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[DE]Momaw

Before We Get Too Deeply Into Conclave Rating-Based Tac Alerts...

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Can we please have a serious discussion about conclave ratings and how they apply to weaponry?

 

The situation we have now is that an actual weapon accounts for only a small amount of conclave points, while what really sets the final value for all practical purposes is the mods on it.  This means that a really simple and low performance weapon like a Lato might cost 140 points with basic mods, while a high performance choice like the Akmagnus costs 195 points with the exact same mods.  The Akmagnus is vastly more powerful than the Lato but because the conclave rating of the actual weapon is less important than the mods (which scale off base stats), you end up paying 1/3rd more conclave points for something that's probably 3 or 4 times more deadly in actual use.  Both guns pay the same amount of points for the same mods, but high performance weapons gain far more benefit from them. The end result is that a player's only real course in a tactical alert is to use fewer weapons rather than lower tech ones....   which doesn't really seem as interesting as it could be.

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not to mention that some Mods have huge Conclave ratings but are useless and others have very tiny Conclave ratings but on some Weapons are immensely powerful (see also: Melee Prowess, and Point Strike / Vital Sense on Soma).

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Interesting point.

 

If Conclave begins affecting PVE, then it should be balanced in a way which more accurately reflects power.

 

(Thank you for not posting a rant on how conclave is a PVP only thing, and putting some constructive feedback.)

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Just have two different ratings. Conclave for PvP, some other rating for Tacticals.

 

Tac rating for gear could be influenced by its required mastery rank. Which would therefore also require putting long-overdue mastery rank requirements on a lot of gear.

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Do you really want to go to those alerts with a lato?... do you think you could beat the previous alert (the one with the shield ospreys) with a lato? please leave me and my Brakk be.

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Agreed entirely. Weapon choice should involve some sort of multiplier to its conclave rating.

 

 

Do you really want to go to those alerts with a lato?... do you think you could beat the previous alert (the one with the shield ospreys) with a lato? please leave me and my Brakk be.

 

I think you're misunderstanding.

The issue is that the Lato costs almost as much as the Brakk to carry into the mission. It should be way cheaper than that.

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Agreed entirely. Weapon choice should involve some sort of multiplier to its conclave rating.

 

 

 

I think you're misunderstanding.

The issue is that the Lato costs almost as much as the Brakk to carry into the mission. It should be way cheaper than that.

My bad then, if that is the case then i completely agree, weaker weapons should have a lot less conclave ratings.

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Agreed entirely. Weapon choice should involve some sort of multiplier to its conclave rating.

 

Interesting idea, having the base weapon Conclave multiplicative with the mod total, instead of additive would result in a much fairer system.

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Conclave rating for TA need serious rework. Together with mods 2.0

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basically, the conclave measures the parts but not their potential, then, the conclave should masure the synergy? that doesnt seem fair to me, since the synergy is achieved by proper builds, thus is a player skill and that cant be punished with higher conclave

 

The conclave could add some numbers based on the weapon potential, wich is actually fixed by the game system as a total, under such logic, akmagnum should have a lot more conclave than lato

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The issue is that conclave has little to do with anything in the game as far as actual performance.

 

My main gripe about it is I have to fiddle incessantly to meet an artificial number to do the event. It's not that hard to do and the events are usually pretty easy, but it's just a nuisance.

 

I suppose the point is really to shake you (as the player) out of a rut and make you think and tailor your loadout to the tactical alert. On that level, it does succeed.

 

Last night's event had me doing the usual slash and burn to meet the 700pt limit. Basically, just drop everything but the primary (six forma Braton Prime) and equip a stripped out lvl27 Prova Vandal with only one zero rank mod. The 500pt limit definitely moved me out of my usual mindset and I finally had to equip my old Karak and a stripped and freshly forma'd secondary and the afore-mentioned Prova.

 

The upside of all the fiddling was I'd forgotten how much fun the Karak could be. I had a really good time using it again. The downside is now it has me thinking about pumping a whole lot of forma into the Karak.

 

It never ends.

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the 500pt limit definitely moved me out of my usual mindset and I finally had to equip my old Karak and a stripped and freshly forma'd secondary and the afore-mentioned Prova.

 

The upside of all the fiddling was I'd forgotten how much fun the Karak could be. I had a really good time using it again. The downside is now it has me thinking about pumping a whole lot of forma into the Karak.

 

 

Except why would you pump forma into your Karak? To equip more mods. What does adding more mods do? Increase the conclave cost. There's no real point in investing in older or less powerful weapons when the bulk of the rating is based on the mods rather than the weapon. My Karak is worth 285 points, but why would I use that when my Paris Prime is only 5 points more but has no down time between mags and hits like a deathstar? The current conclave system doesn't reward players for using weapons that they usually wouldn't consider, it just makes us strip off weapons we don't really need to keep using the ones we love.

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 I was thinking about the other issues with how people generally just remove most of their gear and take in something well overloaded to get through.  The conclave rating isn't just a bad reflection of actual power, but you can trick it anyway.  Take a gun and load it up, remove just about everything else and go with much lighter shields and you get through.

 

 Your concept that different guns don't have a proper change in conclave is a very real issue and a change probably should be implemented.  It's ridiculous to change your conclave rating by 10% or less and yet have double or more power.

