Nullifier's Bubble Isn't Affected By Damage, And Here's Proof

[geninrising]

Since DAY 1. We've complained very hard about this little guy.

DAY 10. Fix came saying "we changed bubble".

Still complains.

To these days we still complain.... and what did DE? Ignore complains in form of "This guy stay".

 

There are better ways to balance this guy.

Like, REMOVE HIM and leave him in DEV BUILD.

Actually DE is actively looking into the Nullifier bubble now. If people would read the DE employees posts they would know that Rebecca already looked in on a thread and commented about it.

[RagingRyu]

Or maaaaayybe you can give his bubble a punch through value (like 1.0) so you don't have to pop it.

[Nesit1]

I guess it's good idea, when their weakness is not depended from gun's damage. A whole new addition and the stuff to think about during tactic discussion.

Well. Vaykor Marelok user wants those bubbles become easier to deal with. Why am I not surprised?

 

Rakta Ballistica deals with 'em with ease. One-two bursts is always enough. Bubble shrinks constantly fast, non-stop. Try this weapon at T4D. Blight effect is incredibly strong.

[geninrising]

I guess it's good idea, when their weakness is not depended from gun's damage. A whole new addition and the stuff to think about during tactic discussion.

Well. Vaykor Marelok user wants those bubbles become easier to deal with. Why am I not surprised?

 

Rakta Ballistica deals with 'em with ease. One-two bursts is always enough. Bubble shrinks constantly fast, non-stop. Try this weapon at T4D. Blight effect is incredibly strong.

That is precisely why it needs to be looked at. ROF should not be factored in at all whatsoever because that automatically weights the enemy towards faster guns. I will say it again to be clear, a basic lvl 0 braton mk1 from the store should never kill anything faster than a paris prime or Opticor with 5 forma each.

[Nesit1]

That is precisely why it needs to be looked at. ROF should not be factored in at all whatsoever because that automatically weights the enemy towards faster guns. I will say it again to be clear, a basic lvl 0 braton mk1 from the store should never kill anything faster than a paris prime or Opticor with 5 forma each.

I can't agree with that. This is not enemy health or armor or shields by itself. This is NEW mechanic, NEW addition and NEW difficult. Behind those bubbles there is still crewman's health and shield to deal with. So level 0 braton is still useless here.

 

You can let your bros with fast weapons to deal with 'em, when you get your Snipetron Vandal and you are dealing with another guy.

One player to deal with ferrite armored guys.

One player to deal with alloy armored guys.

One player to deal with nullifiers's bubbles.

Teamwork, m8. This is what makes game more interesting. And I love those nullifiers.

 

"Players gonna play, haters gonna hate."

[StarScribe]

Indeed, I always find that Opticor is completely incapable of dealing with the nullifier shields regardless of damage it puts forward.

[Caliocerion]

I know that if I shoot a 10 round burst with my soma, it will shrink the same as if I shot it 40 times.

[Althran]

I can't agree with that. This is not enemy health or armor or shields by itself. This is NEW mechanic, NEW addition and NEW difficult. Behind those bubbles there is still crewman's health and shield to deal with. So level 0 braton is still useless here.

 

You can let your bros with fast weapons to deal with 'em, when you get your Snipetron Vandal and you are dealing with another guy.

One player to deal with ferrite armored guys.

One player to deal with alloy armored guys.

One player to deal with nullifiers's bubbles.

Teamwork, m8. This is what makes game more interesting. And I love those nullifiers.

 

"Players gonna play, haters gonna hate."

 

It's not  a new mechanic though.  It's broken.  If a braton can do the same job a hek or marelok can in faster time, it is not a mechanic anymore.  It's simply just 'broken'.

[CapedBaldy]

I'll take a little bit from what I wrote in another topic in reply to the mechanic that you're supporting.

 

Taking out the final result (DPS) from the equation and balancing the shield with only one of the few variable factors (RoF) that produce the final result is honestly, a bit sketchy. Especially when that variable fluctuates from something like 0.6 to 20.0. The fact that an unmodded Braton can outpace a well modded Marelok in breaking the shield bubble shows how sketchy using this variable is to balance.

