Saryn's Miasma Is Too Much Op

[kvestwara]

i mean really. look at the  build. and it without any forma. I don't say DE must NERF to the ground. i just say it must be change somehow please.

[HueOfBlood]

why would you want to water down the ability that makes saryn usable? why would you want to downgrade an op move in the first place?

[AM-Bunny]

Ha, that's almost exactly my build and I've used like 5 forma on her. What am I doing with my life T^T

[nyiinx]

I.. honestly don't understand you.

Why would you scream "NERF" at Saryn, of all the frames? She's one of the lesser used frames, along with Mag and Banshee. 

 

By your logic, Valkyr also needs to be nerfed, cause oh no, her ult is also so OP without forma

 

 

SERIOUSLY.

[TrinityPrime]

What would you think of Saryn if Miasma duration was inverted?  

[kvestwara]

Saryn is now "press 4 to win" other her ability is almost nobody used. 

[Zirion_Bk]

Saryn's ult is too op, and therefore deserves a change? I'm guessing you have not seen Ash's Bladestorm yet then. Large armor-ignoring damage, check. Massive bleed damage, check. Invincible during cast, check. Power increases with melee multiplier, check. Saryn's ult is balanced compared to Ash's murder spree, and you want Miasma to be changed? Okay.

[nyiinx]

Again, same logic can easily be applied to Valkyr. And Nova. And Ash.

And heck, I use Molt all the time. Did you know it shrugs off all status effects?

[nickelshark]

Saryn is now "press 4 to win" other her ability is almost nobody used. 

As are some other frames. The solution isn't to nerf miasma but to buff/rework her other three abilites and make miasma in line with them. Right now her ult contradicts her other three abilities. Miasma benefits from shorter duration while the other three rely on duration

[-InV-igo95862]

I think negative stat that turns to be positive (less duration on Miasma - faster damage in Saryn case)needs to be removed from any ability. Otherwise it is a min-maxer heaven there you can mod ability to some ridiculous degree with no downsides. Corrupted mods intended to have some drawbacks.

[ClockworkSpectre]

OP must be a troll.  If anything Saryn needs buffing.  She is a good frame but still falls behind. 

[ThePredicament]

What about this build makes her OP? Add an Arcane Chlora helm and a Blind Rage and it's still pure damage at the end. There's nothing OP about this, only let's her fingertips grasp into end game just a little longer. The only thing going for her right now is her sexiness but that doesn't win any matches.

[Orbister]

If you give me any valid reason to why you want Saryn Nerf and any valid reason to how it harms you i will give you an upvote, otherwise you are just trying to ruin Saryn user's fun.

[drft240]

OP must be a troll.  If anything Saryn needs buffing.  She is a good frame but still falls behind. 

Agreed, I think troll. Miasma seems OP at low level. Pure damage ult like this drops off quick in endless missions. I tried her out with Transient Fortitude, Blind Rage, Intensify, Fleeting, and Chlora helm and the damage falls off at 15-20 waves on Sechura. Not OP, most other Warframe ults beat this.

[Zarlockk]

What is your problem with it? Dont like the build, dont use it. Dont like dmg of miasma? Dont use Saryn. And it is only good ability Saryn has. Venom and Contagion are useless and only use of molt is to remove bleed. YOu want to nerf frame with only 1 usable ability for every situation. And with that logic lets nerf everything. how about buff those who are not strong enough instead?

[EchoesOfRain]

She doesn't need a Nerf, she needs a rework. Once her other skills are useful, people will move off of the miasma builds a bit

[Grilleds]

Saryn is now "press 4 to win" other her ability is almost nobody used. 

Same is with nearly every other frame. It's just Saryn's ability actually scales into T4 missions at the cost of having a below average range.

 

This is Warframe balance discussion in a nutshell. We compare room clear abilities and absolutely nothing else because absolutely nothing else matters other than room clear abilities, Trinity's Energy Well, Snow Globe, and the latter half of Vauban's kit.

 

Again, same logic can easily be applied to Valkyr. And Nova. And Ash.

And heck, I use Molt all the time. Did you know it shrugs off all status effects?

