I wonder why would anyone think that bosses that are immune to everything are fun.

  • Upvote 2

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so... if i understood this right, my approach of casting it and then immediately gunning the target down is still good? fine by me.

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So just tested it, it STILL gives energy per tick (lower duration=faster % damage+faster energy, higher duration=slower % damage+slower energy) and killing targets still gives the full burst of energy. Aside from being able to let Nyx and Mesa get more energy WHILE in their ults and not affecting invincible phase enemies, this is pretty much a buff. It gives efficiency+strength+range builds (especially TF) a super combo with Well+EV and energy is still the same.

 

Not sure how this was a nerf.

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I agree with the change so far as I read it. Why? Because Trinity needs to be able to do damage at high-tier end-game in order to keep herself alive. She needs to kill these enemies since Link wont save you vs really high level enemies.

If you'd do high level missions you'd know that abilities become more and more useless on high level, except for a few ones (like Nyx's Absorb). In high levels, the enemy comes in hordes. You don't pick one, EV it, and wait for it to die, the best you can do is to point at the mob, press 2 and quickly kill it, either with a weapon, or by an AoE ability (or combined). But usually you cant kill it with weapon as EV targets stop, while the rest of the mob walks around it, effectively blocking line of sight to the EV target. So you need to kill everyone in line, or use a punch-through weapon.

 

Trinity is useless on high level (alone) but not because of Link, but because of her 15 Armor. The (almost) only way her to survive is to hide in Frost's Globe or in Nyx's Absorb. BUt that is not a problem, Trinity is a support frame, it does not necessarily needs to survive alone.

 

Trinity needs a decent damage reduction along with the healing that can be properly timed and cast and its effects can be planned. That is why long time Trinity users (like me) told on the forums a dozens of time that the current damage reduction based on the already-suffered damage is stupid. Lag and game mechanics don't help millisecond timing in Warframe. I agree that total invulnerability goes against the fun in the game, but I'd change it so Bless would give you a diminishing damage reduction along the Power Duration, so if the Power Duration is 10 seconds, Bless would give you 100% damage reduction in the first second, 90% in the second, ... and 10% in the last second, with the possibility to recast. So EV and Bless would work against each other, (fast EV -> quick energy -> almost no damage reduction VS. long EV -> slow energy, but quick if target is killed ->good damage reduction).

That way Trinity would get a near invulnerability for a 3-4 seconds (with a 20 seconds Power Duration build), which is enough time to run away, even on high levels.

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Hey DE's stop killing Trinity.

You already to her invincibility away.

Now you want her energy too.

 

For shame DEs! For shame!

  • Upvote 1

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lol who cares about ev damage, people use it for Energy restore. Will these changes affect that in any ways?

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