 

There comes a point where tactics, at least, choices are worthless to debate because one choice far outclasses the other choice not because of their nature but because the other choice is being held back unreasonably. There's going to be huge balancing issues just because there is a difference of over 30x between the slowest firing weapons and the fastest ones. It's a whole new addition and stuff that makes us think about meaningful choices less. And no, just because you have a teammate watching your back doesn't mean it's acceptable either. Should I bring the Dread for the ability to kill heavies at range? Nah, Nullifiers, just bring Boltor Prime.

Edited January 14, 2015 by CapedBaldy

[TwiceDead]

It seems to count the amount of bullets hitting the shield more than it actually counts the damage itself. 

It also shrinks at a set speed, if you've emptied about 20 rounds into a shield in less than a second with Braton Prime for instance and it's still not down, stop shooting for a bit and it will eventually collapse. . . Which is bizarre on it's own. 

Edited January 14, 2015 by TwiceDead

[-VS-AtLasVegas]

You see absolutly no problem because you will run at 10~20 min mark and wont stay longer . But for ppl who actually can play longer and are better they have problem because of the massive size and protection that it offers in ALL enemies inside the bubble . Tell me how you counter knock down lock by Grineer while you eat ridicilsy high damage Bombard rockets /Lanka and heavy gunner? you cant you get locked down inside the bubble and you mostly die . Still cant realize it?still is our fault?  

 

I am actually the guy who doesn't leave before 1-1,5h even with a random team ;) (I better don't speak about coordinated teams to calm you down). You are here on the wrong road.

Ofc it is your fault - you are simply too slow. Enemies that can oneshot you are not a new problem - we deal with it for years on higher level tiers. And DE already made it as easy for you as it can possibly be - if you move quick enough, there is no way that the enemy can aim at you properly. What do you want more. Just learn to move.

Edited January 15, 2015 by -ExT-AtLasVegas

[ArbitUHM]

 

I'll take a little bit from what I wrote in another topic in reply to the mechanic that you're supporting.

 

 

There comes a point where tactics, at least, choices are worthless to debate because one choice far outclasses the other choice not because of their nature but because the other choice is being held back unreasonably. There's going to be huge balancing issues just because there is a difference of over 30x between the slowest firing weapons and the fastest ones. It's a whole new addition and stuff that makes us think about meaningful choices less. And no, just because you have a teammate watching your back doesn't mean it's acceptable either. Should I bring the Dread for the ability to kill heavies at range? Nah, Nullifiers, just bring Boltor Prime.

 

Actually, nullifiers actually increase "meaningful choice".  If automatics and sniper weapons were made to be equally effective against nullifier bubbles, it doesn't matter what weapon I choose.  I could have somebody with zero experience pick my weapons for me as long as I direct them to the rank 30 weapons.  It comes purely down to player preference.  That is pretty much the definition of a meaningless choice.

 

It's still totally a valid choice for one teammate to have a bow and another an automatic.  Bows have advantages against non-nullifier enemies that still make them worth choosing.  

 

Plenty of weapons that people are saying are not viable actually are, and it makes me wonder if people are even trying them or if they are just looking at the stats and saying NOPE GOTTA GO FAST.  Looking at the other thread where someone states that only like 16 weapons are viable... many of the weapons that were dismissed out of hand like the Akstilleto, Bronco Prime (actually pretty ideal given it has no damage falloff and decent reload speed), Tysis, and Twin Gremlins all work great, and I'm sure plenty more work fine, I just haven't tried them yet.  If you're willing to use a frame that has synergies with your weapon loadout, the choices expand further.  I've been liking Volt's electric shield because I can ignore the sniper shots and the shield grants infinite range to beam/flamethrower weapons and removes damage falloff from shotguns.

[BigPopaj]

-snip-

 

Teamwork, m8. This is what makes game more interesting. And I love those nullifiers.

 

"Players gonna play, haters gonna hate."

 

Exactly! Thanks a lot for bringing it to the point.