No. Valkyr can't clear a whole room in one button press. Doesn't matter if she has god mode and a ridiculous buff that scales with her ridiculous armor. The fact is she has to actually play the game instead of just press 1 button. Requiring people to actually utilize a small amount of effort puts Valkyr at a massive disadvantage.

 

Nova has to fire a single shot to explode an entire room after using her ult, which is an entire extra button press over other room clear frames. This means Nova requires twice as much effort to play, and therefore is at a disadvantage.

 

Ash has to actually look at an enemy. Which requires moving the mouse. Which is more work than most frames need to put forth to clear a room. This puts him at a minor disadvantage.

 

----

K, joking aside. Can we just admit that the current state of room clearing abilities is a problem in general?

Edited December 4, 2014 by Grilleds

[kvestwara]

...

Can we just admit that the current state of room clearing abilities is a problem in general?

Yes. DE already try change it (LOS) but it was not the best solution

 

P.S. to ClockworkSpectre & drft240: no offence i just sayin my opinion in a specific situation, with help a google translate

[MechaKnight]

I would say I'm psychic, but apparently common sense isn't a super power.

 

This post is long, so skip to the bottom if you don't want to read.

 

Here's a link to my 15 page Saryn thread from months ago. Ever since Prime Time #27 in the month of May, the devs understood that Miasma's calculations behave oddly. Their prime time episode aired a few days after my thread was created.

 

The thread's mission was to give Saryn's first three abilities more performance and relevance to her gameplay. Before, Fleeting Expertise already seemed to drive Saryn players to mod her in a way that was contradictory to the way she should be modded,  but the real damage only appeared when Transient Fortitude was released. Now players mod her for -92.5% duration, which brings her other three abilities to last for about a second each, not counting cast animation delay.

 

The goal of the thread was to rework Saryn to be fun to play by using a balanced and varied kit with good mechanics and innate elemental status scaling. The thread saw much activity from players who wanted Saryn to be popular being she was nearly as rare as Banshee at the time of the thread's origin, but since the release of Transient Fortitude players have jumped onto the boat and accepted she's a one-ability warframe.

 

It isn't that Miasma is overpowered. When modding Saryn the supposedly correct way, it's about as strong as Reckoning with none of the support features or status effects. You would have the ability to use Venom, Molt, and Contagion to their full capacity. However, players just do not like the way these abilities exist in the game as of currently, so Miasma was always her go-to power. The calculation for Miasma worked directly against her abilities, yet players choose to go pure Miasma anyway since her other abilities are too slow, mechanically flawed, or ineffective in gameplay.

 

Although I've been told the developers currently have no plans for a Saryn rework at this time, I really do hope one is drafted and tested soon. Saryn is in the precarious situation of being very much underpowered, with the exception of one single calculation oddity. Saryn requires a rework because without Miasma, there is no decent purpose to play this warframe.

 

Her kit has an extremely good set of concepts that can be fleshed out to really make the warframe shine in a balanced and fun way, they just need some work to shine.

 

Venom is mostly good with the ability to inflict viral status, but can be hard to spread around ability spam, explosives, or weapons that are too strong.

 

Molt is just about ideal. What changes could be requested of in Molt could probably also be requested in Decoy. These abilities are balanced enough, but not as overpowered as other options.

 

Contagion is an extremely lackluster melee ability. It should have defensive perks to make melee safe enough to be worthwhile, along with toxic emanation and status for increased fun and effect against corpus units.

 

Miasma is what's currently your problem only because her other three abilities and her ability augment do not seem worthwhile to use. Players are pushing an odd calculation to increase its damage at the cost of her other three abilities. What it should be instead is an ability that deals flat damage, along with stacking corrosive status procs and stagger/slowdown for the duration of the ability.

 

In short, Saryn needs a rework to make her other three abilities more attractive, because players only want to flush them down the drain for Miasma. However...

 

Let's try to understand the metagame in Warframe as of currently. Most players slap on Fleeting Expertise and Streamline, then use any combination of three strength mods to boost the damage of their 100 energy "ultimate" ability. This is the meta on most warframes except those that perform their role without a focus on their own damage output.