 

 A multiplier would definitely make it more challenging to juggle your weapon into a tactical, but, unfortunately, it does seem more like an out of mission change rather then a gameplay improvement.  Fiddling with numbers while setting up your loadout is what we go through already, and while a change that reflects a real difference between weapons is needed, it still seems like it would just be a matter of people juggling the numbers still.

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It's the min/maxer in me. Lots of years of EQ, WoW, Diablo and the like.

 

As soon as you find something you like the urge strikes to maximize it. It's cool and all, but lets see what it can really do.

 

In my poor Karak's defense, I already know what it can do. It's the same (more or less) as my Braton Prime before the buff. I most likely won't bother forma'ing it to death, but the urge is always there...

 

I had fun despite myself and that's all to the good.

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We discovered this thread last week and felt that it was worth discussing so we did so on the latest Tenno Clock. Though having conclave restrictions are a really great way to play the game we're in agreement that it's too easy to bypass with with just a single great weapon.

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Except why would you pump forma into your Karak? To equip more mods. What does adding more mods do? Increase the conclave cost. There's no real point in investing in older or less powerful weapons when the bulk of the rating is based on the mods rather than the weapon. My Karak is worth 285 points, but why would I use that when my Paris Prime is only 5 points more but has no down time between mags and hits like a deathstar? The current conclave system doesn't reward players for using weapons that they usually wouldn't consider, it just makes us strip off weapons we don't really need to keep using the ones we love.

 

Because a bow is a far higher skill cap weapon.

 

If you notice an overwhelming amount of primary auto guns have very high conclave ratings compared to bows, snipers or semis. This is probably due to their ease of use with low margin for error, while a Bow. sniper or semis punishes missed shots far more often, especially considering when you got targets which are level 78 bullet sponges.

 

I can take my Dread or Latron Prime to a low CR alert without ever touching my frame and still have a very nice selection of copter weapons. In contrast if I bring my Boltor Prime, I have to drop a melee weapon or even a mod off the frame.

 

But Boltor Prime I can just spray and yawn. 

Bows I actually have to lead sometimes.

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But I think the problem is that it's trivialized because people can just choose a single weapon and go "spray and yawn". Though it's great having the option to do it how you want, it's meant to be a challenge to get a vanity item and thus fundamentally flawed if you can say you're yawning at any point during it.

 

fatpig84, do you not feel that having an option to take the best of the best primary while completely crippling yourself in frame, melee and secondary is not wrong?

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But I think the problem is that it's trivialized because people can just choose a single weapon and go "spray and yawn". Though it's great having the option to do it how you want, it's meant to be a challenge to get a vanity item and thus fundamentally flawed if you can say you're yawning at any point during it.

 

fatpig84, do you not feel that having an option to take the best of the best primary while completely crippling yourself in frame, melee and secondary is not wrong?

 

Personally I don't think it is any wrong.

 

That is what tactical alerts are meant to do, they are designed to make you think outside of your normal game play.

You normally have a full set of tools, but what if some of those tools are removed, how are you going to solve it ?

 

Do you hyper-specialized just by grabbing the highest DPS cannon you get, put as much tank mods you can and pray for the best, or you use your brains a bit more like using Nyx Chaos to turn off the shield drones on a level 78 capture target while you leisurely snipe him ?

 

That is what tactical alerts are about.

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Interesting point.

 

If Conclave begins affecting PVE, then it should be balanced in a way which more accurately reflects power.

 

(Thank you for not posting a rant on how conclave is a PVP only thing, and putting some constructive feedback.)

Conclave is literally just a gear score

 

Its not PvE or PvP specific

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The scoring is wonky, though. It doesn't seem to be based on anything but rarity and maybe how many forma have been pumped into something.

 

Hell, gearscore was borderline useless in WoW when it was a thing because someone had to make a judgment call on the scoring at some point and frequently got it wrong in regards to actual effectiveness.

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The scoring is wonky, though. It doesn't seem to be based on anything but rarity and maybe how many forma have been pumped into something.

 

Hell, gearscore was borderline useless in WoW when it was a thing because someone had to make a judgment call on the scoring at some point and frequently got it wrong in regards to actual effectiveness.

It needs a ton of work still

 

Ill add that to the thread i just made...

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Though scoring is "wonky", just adjusting the conclave values isn't going to resolve any issue. If people complain that the conclave for the boltor prime is too high after a change what are DE to do, change it back to the lower value? Maybe make it so that the Conclave restrictions have a higher cap? changing the numbers isn't going to mean anything if it can be easily done. What would be better is a change in mechanic where you have limited conclave per piece of equipment.

 

Conclave limits could be designed so that it's X amount for the weapon + Y amount for mods. The Y amount could be a % of the required Mastery Rank to use the weapon. Something like a boltor prime wouldn't get much mod capacity simply because it's MR-2 where as something like the Soma is MR-6. They can both use high amounts of conclave but the boltor prime would give far less mod capacity than the Soma.

 

In addition the whole conclave requirement can be better fixed if players can lower the rank of their mods which will reduce both their effectiveness and their conclave rating.

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I did propose that mk1-weapons and lato should have a discounted conclave rating that affects the conclave of the mods placed on it to an extent. https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/346662-special-buff-for-mk1s-and-lato/

 

But it didn't seem like a very popular idea.  They could rebalance the conclave rating on mods but not sure if that would do anything relevant.

 

Maybe change conclave rating restriction to be a maximum per weapon slot and companion slot but I might get some hate for that as it means going in with more but weaker gear.

 

Also not sure how DE intended "Tactical" alerts to challenge us.

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