[Liminal]

Actually, nullifiers actually increase "meaningful choice".  If automatics and sniper weapons were made to be equally effective against nullifier bubbles, it doesn't matter what weapon I choose. 

You'd have a choice based on preference. If only one is really effective, there is no choice. When there is only one valid response the choice isn't real*. What's meaningful about taking an unranked frame to T4 survival? Of course I can choose to do that, but it doesn't mean it's viable and it means I am discouraged from doing so (as it should be in that case).

 

*I'm talking about loadout options, not semantics btw. These mechanics reduce the number of options available to us.

Edited January 14, 2015 by The_Doc

[God_is_a_Cat_Girl]

Actually, nullifiers actually increase "meaningful choice".  If automatics and sniper weapons were made to be equally effective against nullifier bubbles, it doesn't matter what weapon I choose.  I could have somebody with zero experience pick my weapons for me as long as I direct them to the rank 30 weapons.  It comes purely down to player preference.  That is pretty much the definition of a meaningless choice.

 

It's still totally a valid choice for one teammate to have a bow and another an automatic.  Bows have advantages against non-nullifier enemies that still make them worth choosing.  

 

Plenty of weapons that people are saying are not viable actually are, and it makes me wonder if people are even trying them or if they are just looking at the stats and saying NOPE GOTTA GO FAST.  Looking at the other thread where someone states that only like 16 weapons are viable... many of the weapons that were dismissed out of hand like the Akstilleto, Bronco Prime (actually pretty ideal given it has no damage falloff and decent reload speed), Tysis, and Twin Gremlins all work great, and I'm sure plenty more work fine, I just haven't tried them yet.  If you're willing to use a frame that has synergies with your weapon loadout, the choices expand further.  I've been liking Volt's electric shield because I can ignore the sniper shots and the shield grants infinite range to beam/flamethrower weapons and removes damage falloff from shotguns.

The problem being that the meaningful choice leans to the already popular choice.

Boltor Prime and the Soma (now prime too) aren't popular because of the Nullifiers, same goes for other weapons like the burston prime (burst, which can still melt the bubble pretty fast).

Many snipers are already in the space between auto/burst/semi and bows, which is where you don't deal as much damage per hit because (excluding the Vectis, which by itself is one of the strongest snipers) you have a magazine and don't need to "reload" as often (despite that the bows "reload" is really fast). Lanka works like a bow with a magazine and scope, being the problem that it has travel time, which makes it a rather bad sniper at sniping. Vulkar is pretty good with the New Loka mod, but then the scope zooms in way too much which makes it hard to use the damage bonus at closer ranges, and the damage still falls down really fast on endless missions, to the point that the marelok can still easily kill things but the Vulkar can't anymore.

I'm mentioning all this because snipers already have some issues, and aren't popular already, nullifiers only make it worse.

 

One could say that you should bring a rapid fire secondary, sure, it's a good idea to do so, but then we start missing the point of this 1 hit weapons.

They are strong weapons that can 1 hit enemies away, how can you use that on a team? Simple, target priority. You have a strong weapon with low RoF, you might as well use that power to 1 hit the strong enemies, so the other people in your team, that supposedly can't 1 hit them because they are using automatic rifles, can kill the lesser mobs without eating a million bullets from a heavy gunner.

But then while the nullifier is a strong enemy at long range, your long range strong weapon can't do a thing about them, not even the bubble.

While rapid fire weapons can deal with them, this brings other issues. Starting by how Nullifiers attract other enemies to their bubbles, which makes it harder to kill them first at closer ranges before the bubble appears again, and how the bubble makes you waste more ammo than it should, and that not only wastes your ammo, but the slow decrease rate of the bubble is also a cheap way to buy more time for the enemy to shoot at you.

 

Nullifiers also bring another thing which is the mess that can be generated by the increasing number of mobs. Regular mobs already make a big mess, but a mess of mobs inside a bubble, that's even worse.

Killing tons of enemies is fun and all, but later it just gets tiring to deal with the increasing mess. The game isn't asking you to be better or inventive, it's just asking to fire more bullets, which the nullifiers are the best at.