 

Here's a post I've written on an earlier thread about "press 4 to win."

 

 

 

Radial nukes are good.
Fleeting expertise is evil.

 

Agreed. It's nice to have a powerful game-changing ability, but it trivializes the game if it's accessible whenever you want it to be.

 

Having enough energy for an ability needs to mean something. I think the best way to solve the whole Pr4TW issue is to revamp the energy system as a whole, and make it so "4" abilities are still ludicrously powerful, but can't just be pressed on a whim with no drawbacks.

And no, I'm not talking about some horrid cooldown system; I'm talking about a system that makes you earn the Energy for abilities (through dealing damage, taking damage, reviving teammates, pulling off parkour stunts, completing objectives (or assisting in doing so), etc) rather than relying on RNG as we do now.

 

I saw another thread show a problem with the "earn" system but I can't find it now. The gist of that user's post was that by stealing kills from teammates constantly, said player will gain the ability to use their abilities more than other players who can't kill as fast. The rich get richer, and the poor get poorer.

 

I would recommend increased energy cost for those "4" abilities, but that wouldn't change anything--With the current efficiency caps we have now, it'll only take 37.5 energy to spam that 150 energy ability. It barely fixes the problem at all.

 

Ability system rework threads have popped up, with a variety of ideas. The most common one I've seen is implementing cooldowns, but the best one I've seen is degrading efficiencies. If you spam an ability, it would cost more next time you cast it. This can not be applied to every ability as the cheaper abilities are expected to be used frequently. It will definitely apply with harsher percentage penalties on more powerful abilities however.

 

In the vein of that other thread, I suggest an additional mechanic. Remember the Gate Crash event? Let's introduce those scaling mechanics. If you spam an ability, it would degrade rapidly. It would be restored to full strength if you stop using it for a while, but if used too often it will gradually fall off. All power attributes of strength, range, and duration would fall until the ability becomes nearly worthless.

 

However, maybe even this is not enough. The biggest problem is how the "4 nukes" scale in energy consumption compared to our other abilities.

 

Oberon:

Smite: Hit one target with Radiation status and 500 damage, hit 6 more after that with puncture status for 150 Radiation damage.

"Hmm, that's sounds nice."

 

Reckoning: hit infinite enemies within a 15 meter radius for 1250 radiation/impact damage, blind them, inflict radiation status, and give little red cherry orbs if you kill them with it.

"BARGAIN!"

 

It doesn't matter if it costs only 4 times as much, or 10 times as much. Some players may find practical uses for this ability even if it cost 20 times as much. Also, Oberon is actually one of the most balanced examples I can give where the first ability in his kit is even appreciable for the 25 energy it costs compared to his "4 nuke." If you try the same comparison with Excalibur, it's a no-brainer. Excalibur would use his radial over his Slash Dash even if it cost more than 20 times as much. Now that I think about it, Radial Blind is looking a bit shabby for 12.5 energy (rounded to 13) when it does no damage. Radial Javelin blinds enemies as well through walls and inflicts damage for only 25 energy. Super Jump is cheap at 4 energy, but your Energy Siphon would patch that up in a few seconds so feel free to spam that alongside your rain of javelins.

 

My point being, whoever drafting our ability cost system who decided our fourth ability is linearly as valuable as our first ability being cast 4 times really should be shown some extensive spontaneous gameplay within Warframe. There is very little reason to use our other abilities, unless their effect for their cost is mind-numbingly effective in comparison (Mag's Pull compared to her Crush) or is insanely powerful (infinite scaling launchable nukes from Nova's Antimatter Drop).

 

The whole system needs a rework from the ground up. It's no small wonder why the developers have made the archwing efficiency mod so comparatively mild in comparison. It only gives 27.5% efficiency, yet is a rank 10 mod. Smaller limitations like these would have been better for the whole game in the long run.

