The Problems With The Warframe Mods & Primes(Especially The Last Released Ones) And The Grindwall

[B0N3M4N]

Hello Warframe community,

 

as Warframe players(and beta testers) I think that we have the role to make to the devs see what's the right way for making this game better and what is actually not.

 

There's a big problem emerging patch after patch and what I want to make you see is the fact that the Grindwall it's getting higher: just think about mods like Redirection, Vitality, Serration, Hornet Strike. Mods already difficult to max out, where you see yourself obligated to farm many Rare Cores for reaching that so much searched rank 10, or making primes, difficult from the fact that the RNG is the most evil thing on this game, but it's not over, if you've noticed the last released mods like Transient Fortitude, or the last Primed Ones, are even more expensive to max out, needing more than the double of the amount of Rare Cores needed for Maxing out the old ones, same happened with the last prime parts, just watch your inventory and count how many pieces of Frost or Ember you have, then see how many pieces of Rhino, Loki or Nyx Prime you have(the last two seems like are even more difficult to get compared to the Rhino ones).

 

We talked many time ago with DE about how much difficult was for the new players reach the max rank of mods like Redirection and Vitality, but when they're gonna met these mods what's gonna happen?

 

For me the situation it's pretty much critical, I don't want to talk about the Mesa Waitwall cause there's another thread about it, but instead I want to point out the fact that patch after patch we're getting continously bashed by the Grindwall for the objectivies that a player would get on a game like this, so please DE instead of making people farm 400 Rare Cores for doing the last 2 ranks of Transient Fortitude or making them do for the 25th time the same Exterminate IV for dropping the Nyx Prime Helm why don't you think about some kind of solution? I mean now we have the Void Trader, so why we can't trade Prime Parts for other ones? And why don't you put inside of the game more powerful cores for making the grind easier or just reduce the amount of cores required for maxing out a Rank 10 Mod instead of increasing it?

 

I don't think that people here are having fun doing these kind of things, and as a gamer I'm searching some fun inside of a game. And if the fun will come through a challenge, then the challenge should be a REAL challenge, and not the ennesimal grind wall maded for making the illusion of this or the illusion of having a larger game content, cause after all this is nothing more than an house of cards, just a bit of wind and it will fall, sooner or later.

 

This is a critique with the central point of making the game better, so if you have some suggestions or something to add or say about this argument you're free to write it, however flames or people throwing s**t on this thread will be ignored at least by me.

[Wurdyburd]

I think the main issue here is the widespread completionism among the Warframe community.

Every time something new comes out, the community INSISTS that they must have complete, total access to it immediately. This in turn fuels the belief that from minute one of this game, you're working your way down a path where, at a certain pre-defined point, you should have everything owned and at the highest level.

 

While true that it's possible to achieve that, I don't believe there's a pre-determined point when you SHOULD have that.

 

Similar to how Syndicates take a long time to rank up, as does having a multi-forma library of weapons to choose from, you'd probably have a great deal of choice when and if you want to rank up Serration, Hornet Strike, Vitality, Redirection, the corrupted mods, and the new primed mods. Having limited resources means you have to choose when, and if you want to upgrade something, as well as consider which you'd benefit most from (for example, a Mag player would benefit highly from Redirection).

That means at MR7, a player could have a max rank Serration, but not have upgraded other mods too high, or spread their resources between Redirection and Vitality.

 

Having mods that eat up your fusion cores isn't some kind of punishment, it just adds diversity between players. Stop treating it like it's some kind of personal insult.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Wurdyburd

[ThePredicament]

^That.

 

The game obviously attracts collectors in varying degrees and those that need to min/max in every single match they play. The thing is the game isn't all about beginning and then the end, it's all about the hardships of getting there and feeling rewarded for it.

 

For this "grindwall" thing you are talking about, it's however impassable you make it to be. There are already solutions put into place that allow what you want done.

[-FV-Wsocks]

We eventually get the mods maxed out. That's the point. A brand new player can't really use maxed mods effectively anyway. They've got lower leveled frames and less mod capacity for not having potatoes. I've been playing for a while and have maxed everything I wanted so when the primed Continuity came out, I had enough cores to max it right away. Powerful mods require hours of playtime. I think that's perfectly fair. 

Suggestion: They could introduce TV void keys that drop "corrupted fusion cores" that give something like 2.5 the fusion energy but cost something like 5x the amount of credits to use. Completely arbitrary numbers for example, of course, but the point is corrupted cores could have higher energy output with a much higher drain on credits or some other drawback. 