Which is pretty much why I'm not a fan of 8 player raid in Warframe, not with the current meta. It won't be that fun when it's just a mess of mobs all over the place. Now, if the raids offered mobs that made us be inventive and work as a team, then it might be better, which is what the nullifiers doesn't really offer, and when it does happen, it's in cases when someone is using a bow/sniper, and they are being screwed over a cheap mechanic.

[taiiat]

I can't agree with that. This is not enemy health or armor or shields by itself. This is NEW mechanic, NEW addition and NEW difficult. Behind those bubbles there is still crewman's health and shield to deal with. So level 0 braton is still useless here.

Nullifier Crewman are Trash Units.

so take a Braton, with only a Toxin Mod, and now you have the ultimate anti- Nullifier Weapon. you're shrinking the Shield at the maximum rate, and the Toxin will kill the Nullifier in like, two shots.

 

the Nullifier Crewman relies on his Nullifier Shield. he's a Glass Cannon. he's a Trash Unit with a very fancy gadget.

 

Actually, nullifiers actually increase "meaningful choice".  If automatics and sniper weapons were made to be equally effective against nullifier bubbles, it doesn't matter what weapon I choose.  I could have somebody with zero experience pick my weapons for me as long as I direct them to the rank 30 weapons.  It comes purely down to player preference.  That is pretty much the definition of a meaningless choice.

....

http://youtu.be/2gmvxMJTXug

 

 

anyways, what we have is a meaningless choice currently.

most Weapons can deal with the Enemies in however they deal with them just fine.

 

but Nullifier Shields (while i most definitely like the Enemy in concept) make meaningless choice.

Crits aren't calculated, so Crit Weapons are useless.

Shotguns are counted as one hit, but they rely on a flurry of pellets to be effective, so they're useless.

Weapons that shoot unreasonably fast will be just wasting Ammunition due to the maximum shrink rate per second, so they're silly.

Weapons that shoot quite slow, i.e. Precision Weapons, take a long time to shrink the Shield because they don't shoot fast enough, so they're okay but still bleh.

 

and then we have Weapons that shoot at a fairly high rate, deal a lot of Damage per shot, and aren't Shotguns or Crit Weapons.

these Weapons annihilate Nullifier Shields several times faster than anything else.

 

 

what was that about meaningful chioce?

Edited January 14, 2015 by taiiat

[dragonkingdx]

o.o I see nullifiers and RYNO them with kohm.

But anyway on to the point I wouldnt expect a fix anytime soon. As most wanna say make slower firing weapons viable they obviously overlook the damage that they can deal. If the shield were damaged based then 2-3 shots can take down a nullifier by a properly modded weapon like opticor/dread/paris/snipers/slower but powerful sidearms. By that standard high ROF would destroy it in 1 sec due to the cluster f of bullets and damage per bullet. (not including the max shrink rate because hey if you want one thing to be viable so must the next thing) In the end nothing has really changed but making higher ROF weapons turn nullifiers into a joke, while at the same time just making snipers and slower firing weaps viable.

 

Its not as easily balanced as people would love to believe. Crits/etc shouldnt be allowed on it because it makes crit weapons too viable. Yet people refer to the popular choices B. Prime and Soma prime. Yes those weapons are overused however their popularity should not be used just to say "well people are just gonna use this from now on and because I like my paris better I should have a better chance so I can compete"  I do not think there should be an equal viability ground for all weapons with enemies. Some should be inferior to others in certain situations. I hope DE makes an uber bullet sponge so ROF weapons are less useful as well overly preferring the weapons with the greatest damage per shot for ammo conservation purposes. Or something that takes 2 out of 3 shots fired and directs them in a random direction whilst a powerful single shot weap cant be effected by such a mechanic.