 

 

The short story of the above spoilered post: we spam our "ultimate" because it is exponentially stronger than our other abilities for only a linear cost. Most warframes regardless of their balance tend to spam their strongest ability since it's usually much more effective than your cheaper abilities, yet has an extremely cheap cost compared to its effect. You can not get the effect of Reckoning, Radial Javelin, Radial Disarm, or Miasma by using Smite, Slash Dash, Decoy, or Venom 4 times over. You may not even get the same net worth if you cast those abilities 20 times over. Our "ultimates" are extremely spammable and effective for such a low cost, which contributes not only to Saryn's Miasma problem but also to problems such as, "why use Shuriken when there's Blade Storm?"

 

 

In conclusion, Miasma isn't overpowered, Miasma is broken. Saryn's kit can be seen as broken in every ability except Molt, and maybe that too. The developers have had strong opinions about this ability since before May, I'm impressed there haven't been any plans to fix up Saryn for all this time. Even if Saryn is reworked however, the current problem of "press 4 to win" has been breaking the fun and balance for many warframes in the game. Saryn should not have been allowed to be this broken for so long, but one can say the same for our ability spam and energy system as well. I recommend Saryn's kit be fixed first, but I can see an ability spam/energy system rework as a viable option too.

Edited December 4, 2014 by MechaKnight

[tris1]

Great this where it goes downhill they moan it's a one trick pony with 1gd skill want a nerd DE comes along nerfs the skill and leaves the other skills lacklustre. Saryn must join frost and Excalibur apparently. Go to another game to ruin

[RealPandemonium]

9k damage for 25 energy?  Totally balanced.

[MechaKnight]

9k damage for 25 energy?  Totally balanced.

 

 

Ash is weak? Okay. Let's buff him!

 

 

because killing a level 132 Eximus with one Blade Storm is not strong enough guys!

 

 

Honestly though. For real. You probably just don't know how to play Ash, or mod him correctly for that matter. You probably don't have half the mods needed to make him, and other frames, a nightmare to your enemy.

 

All in due time. You shall see how much mods matter.

 

 

Killing a level 132 eximus void heavy with one Blade Storm? Totally okay.

 

Vauban making walls of Vortex everywhere? Ignore the giant fuzzy caterpillar consuming everything, it's okay!

 

Enemies moving and attacking at less than half speed, taking double damage, and exploding for chain damage? Yeah, ignore the fact that one fast moving player can nerf a whole map with one ability, and spam it.

 

Make every enemy lose their mind and whack each other? We spam abilities anyway, we probably want to let the game play itself for us.

 

I really, really love warframe for all the fun and concept behind it. It just bends my mind how we let gameplay carry on like this for so long. The only time I actually appreciate being this overpowered is when an event pops up that makes us kill thousands of enemies repeatedly for a reward within 6 days. After the event, I still despair at how trivial our gameplay becomes.

Edited December 4, 2014 by MechaKnight

[ObviousLee]

i mean really. look at the  build. and it without any forma. I don't say DE must NERF to the ground. i just say it must be change somehow please.

i don't even have her but she's finally become useful. people love her her again, and those who always have finally have their baby back. can these pointless nerf threads stop? if you're going to suggest a nerf or change, at least have a presentation to submit with it.

 

edit: by pointless nerf thread, i mean "this is too op please nerf because it robs me of my fluff"

a valid nerf thread would be this is op, here is why it is op, and here is my suggestion to fix it, thoughts?

Edited December 4, 2014 by ObviousLee

[xRevelation]

Op? Ah that's why there are only Saryns running around. No come on it's the one ability that makes some people use her. It would be a shame if she would loose her only good ability. Every Frame need to have something good because otherwise you would Really only see Rhinos and Lokis and so on running around. I don't see any problem with Miasma at all.

[Azawarau]

Frst off

 

Yes it is

 

Second

 

PLEASE DROP VIGOR AND ADD STEEL FIBER YOU WILL NOT REGRET

 

Third

 

The best thing to do would be to lower range and comp with damage or stun though im sure noone wants that

 

Fourth

 

Her only really useless power is contagion and even thats a bit arguable

 

Ive found it useful on infested when i want to turn my fire damage into gas for AoE but the 3-4 seconds it has with my build makes it not worth it