[B0N3M4N]

For first thanks for the replies,

 

I think that I've understood what Wurdy want to say, I mean I can understand that this game actually is in beta, has no story and few quest which are not enough for creating they're basics from them, and for me the fact of doing something for obtaining a result after some time and then enjoying it is excactly on what it's based Warframe, but my point is while this is actually fine this system it's getting abused, cause from the fact that maybe DE it's thinking right now that making longer the wait increase the pleasure of getting the final result, and this thing have some limits for me where after these will get only boring.

 

Now I can say that I'm playing since the closed beta of this game, so I've seen it pratically born and grow until now, but still I don't have Serration Maxed, and seeing everytime doing the same routine PLUS doing it on an harder way with the new mods with the final results not really worth the time spent it's kinda sad. I can understand that we don't have any kind of story or whatsoever but we cannot make a game based ONLY on grinding for pleasure, and the more you go foward more is the grinding and so the pleasure, which is not like it's in reality.

 

We need to stay for now with this system but at the same time we need to put some LIMITS to this, as an example for Primed Mods:

 

1)Get to the void

2)Get Prime Parts(Not Everytime)

3)Sell to the kiosk

4)Do it again and get enough money for getting the mod

5)Get the mod with the money when the merchant is on the hub

6)Farm again for getting the fusion cores

7)Farm more fore getting more fusion cores

8)Max the mod

 

Actually I think that we can do better than this, as you can see the system is long and repetitive, and we need to get something more enjoyable than this, simply because we don't know for how many time the players are going to do this thing, cause there's gonna come the time when they'll see that what they're doing it's not fun(the principal objective of a game for me) and not worth they're time and they'll decide to put Warframe as another multiplayer grind based game on they're shelf.

 

Too many games like Warframe have failed to survive because of this system and I don't want to see this happening again, especially on a game and a company that have a big potential like this one.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Redskull94

[shadoWarbird]

While I agree with most of the posts in this thread, we do have to address whether or not grinding is a good thing, and whether or not we can take that too far.

 

Some people like to grind, and others don't. Is there a happy medium we can get to satisfy both players? Is it even possible to satisfy both at the same time?

 

I guess part of it is defined by what people call "fun". I personally enjoy the social aspects of playing with my friends, which is why I push more for clan stuff and maybe one day larger groups than 4 for missions (not necessarily all of them, but stuff like raids and stuff would be cool. That's why I got a lot of hype for the hubs.) Other people may not agree with me that the social stuff is what makes it fun for them.

 

I'm okay with the grind stuff, but I can see where the complaints would form that it's too much or repetitive. Though it's easy enough to say something isn't good, but the problem becomes how to resolve it, especially when it would appear that this game uses it as a central part of the game.

 

I'd say more, but I feel I'd go horribly off-topic. Especially when I start talking about the relationship between other factors like RNG.

[CY13ERPUNK]

really all we need is for rare fusion cores to have 10 ranks, like they used to b4 DE nerfed them down to 5 (which makes no sense btw)

 

previously there was an idea of consistency, but that went out the window once we started getting rank10 commons and uncommons and rank3 rares =/

 

common mods/cores would have 3 ranks

uncommon mods/cores would have 5 ranks

rare mods/cores would have 10 ranks

 

viola, makes sense right?

[shadoWarbird]

really all we need is for rare fusion cores to have 10 ranks, like they used to b4 DE nerfed them down to 5 (which makes no sense btw)

 

previously there was an idea of consistency, but that went out the window once we started getting rank10 commons and uncommons and rank3 rares =/

 

common mods/cores would have 3 ranks

uncommon mods/cores would have 5 ranks

rare mods/cores would have 10 ranks

 

viola, makes sense right?

 

Well, it would have. Until Legendary mods destroyed any chance of that working. Unless you propose rank 13 legendary mods or something. And then, people would be really mad about the grind factor.

[Wurdyburd]

Suggestion: They could introduce TV void keys that drop "corrupted fusion cores" that give something like 2.5 the fusion energy but cost something like 5x the amount of credits to use. Completely arbitrary numbers for example, of course, but the point is corrupted cores could have higher energy output with a much higher drain on credits or some other drawback. 

I'd prefer not to have another tower unless it could strengthen the drop tables. As it is, running T4 and getting 5x rare fusion cores as rewards for survival and defense suit that purpose well enough.