 

Limiting your options allows for more variability (as backwards as it sounds everyone tends to carry 1-2 famous overused weapons) Limiting what works on what even further allows a bigger diversity in what can be used. Such as nullifiers making snipers less viable, well now not everyone can carry a sniper can they? (in fact it is because soma and b prime are viable vs everything that they are so overused and popular leading to some aspect of a problem with everyone having the same thing) If more enemies were added to put up further roadblocks the game wouldnt be as cut and dry as bring this weap it will work for nearly everything. And turns into which weapon do I bring for a certain enemy type and provides a diversity of weapons among the players instead of pretty much copycat loadouts of soma/boltor prime or paris/dread/opticor. It would overall take time for such a thing to happen but making certain weapons/skills useless on certain opponents brings out more of a choose wisely for the situation feel. So its not as cut and dry as bring xx frame and you will be fine as long as you have a decent degree of dps and CC. (such a thing can bring an endgame closer in warframe as well)

 

The mechanic as it is now is meant to screw slower firing weapons (many of them can 1 shot things it takes a clip or 2 to down with a ROF weap) And I think that honestly is a good thing. It brings choices and consequences into the game even further than it is now. Heck people really dont do weapon checks when going into missions because its either the popular weapons (which yes does include the bows and slower firing weapons) or some stronger weapon and some fodder. Its mostly warframe checks, however I think this as it is adds to multiplayer purposes as such as each should have a role with regards to weapons just as much as they have roles for warframes and their skills. As someone stays on the lookout for nullifiers and takes the shield out first while the others do CC and support the team.

Edited January 14, 2015 by dragonkingdx

[CapedBaldy]

It grants players the illusion of choice by limiting certain weapons rather unreasonably.

 

When all weapon categories are viable, they might all get the job done reasonably well with varying degrees of effectiveness. If you look at it like that, then sure, go ahead and say there's no meaningful choice. Other players will see the difference in how these weapons play out with their respective strengths and weaknesses and know where the meaning lies in their choices.

 

Low RoF weapons have high burst damage, but are already gated by how often they can kill things due to their low rate of fire and are punished heavily for missing, especially those with Sniper Ammo. Keep in mind that the game loves to send hordes and hordes after you, so being gated by how often you kill is huge. High RoF weapons may have increased ammo consumption but they get the leisure of switching between targets at a whim and ease of usage even if they somehow need to use an entire clip to down a heavy, which I doubt. Misses are not penalized that much. They are the already the most versatile weaponry in the entire game. They are also the ideal choice for proc builds, which are very strong, especially if you mod for something like Viral and Radiation to cut down EHP of enemies and make them bullet magnets.

 

Is that not enough difference for meaningful choice and consequence already? Do we need enemies hindering weapon categories to help you make a choice?

[geninrising]

It grants players the illusion of choice by limiting certain weapons rather unreasonably.

 

When all weapon categories are viable, they might all get the job done reasonably well with varying degrees of effectiveness. If you look at it like that, then sure, go ahead and say there's no meaningful choice. Other players will see the difference in how these weapons play out with their respective strengths and weaknesses and know where the meaning lies in their choices.

 

Low RoF weapons have high burst damage, but are already gated by how often they can kill things due to their low rate of fire and are punished heavily for missing, especially those with Sniper Ammo. Keep in mind that the game loves to send hordes and hordes after you, so being gated by how often you kill is huge. High RoF weapons may have increased ammo consumption but they get the leisure of switching between targets at a whim and ease of usage even if they somehow need to use an entire clip to down a heavy, which I doubt. Misses are not penalized that much. They are the already the most versatile weaponry in the entire game. They are also the ideal choice for proc builds, which are very strong, especially if you mod for something like Viral and Radiation to cut down EHP of enemies and make them bullet magnets.

 

Is that not enough difference for meaningful choice and consequence already? Do we need enemies hindering weapon categories to help you make a choice?

This. In a game about choices(DE's words not mine) why are we being limited in our weapon selection on purpose? My guess is that they did not anticipate this strong of a following in the Low ROF category. 

 

o.o I see nullifiers and RYNO them with kohm.

But anyway on to the point I wouldnt expect a fix anytime soon. As most wanna say make slower firing weapons viable they obviously overlook the damage that they can deal. If the shield were damaged based then 2-3 shots can take down a nullifier by a properly modded weapon like opticor/dread/paris/snipers/slower but powerful sidearms. By that standard high ROF would destroy it in 1 sec due to the cluster f of bullets and damage per bullet. (not including the max shrink rate because hey if you want one thing to be viable so must the next thing) In the end nothing has really changed but making higher ROF weapons turn nullifiers into a joke, while at the same time just making snipers and slower firing weaps viable.