 

I think that I've understood what Wurdy want to say, I mean I can understand that this game actually is in beta, has no story and few quest which are not enough for creating they're basics from them, and for me the fact of doing something for obtaining a result after some time and then enjoying it is excactly on what it's based Warframe, but my point is while this is actually fine this system it's getting abused, cause from the fact that maybe DE it's thinking right now that making longer the wait increase the pleasure of getting the final result, and this thing have some limits for me where after these will get only boring.

That's... not really what I was saying.

As an example, take a different mmorpg, any one. Typically you're allowed to have one character, that has one class, with one available weapon type. Whether you're a Warrior, or a Sniper, this is all typically the same. Warframe allows us to delete and regain as many frames as we want, even with limited slots, while retaining that which makes them strong, the mods. In this sense, Warframe already has other mmorpgs beat, where if you start a second character, you have to start over from the beginning, and there's no progression overlap.

 

While true Warframe is severely lacking on story and quests and reasons for doing what we do, that's not a reason to say "level up everything super quick". What do you propose? DE cuts down all the difficult mods to nothing simply because it's easier? What happens when DE DOES introduce story and more quests? They kick the mods back up to where they used to be? The community would never hear the end of it.

Ultimately, DE isn't deciding the mod system to be 'fun', not really. Options can be fun, yes, but easily-gained strength isn't fun. That's just empty gratification. Having an item/mod that was super hard to level gives you a sense of accomplishment when you've finally done it.

 

Kids these days.

 

Now I can say that I'm playing since the closed beta of this game, so I've seen it pratically born and grow until now, but still I don't have Serration Maxed, and seeing everytime doing the same routine PLUS doing it on an harder way with the new mods with the final results not really worth the time spent it's kinda sad. I can understand that we don't have any kind of story or whatsoever but we cannot make a game based ONLY on grinding for pleasure, and the more you go foward more is the grinding and so the pleasure, which is not like it's in reality.

What a coincidence, I've also been playing since closed beta, and have all four of the primary 'difficult' mods maxed. What's your excuse?

Having been with the game for a long time doesn't qualify you for being high-tier in this game, you have to actually put in a significant number of hours.

And as I said in my original post: the fact you haven't levelled Serration means that you've spent those resources on other things. So now, you're balanced elsewhere, rather than in the thing you're complaining about.

Try dedicating all your future resources towards maxing Serration, and you'll have it before you know it.

 

 

Actually I think that we can do better than this, as you can see the system is long and repetitive, and we need to get something more enjoyable than this, simply because we don't know for how many time the players are going to do this thing, cause there's gonna come the time when they'll see that what they're doing it's not fun(the principal objective of a game for me) and not worth they're time and they'll decide to put Warframe as another multiplayer grind based game on they're shelf.

 

Too many games like Warframe have failed to survive because of this system and I don't want to see this happening again, especially on a game and a company that have a big potential like this one.

This ENTIRE GAME is long and repetitive. How can you wave your closed-beta privilege around and not know that.

The lack of point, as it were, is the reason people stop playing. So yes, Warframe needs further development to give people motivation for playing the game, but that's not going to be accomplished by docking the difficulty. That's absurd.

[B0N3M4N]

Grinding it's fine on a game unfinished like this, but it should be:

1) Limited

2) Substituted as sooner as possible by real ingame content, cause as I said before people will not stay here doing the same thing over and over again, or at least until they'll get bored and leave Warframe like another potential good game on they're shelf for 3-4 months or even more.

 

For Wurdyburd: Please stop calling this huge grind wall diffculty, difficulty doesn't come from things like this and if you have some kind of experience you should know it too, if you want some real difficulty on a game then add a challenge, something like an hard mission that rewards you with something that will allow you to get a special upgrade mod that's 10X a Rare Fusion Core or directly upgrade a determined rank of a mod or something like that, instead of doing for the x99 time the same T4 Survival spamming 4 all around the map, cause you perfectly know how much is boring and if we have to stay blinded so be it for you then, but I will not accept to see a game like this doing the same error that many other games already did.

 

Plus I've never blamed the difficult of the game, even for the fact that for me actually the game is fine or even too easy sometimes, and if you for difficult mean getting 400 rare cores spamming T4 then seems like I'm not the one who doesn't see really well what's the point of the discussion here.

Edited December 13, 2014 by Redskull94

[Wurdyburd]

Making a game takes a lot of effort. Declaring that DE should get a move on and up their game, literally, doesn't account for all the modelling and excessive coding that needs to be done.

I'm not white-knighting DE, but as someone who actually makes such content himself, it bugs me to see people think such activity to be so easy.

Though I do agree, DE needs a more coordinated focus on it's content, rather than spending months to make Archwing, a game mode that currently has absolutely 0 impact on the rest of the game, and the rest of the game has 0 impact on it now that frame multipliers have been removed. They could easily have shipped it as an entirely seperate game.

 

By the way, I'm not calling the grind wall difficulty, I'm stating that it's multiple grindwalls, not one. You view the game as every difficulty combined into a single obstacle, when it's actually several smaller obstacles, and players choose which one to tackle first. The lastest-released mods just happen to be an exceptionally tall wall, but not a wall that anyone mastery 8 or lower would ever consider attempting.

As far as your 'example': you literally want a difficult mission, that'll reward you something to make missions less difficult. That's... what. If you're looking for a tailor-made mission to get special equipment, not even paid, AAA games have that. You'd still be running the same recycled content that's been reassembled in a different way to get you to play the game for an extra 40 minutes.

 

Also, even though ultimate abilities do deal the most damage, they're not the most effective, DPS frames scale poorly at higher levels, until half an hour into T4 Survival they're a waste of energy. High-tier players learn to use their 1-3 abilities since they offer the most crowd control.

 

Difficult can also mean time-consuming.

If you don't consider T4 runs for rare cores, then why aren't you doing that.

Your original post is literally describing how something difficult/time consuming in the game sucks, so make it easier. So what do you even want? More difficulty? A different kind of difficulty? Or for things to get easier? Because you've sided with all three during this tread.

[B0N3M4N]

Thanks for the reply.

 

For the first part of the discussion I can say that I know how many time takes making more in game content, in fact I'm a computer programmer and I'm specialized on game programming, my objective right now it's not to saying DE to do more content immediately, but to report what are the actually problems of the game and what solution can be applied for making the game itself more enjoyable, I know that it's gonna take time but if no one will start to say something about that the positive change could never happen.

 

For the second part I just want some kind of content that doesn't make the things easier, but a content where Players are "forced" to use their abilities to go foward, I'm fine with the farm or how do you want to call it, but until a certain point. If you think about the difference between start and end game the only thing that split them is the amount of farm that you have to do for access to new content, which actually increase time after time, so the fact is that I don't want only the Farm Way for getting everything, I just want multiple options for getting to the same objective.

 

Let's just say that you started to play game and you want to get a weapon, but that weapon can be obtained only defeating a very difficult boss, I want to have the choice to risk everything and fight with my low equip against the boss, making everything more challenging but faster, or just levelling up and then getting against the boss, making the battle easy and with the weapon assured, but with a longer amount of time for getting the weapon cause of the preparation for the fight.

 

As many players may like the actual system I want to have multiple ways for getting to my objective, so if I have a better equip I can get to an higher level of challenge and get better loots instead of doing the mission that everyone do with the same reward that are getting the lowbies, but at the same time nothing will block the lowbies to get to the higher tier and try their luck for getting a better loot.

 

Another solution even if I prefer the first could be adding a sort of "Tokens" for every mission you will finish to the Void, with this Tokens after getting the right amount of them you can just talk to the classic NPC Shop/Terminal and trade them for what you was searching, so instead of doing 20 T4 Ext for getting a Nyx Prime Helm and still not getting anything you still should be able to get the Helm through the Tokens that you've acquired, same with the Fusion Cores. Just add more tiers of Fusion Cores that can be traded with the trader, this can be an actual solution for lower the grind required to get those Mods at Rank 10 without staying 3-4 hours each day sticked to Warframe on grinding Cores. If you think that this could be able to destroy the market then just make the traded Prime Parts/Cores untradable, this maybe will reduce a bit the amount of Plat that people are able to get through the Trade but still will help a lot the game to deal with this problem.

 

Even if it's a bit off topic, for getting an assured enjoyable content for me DE should need to watch the forums, really  the Fan Concept zone is FULL of New Warframe concepts, actual Warframes balance suggestions, Enemies, Bosses, Weapons, Solutions for the Damage Scaling on Weapons/Warframes, Sentinels, New Modes and Map concepts with Thousand of Upvotes, so instead of trying to make the ennesimal Archwing Mode, Limbo, Pre-Revamp Oberon or blind swinging the Nerf-Hammer on Warframes with already big problems like Ember they could be capable to get a content already approved by the community and put it inside of the game, making the players even more happy and exited to see what they wanted inside of the game getting in for real, happy to see that the community counts on this game, instead of making stealth nerfs and patch without saying anything like they're doing too many times on these months.