 

Its not as easily balanced as people would love to believe. Crits/etc shouldnt be allowed on it because it makes crit weapons too viable. Yet people refer to the popular choices B. Prime and Soma prime. Yes those weapons are overused however their popularity should not be used just to say "well people are just gonna use this from now on and because I like my paris better I should have a better chance so I can compete"  I do not think there should be an equal viability ground for all weapons with enemies. Some should be inferior to others in certain situations. I hope DE makes an uber bullet sponge so ROF weapons are less useful as well overly preferring the weapons with the greatest damage per shot for ammo conservation purposes. Or something that takes 2 out of 3 shots fired and directs them in a random direction whilst a powerful single shot weap cant be effected by such a mechanic.

 

Limiting your options allows for more variability (as backwards as it sounds everyone tends to carry 1-2 famous overused weapons) Limiting what works on what even further allows a bigger diversity in what can be used. Such as nullifiers making snipers less viable, well now not everyone can carry a sniper can they? (in fact it is because soma and b prime are viable vs everything that they are so overused and popular leading to some aspect of a problem with everyone having the same thing) If more enemies were added to put up further roadblocks the game wouldnt be as cut and dry as bring this weap it will work for nearly everything. And turns into which weapon do I bring for a certain enemy type and provides a diversity of weapons among the players instead of pretty much copycat loadouts of soma/boltor prime or paris/dread/opticor. It would overall take time for such a thing to happen but making certain weapons/skills useless on certain opponents brings out more of a choose wisely for the situation feel. So its not as cut and dry as bring xx frame and you will be fine as long as you have a decent degree of dps and CC. (such a thing can bring an endgame closer in warframe as well)

 

The mechanic as it is now is meant to screw slower firing weapons (many of them can 1 shot things it takes a clip or 2 to down with a ROF weap) And I think that honestly is a good thing. It brings choices and consequences into the game even further than it is now. Heck people really dont do weapon checks when going into missions because its either the popular weapons (which yes does include the bows and slower firing weapons) or some stronger weapon and some fodder. Its mostly warframe checks, however I think this as it is adds to multiplayer purposes as such as each should have a role with regards to weapons just as much as they have roles for warframes and their skills. As someone stays on the lookout for nullifiers and takes the shield out first while the others do CC and support the team.

This is actually very astute. Boltor P has one of the highest dps in the game, therefore it would be extremely fast to down a shield of any kind. However, There is nothing to say they cannot change a few values in the shields code to react differently based on the damage source.

[DawnFalcon]

Seems to shrink way faster when I shoot it with Brakk than it does Amprex.

 

Which is interesting.

[Althran]

Seems to shrink way faster when I shoot it with Brakk than it does Amprex.

 

Which is interesting.

 

might be because of amprex being crits only.

[drunkpunk222]

Some weapon damage become useless vs nullifier shield, you cant one shot even with nuclear weapon.

[Althran]

Actually in dark souls you have a fair chance with whatever weapon you choose. Thats exactly what makes dark souls. Warframe is the opposite here, you get your abilities taken away, or you get enemies that are just immune to certain things.

should have gone with: this isn't dark souls, you shouldn't be getting one shot by enemies left and right.

[Genoscythe]

should have gone with: this isn't dark souls, you shouldn't be getting one shot by enemies left and right.

You didnt play it, please dont make yourself look stupid by saying stuff that isnt right, in Dark Souls you dont get oneshot left and right unless you jump down cliffs or are very stupid.

[Althran]

You didnt play it, please dont make yourself look stupid by saying stuff that isnt right, in Dark Souls you dont get oneshot left and right unless you jump down cliffs or are very stupid.

 

I've played both games thank you, don't assume.  There are enemies that can practically one shot you and/or stunlock you to death such as the turtle knights, royal soldiers, corrosive/exploding undead and mimic chests.  Please check yourself.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Althran